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JustJeff88 posted:Speaking of 4th editon: Did that game every run into resource issues in regards to daily powers? What I mean by this is if there were ever scenarios where an encounter would happen that was challenging but doable normally, but the PCs had some bad luck and/or made some bad decisions and came into the encounter without their biggest cannons and were wiped out. At-will powers were naturally infinite and encounter powers were too provided that a jerk DM didn't force the PCs to never rest, but I could easily see a group with no dailies and depleted healing surges getting flattened by a normally doable encounter. The scenario you describe could happen, yes, though my contention is that that's just supposed to be how the game works: The party has x many daily resources, and the DM throws fights at them to deplete those resources, and the challenge of (the combat part of) the game is to complete those fights while spending resources as efficiently as possible so that you have enough "gas in the tank" to get to the last one. If you're not yet at the last one and you're already out of gas, that builds tension. What made 4e good was making the resource models consistent enough, and the power levels relatively even enough, that it was easier (but maybe not still not easy per se) to get this sort of thing intuitive and natural to play out and manage.
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Jan 14, 2019 02:29
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gradenko_2000 posted:the WoW model, maybe? you start every fight at "full" power, and there are no carry-over effects from one fight to the next, and any expressions of difficulty and skill are within the context of the individual fight The irony is that the MMO model is much more conducive to giving each class a unique resource system and in-combat minigame to play.
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Jan 14, 2019 04:45
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UrbicaMortis posted:Are there any rules for creating stronger undead as a wizard? I was looking at Animate Dead, since I'd like to play a necro wizard if my current character ever gets killed, and it seems like it only allows you to raise and control an increasingly large number of regular zombies/skeletons as you level. 5e support for pet classes is so poor it's best avoided altogether. Just make do with your skellies then planar bind an Earth Elemental or Draegloth when you get to 11.
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Jan 14, 2019 05:06
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Conspiratiorist posted:5e support for pet classes is so poor it's best avoided altogether. It's not that hard to think of how it could work, but you'd need to write a new class with its own Ferrinus posted:unique resource system and in-combat minigame because nothing about the way existing classes (or existing subsystems) work supports a non-stupid implementation of a primarily pet/summoner build.
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Jan 14, 2019 06:28
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I wonder how much of that is a reaction to how absurdly you could abuse summoning in 3.5. Druids got real crazy.
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Jan 14, 2019 06:36
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Seriously, just get an elemental or planar bound fiend as an ally, or alternatively ask the DM to go on some quest to build/get a Shield Guardian or Gray Slaad, and avoid class rewriting headaches. These things are the best pets you can realistically get anyway.
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Jan 14, 2019 06:37
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Liquid Communism posted:I wonder how much of that is a reaction to how absurdly you could abuse summoning in 3.5. Druids got real crazy. The reaction to 3.5 summoning was handing over control of the results of the summoning spell to the DM so that a player can't data-mine Monster Manuals.
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Jan 14, 2019 06:42
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Liquid Communism posted:I wonder how much of that is a reaction to how absurdly you could abuse summoning in 3.5. Druids got real crazy. Not a reaction. 1, 2, and 3/.5 also didn't support non-stupid primary pet/summoner builds. I mean, the 1/2e fighter is arguably the "pet/summon" class in D&D, but most people ignore that whole aspect because a) It appears to be enormously OP because you get it all in one big go on a single levelup, and b) it's a gigantic stupid pain in the rear end to try to actually use it and this is extremely obvious before you even try. 5e tries to contain that, but still has the same old problems of "I get, like 75 turns!" bullshit, and the spotlight-steal/narrative-grab "I have an uncontrollable summoned X army", while making sane, fun, summoning practically impossible as a viable build. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 06:54 on Jan 14, 2019 |
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Jan 14, 2019 06:46
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gradenko_2000 posted:The party has x many daily resources, and the DM throws fights at them to deplete those resources, and the challenge of (the combat part of) the game is to complete those fights while spending resources as efficiently as possible so that you have enough "gas in the tank" to get to the last one. If you're not yet at the last one and you're already out of gas, that builds tension. gradenko_2000 posted:The reaction to 3.5 summoning was handing over control of the results of the summoning spell to the DM so that a player can't data-mine Monster Manuals.
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Jan 14, 2019 06:47
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Infinite Karma posted:It's a very game-mechanical tension, though, instead of dramatic tension related to the plot. Presumably, those daily fights are hacking through obstacles on the way to a goal (or a boss) that is the natural climax. Traditionally (in terms of heroic stories) the challenges get harder and the stakes get higher as the protagonists get closer to the goal. If the resource depletion minigame adds to that, great, but it seems like it more often ends up sapping the tension and leading to an anticlimax where nothing epic happens, because the cool abilities got used four encounters ago. In my experience, only veteran players end up saving their most powerful abilities for the actual climax, especially if they have to resist using them repeatedly. So what's the solution? The only thing I can think of is to give them abilities that only unlock in a boss fight, and that seems like it'd be worse, somehow.
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Jan 14, 2019 06:54
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:So what's the solution?
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Jan 14, 2019 07:46
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:So what's the solution? Encounter building is busted as hell RAW anyway. So build encounters assuming the players will always be fresh and at 80-90% power. That usually means just putting in more enemies. Design them to be fun combat challenges in their own right (and interesting stories), and don't play the resource minigame. Let them rest when they want and can justify it. Discourage them from taking long rests at the beginning of the day however you want, it's an inherent weakness of the system. If you write a story that would make rest difficult or impossible, then you need to go to the trouble of estimating the resource depletion minigame. Otherwise, you'll get a feel for the challenges they can beat very quickly.
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Jan 14, 2019 07:53
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gradenko_2000 posted:the WoW model, maybe? you start every fight at "full" power, and there are no carry-over effects from one fight to the next, and any expressions of difficulty and skill are within the context of the individual fight This is how i would do a system if i wanted asymmetric resources between classes, but as it is the resource system is tied into the core design of 5E that i can't imagine untangling it. I do let players use their hit dice any time they are out of initiative so they can start each fight at full health provided they have the resources though. In terms of a general system to compel players to press on a score that goes down if they take too long that doesn't affect their combat abilities doesn't seem that bad of a solution to me. The other idea is to have a reward system for doing x fights without resting, i think 4E had something like this with action points?
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Jan 14, 2019 08:01
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Infinite Karma posted:Encounter building is busted as hell RAW anyway. So build encounters assuming the players will always be fresh and at 80-90% power. That usually means just putting in more enemies. Design them to be fun combat challenges in their own right (and interesting stories), and don't play the resource minigame. Let them rest when they want and can justify it. Discourage them from taking long rests at the beginning of the day however you want, it's an inherent weakness of the system. I always draw a line between dungeons and encounters when planning a session. Dungeons are meant to be a series of encounters under time pressure with decreasing available resources. Regular encounters can be built assuming full character power will be mostly regained between them. That way everyone gets to use their One Big Thing fairly often which makes them feel good, and the times when they can't just rest real quick make for stronger tension.
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Jan 14, 2019 10:07
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Infinite Karma posted:It's a very game-mechanical tension, though, instead of dramatic tension related to the plot. Presumably, those daily fights are hacking through obstacles on the way to a goal (or a boss) that is the natural climax. Traditionally (in terms of heroic stories) the challenges get harder and the stakes get higher as the protagonists get closer to the goal. If the resource depletion minigame adds to that, great, but it seems like it more often ends up sapping the tension and leading to an anticlimax where nothing epic happens, because the cool abilities got used four encounters ago. In my experience, only veteran players end up saving their most powerful abilities for the actual climax, especially if they have to resist using them repeatedly. That's sort of why I lean on the side of "just do away with the adventuring day entirely" if you can get away with it (which, again, may require a different game entirely) While it's possible to teach or train players to be in the right mindset to play out what the game expects to happen, and it's also possible to have that delicate balance of encounter difficulty and adventuring day length where you don't run the players out of abilities before getting to the boss without also being too generous with rests, it can require so much elbow grease to be un-fun to have to manage all the time. In campaigns where I've stuck to this traditional D&D formula, it was always with these "veteran players" you describe, where I didn't have to "groom" them anymore that that was how the dynamic was supposed to play out. CJ posted:In terms of a general system to compel players to press on a score that goes down if they take too long that doesn't affect their combat abilities doesn't seem that bad of a solution to me. The other idea is to have a reward system for doing x fights without resting, i think 4E had something like this with action points? Yes, 4e did something like that. If you did two encounters back-to-back without taking a Long Rest in between, you'd earn an Action Point, and Action Points would let you take an extra action in combat. IMO, that particular reward mechanic wasn't really strong, and it was still the larger reconfiguration of the gameplay mechanics (particular Healing Surges) that got people to stop resting so drat often. I did write something about using carrots and sticks to prod players along without them taking too many rests.
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Jan 14, 2019 10:59
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Has above come up with a auto combat mechanic to be used in conjunction with the wandering monsters reoccupying previously cleared rooms or any other "trash mob" type gauntlet? "You clear these chumps but take 20 damage as a party and use up two slots worth of spells doing it; the party distributes that amongst themselves and continue"
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Jan 14, 2019 15:55
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One of the many problems with D&D encounter balance (and D&D in general) is the succeed/fail binary result and little to no guidance on the fail part. If the party wipes because they wasted their resources on earlier fights, welp time to start new characters I guess. A lesser but still problematic situation is fear of using their powers too early and because of this rarely getting a chance to have fun with them.
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Jan 14, 2019 16:54
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nelson posted:A lesser but still problematic situation is fear of using their powers too early and because of this rarely getting a chance to have fun with them. This is a pretty big problem in almost every game I'm in. It throws everything off. Ever play a video game, and you're saving all your full heals for REALLY SERIOUS MOMENTS? The game changes completely if you relax on that, it's an entirely different game.
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Jan 14, 2019 19:16
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Liquid Communism posted:I always draw a line between dungeons and encounters when planning a session. Dungeons are meant to be a series of encounters under time pressure with decreasing available resources. Regular encounters can be built assuming full character power will be mostly regained between them. This is an excellent way to look at it.
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Jan 14, 2019 19:24
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Liquid Communism posted:I always draw a line between dungeons and encounters when planning a session. Dungeons are meant to be a series of encounters under time pressure with decreasing available resources. Regular encounters can be built assuming full character power will be mostly regained between them. I do the same thing too, and usually just straight up tell my players at the beginning of the session if they're going to be in that scenario or not too. "Okay this time you're descending into the bowels of the planet in an underground wizard tower filled with alien magic. You won't get to rest unless you leave, and if you leave things will drastically change as your enemies now know you're here and can react, so either you do it all in one go or explicitly allow consequences to happen."
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Jan 14, 2019 19:39
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CJ posted:What do you all think of adding a humanity system to 5E? I watched Made in Abyss recently and replayed Dark Souls and i really like the feeling of adventuring wearing down your soul. After thinking about it a bit i think it would also help mechanically as well. The setting would be sort of like a fantasy version of S.T.A.L.K.E.R., where there was some great cataclysm that flooded the world with demonic energy making everywhere outside of cities hazardous.
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Jan 15, 2019 00:55
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Anyone played Horizon Walker? Thinking about doing it in Strahd though I'm wondering if it gets interesting /exciting or if it's just "sometimes you teleport but mostly you punch dudes with a sword, the end"
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Jan 15, 2019 02:11
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Kung Food posted:Have you ever played Darkest Dungeon? It helps that there's not a long process to replace dead/insane dudes.
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Jan 15, 2019 02:23
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Anyone played Horizon Walker? Thinking about doing it in Strahd though I'm wondering if it gets interesting /exciting or if it's just "sometimes you teleport but mostly you punch dudes with a sword, the end" Protection from Evil, Misty Step and Haste are all excellent spells to have. The Bonus Action ability is okay. Also, sometimes you teleport but mostly you punch dudes with a sword.
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Jan 15, 2019 02:26
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Anyone played Horizon Walker? Thinking about doing it in Strahd though I'm wondering if it gets interesting /exciting or if it's just "sometimes you teleport but mostly you punch dudes with a sword, the end" All 3 of the Xanathar's ranger options are very good. You can't go wrong with any of them.
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Jan 15, 2019 02:36
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It's less "is it good" and more "is there some fun hidden nuance to it"
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Jan 15, 2019 02:56
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Anyone played Horizon Walker? Thinking about doing it in Strahd though I'm wondering if it gets interesting /exciting or if it's just "sometimes you teleport but mostly you punch dudes with a sword, the end" monster hunter is more themed for the setting if you care about that side of it, may even give your dm great hooks for content/npcs in the module.
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Jan 15, 2019 03:00
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https://twitter.com/rjschwalb/status/1084788037425471488 https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/264030/Call-to-Arms-The-Warlord Robert J Schwalb, of SOTDL fame, has developed a Warlord class for D&D 5e At first, the Warlord gets to give bonus dice to their allies, and while also giving them bonus damage if they're adjacent. By 6th level, they can start having other people attack for them. By 10th level, they can let people spend healing Hit Dice and/or remove Exhaustion without taking a Rest. By 14th level, they can start using multiple Help actions even off-turn. The class comes with four archetypes, all expanding on the theme of leadership and granting bonuses to allies.
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Jan 15, 2019 04:23
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gradenko_2000 posted:https://twitter.com/rjschwalb/status/1084788037425471488 God this owns bones, I really want to try and its extra good that literally no game I get in will let me lmao.
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Jan 15, 2019 04:30
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kingcom posted:God this owns bones, I really want to try and its extra good that literally no game I get in will let me lmao. Is it worth the $2.50?
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Jan 15, 2019 05:13
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Webguy20 posted:Is it worth the $2.50? I mean yeah its a workable warlord with some real strengths and real good at resisting status effects. I mean I'd say almost anything is worth 2.50 so idk how to judge that.
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Jan 15, 2019 05:25
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I once had a veteran 4th edition player of my acquaintance tell me that they had a house rule where, if a PC went into an encounter with no dailies left, he could use any daily of his choice once and only once until he had a full rest. It's been some years and I'm probably misremembering the minutiae, but that's near as drat it. Whether or not this had any downsides or balance issues, we never discussed.
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Jan 15, 2019 05:33
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Webguy20 posted:Is it worth the $2.50? I don't even really play 5e anymore, but Schwalb is a cool dude and I want to support him and if this thing getting lots of sales convinces DMs to let players use it in their games so much the better. DMs, let your players use this in your games.
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Jan 15, 2019 05:35
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I mean, there are some poo poo homebrew classes on D&D Wiki, so someone charging for their take on converting a class from 4e to 5e is either someone who hopefully knows their poo poo or someone who is banking on making some quick cash from nostalgia.
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Jan 15, 2019 05:35
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It has saves on con and wis, which is a weird break from how all the others are designed. (And also weird because it's a charisma class.)
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Jan 15, 2019 05:52
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Nehru the Damaja posted:It has saves on con and wis, which is a weird break from how all the others are designed. (And also weird because it's a charisma class.) It's a good change because the uncommon stats having saving throws is bullshit in the first place.
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Jan 15, 2019 06:11
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Nehru the Damaja posted:It has saves on con and wis, which is a weird break from how all the others are designed. (And also weird because it's a charisma class.) I mean a warlord is kinda known for their ability to resist status effects and help others get out of status effects, thats how you do that in 5e. Hilariously they are still worse at it than a Paladin.
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Jan 15, 2019 06:14
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kingcom posted:I mean a warlord is kinda known for their ability to resist status effects and help others get out of status effects, thats how you do that in 5e. Hilariously they are still worse at it than a Paladin. Right but the standard is one main save, one obscure one. Wisdom/Charisma fits.
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Jan 15, 2019 06:21
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Nehru the Damaja posted:Right but the standard is one main save, one obscure one. Wisdom/Charisma fits. Right but its about making the character more effective at resisting status effects, so they get two of the more common saves. If they picked one of the less common saves the character would be worse at resisting status effects. Wis and Con are the two save types that apply lots of status effects in terms of saves, while dex saves are far more often going to cause damage on failed saves. Hence why those two of the common saves is picked.
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Jan 15, 2019 06:30
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Is that Gunslinger homebrew class any good? The one based off of Critical Role or whatever that is?
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Jan 15, 2019 06:43
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