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Didn't the A2 also break records in regard to Cw/drag coefficient in it's class back then, or was that all marketing speak?
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Jan 16, 2019 21:27
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Wasabi the J posted:I don't know where to put this harlequin Saturd. In here 
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Jan 16, 2019 21:37
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Combat Theory posted:
Solid little car. The millionaire owner of a Swiss startup I worked at has one, it was his first car and he's still driving it 15 years later. Claims nothing he could buy could possibly improve on it  My family's shitbox of choice is the 6N Polo. Our one has been in the family since 2003, me and two of my cousins learned to drive in it. I've personally helped someone move house several times in it.  The 1.4 has roughly the same acceleration/top speed as the Micra (and also suffers heavily when the AC is on), and both do about 6L/100. The 1.2 TDi A2 gets 3... tuo posted:Didn't the A2 also break records in regard to Cw/drag coefficient in it's class back then, or was that all marketing speak? Yeah, 0.25 apparently Grakkus fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Jan 16, 2019 |
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Jan 16, 2019 22:02
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tuo posted:was that all marketing speak? yeah because that's another thing the prius was surprisingly good at
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Jan 16, 2019 22:05
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Cw is smoke and mirros if you dont know the surface area that goes with it. In general we didnt really improve on air resistance within a line of production cars since the late 90s as cars grew as much in front surface area as they improved in Cw coefficient...
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Jan 16, 2019 22:07
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Phew, my favourite car was built in 91
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Jan 16, 2019 22:15
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tuo posted:Phew, my favourite car was built in 91 Hell, 
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Jan 16, 2019 22:50
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Aren't EVs almost basically moot with regards to total CO output if everyone agreed to drive some kind of 1000cc or smaller displacement motor?
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Jan 17, 2019 00:24
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tuo posted:Phew, my favourite car was built in 91 Agreed. The '91 Ford Aerostar was a hell of a vehicle. Great choice.
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Jan 17, 2019 00:33
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C-Bangin' it 
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autism ZX spectrum posted:Aren't EVs almost basically moot with regards to total CO output if everyone agreed to drive some kind of 1000cc or smaller displacement motor? Mostly a myth and only true within the first 6-18 months of the EVs driveabile lifetime
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Jan 17, 2019 00:35
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autism ZX spectrum posted:Aren't EVs almost basically moot with regards to total CO output if everyone agreed to drive some kind of 1000cc or smaller displacement motor? Edit: never mind, I have a reading disorder. I could have *sworn* that was typo'd to 10,000cc. Small cars are kind of scary on American freeways, BTW, which is part of what hampers sales. The other part is everyone thinks they need a massive vehicle to get groceries.
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Jan 17, 2019 00:57
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1000cc is enough for city driving. Yes it sucks on open highway but in rush hour it doesn't matter because traffic is at a standstill anyways. But running errands on normal city grids? Totally fine.
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Jan 17, 2019 01:00
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It's cheating by almost a 3rd but a 2017 Yaris with a 1300cc is completely fine on the highways I find. Plus, if everyone were to have a 1000cc motor it would be a different experience and I think we'd get used to it.
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Jan 17, 2019 01:53
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E: nevermind EV chat, what's the threads opinion on VWs old W12 syncro?  I say right thread if only because they chose to present the prototypes in yellow of all colors. Combat Theory fucked around with this message at 11:31 on Jan 17, 2019 |
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Jan 17, 2019 07:28
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Wasabi the J posted:
That's both awesome and terrifying. Awesome that someone put that kind of work into it, also it's clean as gently caress for its age (03-05, most likely 04-05). I'd drive it if it was an 06-07. Unfortunately, it's not - those are 04-05 wheels, and it's missing the OnStar antenna that's standard on all 06's. The 05 got the newer steering wheel, but the older center stack, so an 05 isn't too terrible. The 03-04 coupe got the horrible CVT transaxle if it's automatic - bad enough on its own, but also got the worst steering wheel and dash. Upside is that's a level 3, so it's got auto headlights, PW/PL/PM, and keyless entry. With all that work, you'd think they'd do a proper harlequin. Aside from the purple and cyan, the rest of the colors that VW used for a harlequin were available as a factory option on the Ion (that weird rear end blue that saw maybe 500 cars sold in could double up as one...). And ALL OF THOSE loving BODY PANELS are held on with tiny screws, so it's not exactly a big deal to pull them off and get them painted. The only body panels not easily detachable in that pic are the roof, trunk lid, and hood (trunk and hood come off, but they're steel - roof is welded). That blue is one of the rarest factory color options, though. It'd look better with just blue and gold, instead of the random black fender.
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Jan 17, 2019 07:44
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STR posted:That's both awesome and terrifying. Awesome that someone put that amount of work into it, also it's clean as gently caress for its age (03-05, most likely 04-05). ...Why do you possess that much knowledge of Saturns?
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Jan 17, 2019 08:02
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My Saturd knowledge is limited mostly to Ions. 
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Jan 17, 2019 08:51
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well i guess that car is in the wrong thread if it looks like that from plucking choice junkyard bits as things have broken on it over the years  Darchangel posted:The other part is everyone thinks they need a massive vehicle to get groceries. only the Nissan TITAN can handle the amount of pre-chopped wood i am buying
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Jan 17, 2019 09:30
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STR posted:That's both awesome and terrifying. Awesome that someone put that kind of work into it, also it's clean as gently caress for its age (03-05, most likely 04-05). This broke me. This is 100%  about Saturns. I'm loving dying. I HAD a Saturn Ion. I LIKED my Saturn Ion. I would NEVER know so much about that damned car. Just in case the lack of a rear and driver's side was bugging you, it mirrored perfectly and the trunk and bumper were blue.
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Jan 17, 2019 12:56
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Combat Theory posted:E: nevermind EV chat, what's the threads opinion on VWs old W12 syncro? I never knew that existed, but now I can only assume that's where they started the 120 litres of engine oil track to the Veyron from. You obviously are a guru in regard to engines: are W-engines in any way worthwile in cars, where the RPM changes all the time, or was/is VW simply brute-forcing BHP into a silly project with the Veyron/Chiron? Those cars weigh like two tons, VW forbids any officiial tracktimes (as does Ferrari...though) etc. So to a layman like me, it seems like these cars are like a 4x4 without the ground clearance of a proper 4x4, with stupid gimmicks. I don't even care about the "the fuel tank will be empty before the tyres explode", because all of that is stupid, and imo is not what an engineer would develop if the mission ain't "make a car for dubai that goes faster on an airfield than other cars in dubai, so some idiot buys a couple" (which I assume is the correct job description for the Veyron/Chiron), I'd like to know if a W-engine is in any way worthwile in a car.
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Jan 17, 2019 14:27
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Dr.Smasher posted:...Why do you possess that much knowledge of Saturns? You must be new here.
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Jan 17, 2019 14:33
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Packaging. Basically a VR6 on steroids.
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Jan 17, 2019 14:47
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Colostomy Bag posted:Packaging. Basically a VR6 on steroids. Yeah. More cylinders per unit length than other configs. And remember the longer the crankshaft the less rigid it is and the more succeptible it is to destructive harmonic forces, if you dont also make the crank much heavier than it is, which then also introduces problems of its own. A solution is multi bank engines. But then you run into height and width problems and etc etc What im saying is straight 6 6 life binch
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Jan 17, 2019 15:24
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BE NICE TO STR. He is a DELIGHT.
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Jan 17, 2019 15:57
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tuo posted:I never knew that existed, but now I can only assume that's where they started the 120 litres of engine oil track to the Veyron from. Colostomy Bag posted:Packaging. Basically a VR6 on steroids. You need to know that I have a lot of gripes with VW for 1. Their cheapskate policy that keeps loving over the OEM market and that leaked to other brands meanwhile 2. Their design approach to hand hold the driver under all circumstances 3. The Powertrain design that emerged from 1 and 2. So im not really unbiased in the case of the VR and W Engine. To understand both, you need to understand VWs struggle under point 1 and 2. VW makes Front wheel drive cars. First and foremost. They install their engines sideways. All the time. Except for the audi platformed Passats. If you have to cram your engine together with the gearbox sideways over the front axle, you are at sane cylinder dimensions limited to 4 in a row. Everything else and you need some very fancy design that costs a lot of money. Case in point, Ford and the focus RS.   An in line 5 cylinder (if in line 6 is the king, in line 5 is the queen) that produces the absolutely beautiful noise concierto of a star shaped crankshaft you also get froma V10 in stereo form, but because they installed it sideways in the focus, they had to cut corners everywhere inside the engine, make the cylinder sidewalls razor sharp, squeeze the cooling channels of the open block as close as possible and the result is massive reliability issues, heat issues, blown headgaskets and what not. It's absolutely not trivial to make a sideways engine in a front engine bay with more than 4 in a line. This is why the top notch motorisation in so many FF platforms is a V6. The V6 is usually even shorter than the biggest 4 cylinder motorisation available in a car and it's usually hassle free when it comes to heat issues, as well as proven and reliable to engineer for almost any given engine bay. A V6 has a big problem though. Not for you and me. But remember point 1. VW are absolute cheapskates. A V6 needs 2 cylinder heads. It also needs 2 cylinder banks. Either as bolt on cylinder blocks (more parts) or V cast blocks (complex cast) all of this makes the V6 expensive. Now I don't mean expensive like you and me expensive where it suddenly costs 3000 or 5000 Euro more per car (lol they of course charge you about thst much) a V6 might cost 1600 or 1800 instead of 1200 in manufacturing cost. But we gotta calculate on a fraction of a cent. This is big numbers. So VW tried to come up with a way of making a cheap inline engine, while getting 6 cylinders to fit into an FF engine bay. The result is the VR6.     The VR6 utilizes a single cast block and a single cast head to accommodate 6 cylinders in 2 banks. First of all, this sounds good. You get 6 cylinder power at just a bit over 4 cylinder price. Mission accomplished (?) Here is where the problems with VR6 start. You had to make some compromises on your way. And you had to make compromises on nearly every aspect of engine making. Just let me list some 1. Excessive Schränkung (the word does not exist in English, I'll use entanglement) of the cylinder axis. The cylinder axis is not hitting the crankshaft center of rotation. Instead the pistons oscillate "away of the cranskaft" this means the dynamics of piston, con rod and crankshaft are massively fuckered with. It means the piston normal forces are not a product of torque and vertical piston position anymore, but get a factor added due to the entanglement that results in excessive piston normal force. Note that a small amount of entanglement (sub millimeter) might be used instead of wrist pin desaxation to counter piston rattle, but we talk orders of magnitude more entanglement here. 2. Non prismatic cylinder blocks. Because you cast V blocks into a single casting with a single closed deck , you end up with massive sidewall thickness variation as you travel along the cylinder. This results in unequal thermal dynamics along the cylinder which is very hard to deal with due to the manufacturing process of the cylinder. You can egg shape a piston to control thermal expansion, but you can't inverse egg shape a cylinder. It will always be a perfect cylinder due to honing. 3. Cylinder head The cylinder head is massive fuckery all around. No matter what approach you take your porting will be poo poo. If you run side ports for either bank, you end up with manifold contraptions next to each other (very bad) like some 1950s side valve engine. If you run equal side ports (one engine side exhaust, one intake) you end up with massively different runner lengths (bad power curve) and have to bury a poo poo ton of hardware a mile deep in the head. Then there's cooling issues, valve train issues, massive weight issues, jadda jadda jadda... So yeah, VR6 as an engine black box works. You get a 6 banger in the dimension of a fatty 4 banger and as long as you don't look inside it that's cool and good. But it's not a good engine by any measure when compared to a pure V6 or a Pure inline 6. The W12 engine is 2 VR6 arranged in 2 banks around a single crankshaft. The W16 engine is 2 VR8 arranged in 2 banks around a single crankshaft. Both inherit the flaws of the original VR design, with the addition of being entirely unnecessary since they are longitudinal mounted. You could just make a traditional V12 instead. Granted, the phaeoton wouldn't fit its passat esque engine compartment with a longitudinal V12 anymore but thats kinda nitpicky. There's no reason the veyron needs 16 cylinders. It simply has them because the engineers were uncomfortable abort fitting bigger cylinders into the VR block while already boosting it to massive proportions. Cooling issues and all that. Also a reason why the thing needs a barrel of engine oil. Aniways there's my VR rant. VW also has awesome engines. The 5 valve GTI engines are a charm. But don't tell anyone that they are made by Yamaha 
Combat Theory fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Jan 17, 2019 |
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Jan 17, 2019 16:09
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Colostomy Bag posted:Packaging. Basically a VR6 on steroids. Right. If you want 16 cylinders because gently caress you, then at least with a W16 you don't have to find room for eight cylinders in a row between the driver's seat and the rear axle.
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Jan 17, 2019 16:19
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Combat Theory posted:You need to know that I have a lot of gripes with VW for This is so readily apparent when you compare the battery module from an MEB vehicle to the pack Audi is using in the e-tron:  (from https://jalopnik.com/the-fascinating-engineering-behind-vws-electric-car-pla-1829257860)  (from https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/12/weve-driven-audis-first-proper-electric-car-the-2019-e-tron-suv/)
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Jan 17, 2019 16:26
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Wasabi the J posted:This broke me. This is 100% I get it. I think STR is like me in that we end up learning ALL THE THINGS about any car we own. I bought a '70 Olds Cutlass, and know quite a bit about classic Olds musclecars as a result. I bought an RX-7, and learned an unreasonable amount about rotaries. I bought a Jeep Cherokee, and now know more about Cherokees, and Jeeps in general, than I ever thought I would. I bought a Crown Vic - ditto. Cop car knowledge out the wazoo. Better still, I write this poo poo down and archive it now. One Note, and several programs before that, have been incredibly useful. I can look up poo poo while at the wrecking yard looking for parts, now. edit: TIL that Ford made a 5-cylinder. We didn't get that Focus RS here in the US, just the ones with the 2.3L Ecoboost. Also, the VAG VR- and W- engines are so. very. German. Darchangel fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Jan 17, 2019 |
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Jan 17, 2019 16:30
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Boaz MacPhereson posted:You must be new here. I've had Left Ventricle's Buick Century thread bookmarked for a year now, so I know AI when I see it.
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Jan 17, 2019 16:41
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Combat Theory posted:E: nevermind EV chat, what's the threads opinion on VWs old W12 syncro? It's always really weird to see an interesting VW concept because interesting VWs aren't a thing you see very often.
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Jan 17, 2019 18:32
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Darchangel posted:edit: TIL that Ford made a 5-cylinder. We didn't get that Focus RS here in the US, just the ones with the 2.3L Ecoboost. Also, the VAG VR- and W- engines are so. very. German. To be fair, Ford didn't really make it. They just borrowed it from Volvo.
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Jan 17, 2019 18:39
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Combat Theory posted:You need to know that I have a lot of gripes with VW for Love when this thread gets all educational about cars.
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Jan 17, 2019 18:50
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yeah i don't know where Combat Theory came from exactly but their posts over the last 6 months or so (especially in the yospos tesla thread) have been really awesome
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Jan 17, 2019 19:00
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Yeah, that was a Good Post, thanks!
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Jan 17, 2019 19:13
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Q_res posted:To be fair, Ford didn't really make it. They just borrowed it from Volvo. This is pertinent to me, since I'm considering purchasing a used V70 T5. They're remarkably cheap.
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Jan 17, 2019 19:27
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awesome post, I learned a lot! Thank you very much for taking the time writing it, it was awesome to read it!!!
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Jan 17, 2019 20:51
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Sagebrush posted:yeah i don't know where Combat Theory came from exactly but their posts over the last 6 months or so (especially in the yospos tesla thread) have been really awesome Germany. Where some really good engines come from. You see? e: that might have come out wrong and a bit dickish.... I meant it more like where some of the best engines come from....
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Jan 17, 2019 20:52
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e: removed, bad post
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Jan 17, 2019 20:55
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Loving the new STR-themed title Here's some terrible car stuff. I commissioned a set of custom rear window louvres for my 80s shitbox back in November, send the guy a full rear hatch and spoiler to build it on. Fast forward to now, he finally tells me he's starting it today and then informs me that because the rear window is glued in instead of on a rubber seal, he won't make it. At first I thought maybe he needs to take the window out, so I offer to ship him a separate window. Nope. Then I figure he is shaking me down for more money, so I ask how much he wants. Nope, he says he won't do it for any price on a glued window. What the gently caress? Is there something I'm missing that makes this a reasonable stance to take?
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Jan 17, 2019 21:07
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Sagebrush posted:yeah i don't know where Combat Theory came from exactly but their posts over the last 6 months or so (especially in the yospos tesla thread) have been really awesome thanks for all the kind words Since i introduced myself in some other threads already i guess it doesnt hurt here too, Im an Automotive Engineer for Powertrain and Chassis technology, specialized in Thermodynamics and Powertrain conception. I did couple Years in Motorsport while i got my first degree developing Powertrain components (Fuel Systems, Air Intake and Throttle Systems, Silencers) as well as Dyno work. Finished my Degree at the German DoD where i worked for half a year Currently getting my second Degree (same discipline) while working for an OEM. Props gonna settle for the military industrial complex since i cant be arsed anymore with the current automotive industry. Also dont mind the occasional verbal diarrhea tuo, you are a lovely Poster  E: i would have gone for a Masters in Saturds withouth thinking twice. Combat Theory fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Jan 17, 2019 |
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Jan 17, 2019 21:12
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