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The F-35 can be a grave marker for the military-industrial complex.
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Jan 11, 2019 18:15
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Randarkman posted:Well, then you can praise yourself lucky that you haven't been reading or posting much in DnD or certain Games threads. At this point it's perhaps best if we leave this. I think the level of mainstream western and especially american discourse towards the USSR makes forum discussions about certain topics really toxic. People quickly start talking past each other and reading ideology into other people’s posts where it isn’t.
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Jan 11, 2019 18:15
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Halloween Jack posted:The F-35 can be a grave marker for the military-industrial complex. Pretty unlikely since they’ve built 360 already and Japan/Israel increased their orders, not the other way around.
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Jan 11, 2019 18:19
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EvilMerlin posted:So the south waged WAR against the US Government. To be fair, they also had bad points 
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Jan 11, 2019 18:23
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Randarkman posted:It's not much of a derail isn't it? And it is talking about military history. It got the last thread closed, dude. And as such I am staying well out of this one til we get back on topic.
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Jan 11, 2019 18:24
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feedmegin posted:It got the last thread closed, dude Pretty much this. I also suggest everyone move on.
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Jan 11, 2019 18:27
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Not by a mod, by a salty OP
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Jan 11, 2019 18:29
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zoux posted:What's the most recent piece of materiel deemed worthy of preservation? Whatever the last ship decommissioned from the USN was. The Navy is very conscious about that stuff and sends a crew through each ship as it’s decommissioned to remove the commissioning plaque, notable artifacts, etc. Obviously you’re limited in exactly how much of a Spruance you can cart off to stick in a warehouse but they do a pretty decent job of preserving some neat stuff. They have a whole warehouse in Virginia (I think. Might be Maryland) just full of that stuff preserved more or less properly (it used to be more of a poo poo show but they’ve really been focusing on getting it right the last few decades). Plus they’re actively looking for more interesting bits. One I saw recently in a non public display was a prosthetic leg from a seal who went back into service after losing the original. Had the craziest paint job that was a mix of  and  like, literal crying eagles and flags and death metal skeletons. It was pretty cool and the dude who wore it into combat was a legit bad rear end.
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Jan 11, 2019 18:30
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feedmegin posted:It got the last thread closed, dude. And as such I am staying well out of this one til we get back on topic. Alright. I may have been slightly confused as to what the derail was back when I was making that reply though as I kind of believed we were discussing why the Soviet alliance proposal (such as it was) was turned down by the Allies in 1939. I'm guessing it's the more general issues which made that come up which got the last thread closed rather than that specific discussion. Because I can't really believe why that by itself would cause such a heated discussion, because as far as I see it the Allies had perfectly understandable reasons to turn down the Soviet proposal/feeler, you may agree or disagree with them, but they aren't hard to understand. Though I'll try to pipe down about that, as reading back it seems that itself only kind of came up as part of a larger derail(?) and it's just the kind of stuff I like to discuss. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Jan 11, 2019 |
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Jan 11, 2019 18:31
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Cyrano4747 posted:Plus they’re actively looking for more interesting bits. One I saw recently in a non public display was a prosthetic leg from a seal who went back into service after losing the original. Had the craziest paint job that was a mix of I think I've mentioned before that I got to strip parts off of the old ships up in Suisun Bay, and I also did time on Navy troopships. Some of their interior murals were pretty epic. Most mess decks have something on the walls. (er, bulkheads) Commands are okay with it (morale!) and it lets the sailors see some color besides grey. A quick look with google can dig up some pretty crazy navy ship murals. Apparently this is painted somewhere in the USS Theodore Roosevelt:  The USS Pampanito - the museum submarine - I worked at had a vargas-style pin-up girl painted inside one of the tool lockers in the compartment under the periscopes where the hi-pac was; the paint was faded enough and it was hidden away well enough that I'd bet that the painting has been there since WW2. I remember the nuclear submarine USS Indianapolis had Indy 500 race-car themed stuff all over when I got a tour in the late 90's. The plates used in the mess hall had checkered flags on them.
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Jan 11, 2019 18:45
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zoux posted:What's the most recent piece of materiel deemed worthy of preservation? It's impossible to say. There's a lot more museums out there now that are willing to take whatever the military decides to dump, so depending where you go you can easily find, say, bulletproof vests or IED debris from Iraq or Afghanistan. The bar for getting into the Smithsonian is obviously a bit higher, but even then you'll find stuff like a Predator drone on display in Air and Space. [Actually, fun fact about Air and Space: When it comes to military aircraft, they're not actually allowed to have any aircraft on display that are still in active service—in other words, no Eagles, Hornets, or Warthogs (The Tomcat got in right after it was retired in 2006). The only 'exception' is the XF-35A, which got classified as a prototype so they could throw it into Udvar-Hazy]
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Jan 11, 2019 18:52
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Acebuckeye13 posted:It's impossible to say. There's a lot more museums out there now that are willing to take whatever the military decides to dump, so depending where you go you can easily find, say, bulletproof vests or IED debris from Iraq or Afghanistan. One of the sad things about working at the museum was driven by the fact that we just did not have enough storage space for artifacts, let alone display space. We would regularly have people dropping off things like "grandfather's old WWII sailor uniform" with the hopes that we'd put it on display. We just couldn't - again, we didn't have space for what we had. Generally the museum director would accept it, but make it clear that we couldn't promise that we'd be able to put it out.
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Jan 11, 2019 19:00
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Acebuckeye13 posted:It's impossible to say. There's a lot more museums out there now that are willing to take whatever the military decides to dump, so depending where you go you can easily find, say, bulletproof vests or IED debris from Iraq or Afghanistan. The bar for getting into the Smithsonian is obviously a bit higher, but even then you'll find stuff like a Predator drone on display in Air and Space. I think I was overly broad, I meant, is there a lot of post-WWII stuff that we'd put in the same category as Enola Gay or Memphis Belle, or even USS Texas or USS Intrepid, that we've chose to preserve.
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Jan 11, 2019 19:23
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zoux posted:I think I was overly broad, I meant, is there a lot of post-WWII stuff that we'd put in the same category as Enola Gay or Memphis Belle, or even USS Texas or USS Intrepid, that we've chose to preserve. Very different matter for aerospace material in a broader sense, of course.
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Jan 11, 2019 19:27
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Comrade Gorbash posted:Speaking in terms of military hardware, I don't think there are too many post-WW2 items preserved for their specific historical importance, as opposed to being type-specimens. Yeah I remember it being a BFD about who was going to get the remaining orbiters after they shut down the shuttle program. Incidentally the most recently decommissioned USN ship was the USS Vandegrift, a Perry class FFG, in 2015
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Jan 11, 2019 19:30
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Comrade Gorbash posted:Speaking in terms of military hardware, I don't think there are too many post-WW2 items preserved for their specific historical importance, as opposed to being type-specimens. Again you see it with a lot of smaller stuff. I’m not talking tanks and planes but the collections of the services curate that kind of thing for even very recent stuff - GWOT etc. Maybe not entire vehicles that did a thing, but smaller artifacts abound.
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Jan 11, 2019 19:38
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Acebuckeye13 posted:It is worth noting that while very few people were really thinking about preservation in the postwar era, there were exceptions. The nascent US Air Force in particular did make a big effort to try and preserve notable aircraft where they could, which is why Memphis Belle, Flak Bait, and Enola Gay are all still around. The biggest problem was really that even when people were interested in preserving things, the money and space just didn't really exist—the military/aviation museum is a pretty modern concept, and even now there's more tanks and planes looking for a good home than there are facilities capable of handling them. I still can't get over that they didn't preserve the Big E.
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Jan 11, 2019 19:57
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Halloween Jack posted:The F-35 can be a grave marker for the military-industrial complex. How so? 355 of them currently in service around the globe. 2,663 to be purchased by the US Possibly 100 for AU (72 in the initial order) 138 for the UK 120 for Turkey Possibly 100 for Japan Possibly 75 for Israel And on and on. The F-35 is a success for Lockheed-Martin.
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Jan 11, 2019 19:58
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EvilMerlin posted:Genocide: the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation. This is a broken definition of genocide. Genocide is defined as atrocities or social policies conducted with the intention of "destroying" a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. It is a crime that is targeted towards a group, and not individuals. That is, the deliberacy of act(s) in question is irrelevant, what is important is the intent behind the act(s). Really, to imply that any act leading to mass death could possibly be "undeliberate" is ridiculous anyways. The rationale for a genocidal act is to destroy the victimized group. Political purges are not genocides, and never could be. Unless you mean to argue that the Soviets were trying to destroy Mongolians as a group. The Soviet-caused famines are much more controversial, and afaik the question what the Soviets intended is still up in the air. The difference between brutal, ruthless and indefensible agricultural policy, and a policy of genocide is whether or not the Soviets formed policies intended to kill millions of Ukrainians, Kazakhs, or Russian peasants, or anybody else who died as a result of collectivization.
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Jan 11, 2019 19:59
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Taerkar posted:I still can't get over that they didn't preserve the Big E. I think it was more a question about the 8 reactors on board. Not so easy to keep a nuclear ship around once you are done with it.
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Jan 11, 2019 19:59
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On reflection, we probably have a few more incredibly terrible and expensive weapons systems to cycle through before the whole thing collapses.
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Jan 11, 2019 20:00
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:This is a broken definition of genocide. That is the MW definition of Genocide. The Soviets WERE trying to destroy the Ukrainians, Mongolians, or just about any other group that had its own distinct culture and language in the name of the Soviet Union. The famines were just one of the tools used by the Soviet Union to control.
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Jan 11, 2019 20:02
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Halloween Jack posted:On reflection, we probably have a few more incredibly terrible and expensive weapons systems to cycle through before the whole thing collapses. Yeah you KNOW there are crazy SOBs that are trying to figure out how to make antimatter weapons... They will end up making nukes look like firecrackers.
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Jan 11, 2019 20:03
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EvilMerlin posted:I think it was more a question about the 8 reactors on board. Not so easy to keep a nuclear ship around once you are done with it. CV-6, not CVN-65.
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Jan 11, 2019 20:04
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EvilMerlin posted:Yeah you KNOW there are crazy SOBs that are trying to figure out how to make antimatter weapons... They will end up making nukes look like firecrackers. No radiation either : /
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Jan 11, 2019 20:05
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Taerkar posted:I still can't get over that they didn't preserve the Big E. goddamn New York schoolchildren couldn't cough up enough quarters 
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Jan 11, 2019 20:06
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EvilMerlin posted:The F-35 is a success for Lockheed-Martin. Like the debacle of the TFX, the united states has bruteforced its way through terrible procurement choices by just dumping mythical amounts of money on the program.
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Jan 11, 2019 20:16
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Acebuckeye13 posted:The biggest problem was really that even when people were interested in preserving things, the money and space just didn't really exist Yeap. Even though I love seeing old hardware, this seems very much a
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Jan 11, 2019 20:21
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EvilMerlin posted:That is the MW definition of Genocide. MW definition? What? Your definition of genocide is garbage that would include the bombing of Hamburg, or the Vietnam War as a genocide. I don't know why you even use the word if you don't give the slightest thought about what it even means.
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Jan 11, 2019 20:25
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Here's one for the thread https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1083804348658970625
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Jan 11, 2019 20:26
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EvilMerlin posted:Yeah you KNOW there are crazy SOBs that are trying to figure out how to make antimatter weapons... They will end up making nukes look like firecrackers. CERN posted:Can we make antimatter bombs? zoux posted:No radiation either : / I think you mean "No long-lived radiation." Matter-antimatter explosions produce quite a lot of radiation, that being the point.
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Jan 11, 2019 20:28
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To make an antimatter bomb you'd have to spend half of the energy the bomb would release, to create the antimatter (assuming you could somehow produce it at 100% efficiency). For a nuclear weapon the energy's already there, helpfully packed in to the heavy nuclei. Not to mention that once you've created antimatter you then have the problem of keeping it from exploding until you want it to.
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Jan 11, 2019 20:36
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zoux posted:Here's one for the thread Are there any USN garbage trows?
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Jan 11, 2019 20:38
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Taerkar posted:Are there any USN garbage trows? I was going to say some kind of SIGNIT Spy boat but I don't know what those look like. Maybe a spy boat disguised as a garbage trow? Kind of like how the Russians used nondescript merchant ships so spy on the entrances of US ports during the cold war?
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Jan 11, 2019 20:40
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Taerkar posted:Are there any USN garbage trows? Renaming one of the Operation CHASE ships after him would be fitting, I think.
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Jan 11, 2019 20:42
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zoux posted:Here's one for the thread  e: beaten
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Jan 11, 2019 20:44
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:MW definition? What? Mirriam Webster. EvilMerlin is using the colloquial definition of genocide, which is given when you type it into google  Needless to say, treating genocide as synonymous with 'massacre' and 'indiscriminate killing' is deeply problematic, when the term has a very definite meaning in historical research and international law. So is the declaration that having erased the intent aspect of genocide, all cases of mass death are equivalent. The equivocation of the Soviets and the Nazis thus follows from this kind of wilful blindness. http://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.html For what it's worth, MW does not participate in this misuse of the term genocide. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/genocide Fangz fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Jan 11, 2019 |
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Jan 11, 2019 20:46
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aphid_licker posted:They should name an electronic surveillance ship after him 
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Jan 11, 2019 20:47
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GotLag posted:To make an antimatter bomb you'd have to spend half of the energy the bomb would release, to create the antimatter (assuming you could somehow produce it at 100% efficiency). For a nuclear weapon the energy's already there, helpfully packed in to the heavy nuclei. What if I made a hydrogen bomb out of anti-plutonium and anti-deuterium? Checkmate, doubters!
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Jan 11, 2019 20:48
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Not an argument! Even worse efficiency, as some of the antimatter will be converted to energy in the nuclear explosion, without combining with an equal amount of normal matter.
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Jan 11, 2019 20:50
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