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yeah i dont necessarily mean straight up fake news, breitbart doesnt really do that, but just raw angry disingenious agitprop news that doesnt try to be Smart like every other socialist media outlet.
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Jan 11, 2019 22:29
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:yeah i dont necessarily mean straight up fake news, breitbart doesnt really do that, but just raw angry disingenious agitprop news that doesnt try to be Smart like every other socialist media outlet. yeah that works. the other aspect of it is pretending to be neutral. every socialist entity is SOCIALIST NEWS/ANALYSIS, while half of the goons of the right puts on the "I'm an independent that takes everybody to task!" act purely for the sake of uninitiated people seeing them while channel surfing or a clip on a social media feed while still being extreme right without conceding anything to even the center-right. I say be a communist and pretend to be centrist, completely in name only, and see what happens.
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Jan 11, 2019 22:34
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Graphic posted:yeah that works. Capturing the 'reasonable centrist' rhetoric would be extremely lol I support this strategy entirely.
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Jan 11, 2019 22:36
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We even already have an advantage in that we can talk poo poo on both democrats and republicans.
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Jan 11, 2019 22:37
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Yea, I've said before how i want a Marxist version of The Economist.
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Jan 11, 2019 22:42
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I am a centrist: both the extremes (anarchists and MLs) need to meet in the middle imo.
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Jan 11, 2019 22:44
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GunnerJ posted:I am a centrist: both the extremes (anarchists and MLs) need to meet in the middle imo.
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Jan 11, 2019 22:44
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GunnerJ posted:I am a centrist: both the extremes (anarchists and MLs) need to meet in the middle imo. 
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Jan 12, 2019 00:34
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some kind of united front, even
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Jan 12, 2019 00:51
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I've always felt Trotskyism would probably be vastly more palatable and probably even hegemonic if it was just the ideology, scrubbed of the man himself and thus all of the historical grudges that come with it, most of which seem to me the product of cargo cult mindset more than anything truly political it really does stand at the natural center between authoritarian and anarchist leftism
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Jan 12, 2019 00:53
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATb7CXX-Kc0
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Jan 12, 2019 01:06
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I want to preface this by saying that reperations is a necessary part of any socialism in the US. I like Adolf Reed but he's definitely referenced a lot of the time as a way to dodge discussion of racism.Pener Kropoopkin posted:"Decolonization" means dismantling the colonial relationship between the "wretched" of America and the corporate-state, where redundant populations are ghettoized and alienated from their own governments, and people who live in areas that mainly serve primary extraction industries are similarly disenfranchised to ensure the outflow of value from their regions to the control of corporate interests and their investors. These places are internal "colonies" of the settler-state, where the economy is structured from top to bottom to maximize the exploitation of dispossessed and low skill workers. They exist only to be exhausted of resources & labor, and then discarded. This sounds good, but I'm not sure it matches the definition of decolonization used by most people in the US. Like, the paper "Decolonization is Not a Metaphor" which I've seen referenced the most online with regards to decolonization rhetoric today, explicitly disavows Marxism or equating different oppressed as all colonized. Here are some quotes from it: quote:Colonialism is not just a symptom of capitalism. Socialist and communist empires have also been settler empires (e.g. Chinese colonialism in Tibet). “In other words,” writes Sandy Grande, “both Marxists and capitalists view land and natural resources as commodities to be exploited, in the first instance, by capitalists for personal gain, and in the second by Marxists for the good of all” (2004, p.27). Capitalism and the state are technologies of colonialism, developed over time to further colonial projects. Racism is an invention of colonialism (Silva, 2007). The current colonial era goes back to 1492, when colonial imaginary goes global quote:A more nuanced move to innocence is the homogenizing of various experiences of oppression as colonization. Calling different groups ‘colonized’ without describing their relationship to settler colonialism is an equivocation, “the fallacy of using a word in different senses at different stages of the reasoning" (Etymonline, 2001). In particular, describing all struggles against imperialism as ‘decolonizing’ creates a convenient ambiguity between decolonization and social justice work, especially among people of color, queer people, and other groups minoritized by the settler nation-state. ‘We are all colonized,’ may be a true statement but is deceptively embracive and vague, its inference: ‘None of us are settlers.’ Equivocation, or calling everything by the same name, is a move towards innocence that is especially vogue in coalition politics among people of color. quote:The Occupy movement for many economically marginalized people has been a welcome expression of resistance to the massive disparities in the distribution of wealth; for many Indigenous people, Occupy is another settler re-occupation on stolen land. The rhetoric of the movement relies upon problematic assumptions about social justice and is a prime example of the incommensurability between “re/occupy” and “decolonize” as political agendas. The pursuit of worker rights (and rights to work) and minoritized people’s rights in a settler colonial context can appear to be anti-capitalist, but this pursuit is nonetheless largely pro-colonial. That is, the ideal of “redistribution of wealth” camouflages how much of that wealth is land, Native land. In Occupy, the “99%” is invoked as a deserving supermajority, in contrast to the unearned wealth of the “1%”. It renders Indigenous peoples (a 0.9% ‘super-minority’) completely invisible and absorbed, just an asterisk group to be subsumed into the legion of occupiers... This isn't me grabbing some radlib quotes off twitter, this paper is pretty influential and has been cited over 400 times. When speaking about decolonization, most people today are referencing ideas like this more than Fanon. While I agree with a lot of how Indigenous people are super oppressed in settler colonial states, these politics seem unable to actually address that oppression. It evens places other oppressed nationalities at odds with the empowerment of Indigenous nations, let alone trying to find a way to radicalize white workers. It sort of reminds me of Afro-pessimism, in that I appreciate how the theory describes the oppression of a certain group, but it offers no path for empowerment or liberation Again, I appreciate your definition of decolonization and support it. I just worry that most people who use the term are not using it in such a way.
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Jan 12, 2019 02:09
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Mr. Lobe posted:I've always felt Trotskyism would probably be vastly more palatable and probably even hegemonic if it was just the ideology, scrubbed of the man himself and thus all of the historical grudges that come with it, most of which seem to me the product of cargo cult mindset more than anything truly political
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Jan 12, 2019 02:11
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For social justice movements, like Occupy, to truly aspire to decolonization nonmetaphorically, they would impoverish, not enrich, the 99%+ settler population of United States. lmao
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Jan 12, 2019 02:13
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pol pot liberalism
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Jan 12, 2019 02:14
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Atrocious Joe posted:This isn't me grabbing some radlib quotes off twitter, this paper is pretty influential and has been cited over 400 times. When speaking about decolonization, most people today are referencing ideas like this more than Fanon. Fanon is ignored precisely because he elucidated a genuine revolutionary politics against colonialism, but more importantly clarified the functions of colonialism through its relationship between settlers and the "wretched." He didn't romanticize natives or the indigenous because they are people like anybody else, and no matter how righteous their cause towards liberation that didn't eliminate the threat of reactionary tendencies. It's too inconvenient for those who want to romanticize the indigenous as a uniquely aggrieved people specially entitled to justice above all others. Like: quote:The pursuit of worker rights (and rights to work) and minoritized people’s rights in a settler colonial context can appear to be anti-capitalist, but this pursuit is nonetheless largely pro-colonial. That is, the ideal of “redistribution of wealth” camouflages how much of that wealth is land, Native land. In Occupy, the “99%” is invoked as a deserving supermajority, in contrast to the unearned wealth of the “1%”. It renders Indigenous peoples (a 0.9% ‘super-minority’) completely invisible and absorbed, just an asterisk group to be subsumed into the legion of occupiers... It's impossible to interpret this as anything other than native revanchism.
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Jan 12, 2019 02:29
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:For social justice movements, like Occupy, to truly aspire to decolonization nonmetaphorically, they would impoverish, not enrich, the 99%+ settler population of United States. what the gently caress is their definition of the 'settler population'? my family is Spanish and German but we're largely below the poverty line. what wealth have we stolen exactly, except in the general sense that all Europeans have
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Jan 12, 2019 02:33
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We are the 99%. Exterminate all the brutes.
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Jan 12, 2019 02:54
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The immediate and obvious problem with restoring native sovereignty to the land is, natives aren't a monolith. Each tribe has its own separate ancestral claims, and restoring them means a balkanization of territory into separate tribal nations, with some lands being richer and more productive than others. Plus who is going to work the land? Native population rolls have been stricken over time so much that many tribes barely even register more than a few thousand people. Would Indian nations work like a Gulf monarchy, where a minority of native citizens live off the backs of imported servant labor? And if they're only talking about restoring sovereignty to the Indian Nations as-is, then that's also pointless because the reservations were marked out because they were considered the most worthless lands for the purposes of settlement. Just because pre-Colombian people didn't observe private property, that doesn't mean national territoriality is something worth returning to. The bottom line is, there's no genuine basis for justice without socialization of all land and production, and ignoring the material realities of these issues is the only way they can maintain this kind of nativist romanticism. Marxism is simply too inconvenient to them. Pener Kropoopkin fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Jan 12, 2019 |
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Jan 12, 2019 03:02
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This is a little disorienting because ime it's the MLs who are typically the most apt to cozy up to a national liberation line that edges into this kind of territory. Or am I just not distinguishing well enough between different strands of national liberation politics?
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Jan 12, 2019 03:07
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Mr. Lobe posted:I've always felt Trotskyism would probably be vastly more palatable and probably even hegemonic if it was just the ideology, scrubbed of the man himself and thus all of the historical grudges that come with it, most of which seem to me the product of cargo cult mindset more than anything truly political Trotsky was great, Trotskyism is great. The problem is Trotskyists. BrutalistMcDonalds posted:the worst thing that happened to trotskyism was trotsky's assassination Yeah the tendency and the world would be much better off if he died of the fever in his 90s.
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Jan 12, 2019 03:08
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GunnerJ posted:This is a little disorienting because ime it's the MLs who are typically the most apt to cozy up to a national liberation line that edges into this kind of territory. Or am I just not distinguishing well enough between different strands of national liberation politics? It gets a lot messier when you're talking about national liberation in a mere administrative colony, vs. national liberation in a settler-state.
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Jan 12, 2019 03:14
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sounds like we got a goon project on our hands someone buy a domain and set up a wiki
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Jan 12, 2019 04:58
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I’ll make the logo.
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Jan 12, 2019 04:59
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we must make new nation-states tied to the biological substance of all colonized people, property rights for victim nations over perpetrators. Allow historic lands and soil to once again be tied to the blood of a people oppressed for centuries by an international cabal of colonizers.
HorrificExistence fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Jan 12, 2019 |
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Jan 12, 2019 05:21
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DNA tests must be carried out on all Europeans and those with over 90% Yamnaya DNA are to be treated as settlers. Indo-Europeans back to the steppe now!
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Jan 12, 2019 05:31
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GunnerJ posted:This is a little disorienting because ime it's the MLs who are typically the most apt to cozy up to a national liberation line that edges into this kind of territory. Or am I just not distinguishing well enough between different strands of national liberation politics? The goal should not be "national liberation." It should be ending actual current genocides that are still happening, i.e. against Native Americans, Australian aboriginals, perhaps Turkish Kurds.
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Jan 12, 2019 05:36
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watching this report on ukraine and at the end: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnI71Av9m88&t=298s
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Jan 12, 2019 05:55
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HorrificExistence posted:The goal should not be "national liberation." It should be ending actual current genocides that are still happening, i.e. against Native Americans, Australian aboriginals, perhaps Turkish Kurds. National liberation made sense when there was a Second World to steer post-colonial states towards socialism,, but now there's no Second World and everything is post-colonial except for all the surviving settler-states. Nationalism has reached the absolute ends of its political efficacy, since the national bourgeois are increasingly becoming an international bourgeois.
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Jan 12, 2019 06:19
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I'm not a trot but 'national liberation' is imo, a concept that stopped being relevant after WW2. I think like Barcelona and Quebec should be free and poo poo, but also that dissolving the bougioise state and replacing it with a worker's state would accomplish that anyway
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Jan 12, 2019 06:22
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Larry Parrish posted:I'm not a trot but 'national liberation' is imo, a concept that stopped being relevant after WW2. I think like Barcelona and Quebec should be free and poo poo, but also that dissolving the bougioise state and replacing it with a worker's state would accomplish that anyway After World War 2 a third of the world was still under the thumb of the British & French empires.
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Jan 12, 2019 06:26
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:After World War 2 a third of the world was still under the thumb of the British & French empires. theoretically, the galaxy brain decolonialization take would credit the Axis Powers for destabilizing their holdings
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Jan 12, 2019 06:43
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Victory Position posted:theoretically, the galaxy brain decolonialization take would credit the Axis Powers for destabilizing their holdings The Japanese originally billed themselves as anti-colonialists, that kinda fell apart with the whole genocide thing they did in china though!
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Jan 12, 2019 06:50
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HorrificExistence posted:The Japanese originally billed themselves as anti-colonialists, that kinda fell apart with the whole genocide thing they did in china though! ah, but the Han were also imperialist, and therefore
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Jan 12, 2019 07:16
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i may be misremembering because 12 year old forum minutiae, but the first time i heard of people who believed the rape of nanking was a hoax was from LF and a few people who "ironically" believed it
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Jan 12, 2019 07:18
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smarxist posted:i may be misremembering because 12 year old forum minutiae, but the first time i heard of people who believed the rape of nanking was a hoax was from LF and a few people who "ironically" believed it I think you'll find that Imperial Japan was in fact woke
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Jan 12, 2019 07:33
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much like the ottoman empire, the co-prosperity sphear... the mideast thread in dnd got suicidebombed
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Jan 12, 2019 08:04
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:ah, but the Han were also imperialist, and therefore When the Japanese defeated the Russian navy in 1905 they started the greatest revolution of all time. Tōgō Heihachirō did more to bring about communism than lenin.
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Jan 12, 2019 08:09
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Pretty sure that's just a leaked Red Alert poster
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Jan 12, 2019 14:33
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Atrocious Joe posted:Socialist and communist empires have also been settler empires (e.g. Chinese colonialism in Tibet) 
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Jan 12, 2019 16:06
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