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Capital C. Might as well do something while there's time. I dunno, call upon the old ones that sleep, gaze up on the voidborn. That kind of thing. I've already walked this path once, this... madness. Should be easy enough to retrace the steps. At least it would give purpose to this joke of reality. Edit: Oh look, late night ramblings of a madman. What a difference being medicated does. Ssthalar fucked around with this message at 09:29 on Jan 18, 2019 |
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Jan 18, 2019 00:21
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plushpuffin posted:They're already doing this in China using paintbrushes. There's the hope I was looking for. Finally I can put my degrees to good work. So let's ignore any further insects dying off, the Chinese got us covered.
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Jan 18, 2019 01:57
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Making an extremely modest living by pollinating plants and clearing shrubs to prevent wildfire damage and other forms of conservation sounds lovely but im sure in our hellscape future the powers that be will refuse to pay enough to even live an extremely modest life. Instead the rich will sit on their horde of money while the world beyond their gates festers and burns.
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Jan 18, 2019 02:32
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There won't need to be much money involved. You'll just put in a few hours of pollinating each week as part of your day of mandatory CCC (Climate Change Corps) service. Anyone read https://nplusonemag.com/issue-33/the-intellectual-situation/the-best-of-a-bad-situation/ ? It talks about, amongst other things, the failures of education and shaming to change climate perspectives, as ignorance isn't the block--"willed ignorance" is. Rather than going "hope-free," like that article from a page or two ago, it asks you to get radical and angry to demand change. In other words, eco-terrorism is the answer. Insanite fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Jan 18, 2019 |
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Jan 18, 2019 02:34
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No war but the climate war
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Jan 18, 2019 10:58
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It boggles my mind that the research on insect collapse is so scarce. How are we just learning of this now? The study recently making rounds in the news took six years to publish. Do we have another six years to figure out how things are now?
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Jan 18, 2019 13:20
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COMPAGNIE TOMMY posted:No war but the climate war If climate change is an existential threat to our species and others, and those in power refuse to address it adequately, like... what's the alternative?* Campaigning harder next election? *Not advocating violence, this is just a moral question.
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Jan 18, 2019 15:03
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It amazes me that people still flick cigs out of their car Explains why a lot of people think they're not the problem
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Jan 18, 2019 15:09
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Insanite posted:If climate change is an existential threat to our species and others, and those in power refuse to address it adequately, like... what's the alternative?* Sit back, enjoy the time left to the utmost, decide on an exit strategy for the worst case scenario. We'll eventually hit a breaking point where people realize that, in the face of us all dying anyways, the personal consequences of direct action are the same end result so why not go for it. Unfortunately, that realization won't become widespread until its far too late to have any impact, and will be purely retributive in nature. You cannot fight the modern state apparatus, and I've said for years that the best thing for most regulars in this thread would be to just push it out of their minds.
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Jan 18, 2019 15:23
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Insanite posted:If climate change is an existential threat to our species and others, and those in power refuse to address it adequately, like... what's the alternative?* If we're talking about the US and focusing on politics specifically, then part of it is to stop treating electoral politics specifically as a major turning point. We only get a shot at someone new in the White House once every four years and midterm elections are not guaranteed to drastically alter the political landscape. Action is going to come from putting serious pressure on existing politicians. And yes, Republicans are loving awful, but they'll buckle under sufficient pressure too. Waiting for them to be voted out is a losing game because they're always going to come back and it's never going to be possible to run so far with the ball that they can't run it back when they get control again. Political pressure has to be exerted to get horrendously bad politicians to do what needs to be done, not just to elect better politicians. Waiting for them to die or vanish to shifting demographics (lol) is not a valid strategy when it comes to climate change.
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Jan 18, 2019 15:35
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Never mind Republicans, I don't think that most Democrats are prepared to do what needs to be done.Rime posted:Sit back, enjoy the time left to the utmost, decide on an exit strategy for the worst case scenario. Like, I respect this. It's a judgment that can be done, and so whatever. I'm mostly in this camp. Where I get a bit lost is with getting satisfaction out of half-measures--out of electric car tax credits, modest renewable energy buildouts, and carbon taxes--the sorts of things that a letter-writing campaign or polite protesting might get you. If you believe that there's an existential threat, and that we must attempt to solve it using the state and activism, I'm not really sure how you can ignore nasty direct action as a prerequisite to societal change.
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Jan 18, 2019 15:49
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Well how about that, "willed ignorance" huh? Guess all those people who said we needed to be less alarmist so people could come around were full of poo poo.
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Jan 18, 2019 16:11
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That's where direct action has to come in, it seems to me. The information is out there, and people who don't want to act appropriately on it are simply attempting to shore up their and their families' safety while maintaining the status quo for as long as possible.
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Jan 18, 2019 16:36
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Eh. I think there's a case to be made that a lot of people who complain about alarmists while not otherwise being climate change deniers are legitimate optimists, it's just that this is a case where blind optimism is really damaging. The starting point for serious climate discussions is acknowledging that the baseline is already bad and that optimism is about further mitigation and harm reduction. Lots of people don't want to accept that or desperately want to view that as pessimism, even though it's entirely possible to accept reality and still be optimistic. I think this is why a lot of people choose to tune out too. The only way they know to be optimistic about this is to believe that there's a chance that we "fix" climate change and everything stays how it is. That's not possible, so rather than dealing with that they move on.
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Jan 18, 2019 16:56
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Oxxidation posted:we're too collectively stupid to maintain the basic functionality of our own governments, there will be no far-reaching technological solution Stop this poo poo, please. It isn't helpful and is actively harmful to people who suffer from depression. Paradoxish posted:If we're talking about the US and focusing on politics specifically, then part of it is to stop treating electoral politics specifically as a major turning point. We only get a shot at someone new in the White House once every four years and midterm elections are not guaranteed to drastically alter the political landscape. Action is going to come from putting serious pressure on existing politicians. Exactly, get involved. Start putting pressure on them now and keep ramping it up. Join an environmental group and start building a bench to primary people. You can do a shitton of work as an individual or a small to enact change to government. We are seeing a huge groundswell for environmentalist support, the momentum needs to be fed by our blood, sweat, and tears to make concrete change though. Rime posted:Sit back, enjoy the time left to the utmost, decide on an exit strategy for the worst case scenario. Dear god Rime, please loving just stop it with your constant "nothing matters so why try" bullshit.
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Jan 18, 2019 20:12
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Buddy I'm 450' up a fuckin' wind turbine right now, in 18m/s winds, at -22, because that is me trying to do something. if I wanted to sit back and do nothing I'd be sitting on EI in BC right now, not freezing my rear end off halfway across the loving continent. Stop trying to paint me as a goddamn nihilist and actually read what I loving wrote. gently caress. I'm not going to sit here and get Lowtax a visit from the NSA for harboring an eco-terrorist cell ffs.
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Jan 18, 2019 20:58
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friendbot2000 posted:Exactly, get involved. Start putting pressure on them now and keep ramping it up. Join an environmental group and start building a bench to primary people. You can do a shitton of work as an individual or a small to enact change to government. We are seeing a huge groundswell for environmentalist support, the momentum needs to be fed by our blood, sweat, and tears to make concrete change though. Being America-centric again here, but how are you going to primary your way out of an unfairly composed, minority-ruled Senate anywhere near in time to stave off catastrophe? American politics are a massive roadblock to the radical change that is necessary. Like, are abolishing the Senate and driving the Democratic party significantly more left than it is now prerequisites to meaningful change? What's that going to take? 10, 20, 30 years?
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Jan 18, 2019 23:04
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Insanite posted:Being America-centric again here, but how are you going to primary your way out of an unfairly composed, minority-ruled Senate anywhere near in time to stave off catastrophe? counterpoint: AOC alone has put the overton window on wheels. Institutions are very nonlinear things.
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Jan 18, 2019 23:12
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Also the difference between a 10 or 20 or 30 year delay on action is like the difference between a pliocene vs miocene vs eocene climate. The outcomes aren't binary and things can always get worse.
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Jan 18, 2019 23:13
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We can still avert the extinction of complex life if people get really mad and demand a polar shift in how humanity functions. So start getting really loving mad and make hard personal sacrifices to get poo poo done. Less post, more effort. 
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Jan 18, 2019 23:20
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The Constitution says that "no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate." But does mean that you can't amend the Constitution to remove the Senate, or that you can't amend the Constitution to change how seats in the Senate are apportioned, but if you remove everyone's seats in the Senate equally by abolishing it, that's ok? I'm not sure if there are parts of the Constitution that are essentially read-only and can't be overridden by amendments.
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Jan 18, 2019 23:23
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:counterpoint: AOC alone has put the overton window on wheels. Hey, I hope it all works out. I think that the GND is rather squishy and focused on building our way out of trouble, though. Americans are definitely willing to shift money into renewables and force car manufacturers to have high fuel-efficiency standards. Limiting private energy use or mandating meatless Mondays, though, I think, still wouldn't poll so well. I don't think we'll be ready for real sacrifice and total change until, like, Miami has to be abandoned. But in the "people who need to burn in hell" file, merchants of doubt: https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/01/to-fight-climate-misinformation-point-to-the-man-behind-the-curtain/ Insanite fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Jan 18, 2019 |
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Jan 18, 2019 23:24
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Insanite posted:Hey, I hope it all works out. I think that the GND is rather squishy and focused on building our way out of trouble, though. This makes me think about how the Green Vests have made it clear that that a purely punitive approach to decarbonization is doomed to failure, which is why you need something that builds in a jobs guarantee and transfer payments, but no matter what we need to price externalities into basic commodities as a matter of policy. Making meat properly expensive might be an even bigger culture shock than taking SUVs off the road.
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Jan 18, 2019 23:41
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I feel Iike "dying really gruesomely" should poll worse than "McDonald's is forced out of business by government action", but the yellow vests make it clear that people will only fight the government to try and perpetuate the current status quo as long as possible.
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Jan 19, 2019 00:11
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I feel the same way. "Encourage McDonalds with tax incentives to offer vegetarian meals and switch to 25% renewable energy nationwide" feels likeliest to be in whatever version of the GND is ultimately passed. I do think that justice (hell, a renegotiation of what we consider work to be and what is must provide us) is an important part of a GND, but things get complicated when you have a lot of opportunists and confused leftists calling carbon/gas/consumption/use taxes regressive non-starters. If banning behaviors is authoritarian, and charging a fair price for the damage carbon does to our world is regressive, what's left? I don't know what sort of deal isn't going to cause some people to feel pain and, as a result, change how or where they live. Wealth transfers should have a role in that--fair is fair, and there's also the backlog of inequities that capitalism's given us--but they can't be a complete anodyne. e: Or we can fail amidst the same old progressive and environmentalist infighting that always seems to happen: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/01/first-fight-about-democrats-climate-green-new-deal/580543/ quote:Of the hundreds of groups that issued the demands, one stood out: the Sunrise Movement, a new, youth-led activism corps that flung the Green New Deal into national prominence last year. More established organizations—including Friends of the Earth, 350.org, and the Center for Biological Diversity—also signed. Insanite fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Jan 19, 2019 |
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Jan 19, 2019 00:19
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Rime posted:but the yellow vests make it clear that people will only fight the government to try and perpetuate the current status quo as long as possible. Think about this in terms of stability. Stability is the tendency of a system to return to it's orginal state after something has disturbed it. They want the things promised to them by society, explictly and implicitly. Of course they'll fight to return to that original state. They want the course of thier lives to be stable. But that state isn't sustainable in terms of climate systems. The climate systems are unstable and that instability is caused by the effort to keep the first systen the socio-economic system stable. So the goal would be to find another stable state in the ecnomics and politics, that also produced a stable state in the climate systems. Insanite posted:If banning behaviors is authoritarian, and charging a fair price for the damage carbon does to our world is regressive, what's left? Look at the reaction a gas tax caused. Let's say some of the more radical posters solutions were enacted. What type of reactions would they cause? We need to think in new ways. Let's take the b conversation about childern. Some posters will make the point "they'll have less than you". That's probably true. Less isn't nessisarily worse. Maybe we could have better systems and less things and be happier. It's like the question of farming. It's not factory farms vs single acre subsistence. It's what we have now vs a new system that doesn't currently exist or that exists but must become the primary system. Less doesn't have to be worse if the new system is better.
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Jan 19, 2019 01:40
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The gas tax was a detonator for the protests, but you've got to keep in mind the context: Macron is a neoliberal through-and-through, who upon assuming office did the trickle-down trick of cutting taxes for businesses and the wealthy to stimulate growth, while implementing austerity for the proles. Forcing additional taxes through on top of that was, then, was a slap on the face for the bottom quintiles. It'd have been a much easier sale in the context of better wealth redistribution (Carbon Tax into UBI).
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Jan 19, 2019 01:57
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As much as personal vehicle use needs to be curbed I totally understand and support the yellow vest protests in Paris. The gas tax is regressive as gently caress and nobody should have to tolerate the ruling class placing all the burden on the proles, it's complete bullshit. Imagine being stuck on a plane with its engines out that isn't going to manage to glide to safety and the rich assholes in first class are demanding the people in coach toss their pennies out the windows while clinging to bricks of gold. gently caress that I'd tell them "you first" and stare em down until either they tossed their poo poo or we augered in.
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Jan 19, 2019 02:03
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BrandorKP posted:Think about this in terms of stability. Stability is the tendency of a system to return to it's orginal state after something has disturbed it. They want the things promised to them by society, explictly and implicitly. Of course they'll fight to return to that original state. They want the course of thier lives to be stable. But that state isn't sustainable in terms of climate systems. The climate systems are unstable and that instability is caused by the effort to keep the first systen the socio-economic system stable. So the goal would be to find another stable state in the ecnomics and politics, that also produced a stable state in the climate systems. But what would that state mean? Like specifically? Like here are the questions off the top of my head: * How many times a year can I buy clothes? I tend to be a bit careless and they rip easily. * Will I have to farm and for how long? 14 hours a day every day? Will I have to go into the developing world pattern of getting tons of kids to act as my child slaves in providing food for me and themselves? Will I then have my back broken and have to have my children take care of me and if I don't have them starve to death? * Will I have to learn self defense? Will I have to learn how to harm another human being to preserve my own, likely less worthy existence? * What will people talk about? Will culture be lost? Science? Will we all have to talk about the weather? * Will I be forced to find some sort of community that will tolerate me? Have to learn skills in function of what other people immediately need as opposed to what I like to do just for the hope that other people will like me enough to help me? For all D&D talks about how the current system is unsustainable, no one ever says what a new system will look like. Would you tear down a house without knowing where you will live? And before anyone replies "The house is on FIRE", I say that it's still slow enough to be more of a toxic mold.
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Jan 19, 2019 10:15
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here is how you help the invertebrates 1) go to your local state forest 2) fill some plastic bags with soil 3) collect whatever's in seed and place it in the soil 4) bring the bags back to your place of residence and arrange them outside 5) water them daily 6) exert absolutely no pest control of any kind 7) observe and record the invertebrate population every day, graph the number of species that you see and watch the trend line go up up up (it will i promise, and when it does you have a measurable record of your positive impact on the world and when your depression is telling you that you've never accomplished anything, you can tell your depression that you fostered your local loving population of invertebrates and it can gently caress off)
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Jan 19, 2019 12:36
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it helps if you pierce drainage holes in the plastic bags and make sure there's contact between the ground soil and the bag soil. the earthworms will find their way into the bag as long as you make it physically possible for them to pass. just pretend you are an earthworm, and you are trying to find your way from the ground into the plastic bag in which a beautiful native seedling is growing, and line the holes up accordingly
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Jan 19, 2019 12:42
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post itt when you've got a thriving diversity of invertebrates, and i'll tell you how to summon the birds
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Jan 19, 2019 12:43
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can you divulge the bird secrets it's like 20 degrees where i am right now and i don't want to freeze any inverts which tier on your patreon gets bird secret access?
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Jan 19, 2019 13:28
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Zeno's Paradox but instead of a room it's the end of all known life.
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Jan 19, 2019 18:07
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I have a big yard with a lot of mature trees that makes growing grass nearly impossible so I don’t exert any kind of pest or weed control beyond weeding invasive species by hand (and removing trash that blows in) and there are lots of birds. I think a big thing was giving the land time to recover from years of roundup based poisoning but there must be plenty of bugs for them to eat in there. Just gotta let the land be
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Jan 19, 2019 19:20
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avshalemon posted:here is how you help the invertebrates This is such a good idea. As a human it's insanely easy to help, sustain or even keep invertebrates in general, given that we are 2500 times their size and change our environment more effectively than any other animal, while they consider ten square meter of soil as the world in its full scale. The biological population of an arthropod species may be insanely complex and rely on hundreds of various factors (which is the cause of having so many of them die off due to stuff changing too fast, too) but a local number of animals do not require much to be happy, healthy and productive. This kind of stuff is a beautiful example of how "Think globally, act locally" can actually work and at least improve (or provide) the life of thousands of animals literally in your own backyard. May not save the world, but at least some life and certainly your mind. edit: just realized, I came to this thread and saw those numbers and the already started end of the world and saw hopeless faces everywhere, but avshalemon, this was unironically a really good and nice post and you filled my innocent heart with joy with it Goons Are Gifts fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Jan 19, 2019 |
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Jan 19, 2019 19:27
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I guess I'll take a crack at it and try filling dirt into this bottomless pit.AceOfFlames posted:But what would that state mean? Like specifically? Like here are the questions off the top of my head:
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Jan 19, 2019 20:30
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The question is no longer whether or not we are going to fail, but how are we going to comport ourselves in the era of failure?quote:Just before flying to St. Paul, I met with Bruce Wright in Anchorage, Alaska. He’s a senior scientist with the Aleutian Pribilof Islands Association, has worked for the National Marine Fisheries Service, and was a section chief for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration for 11 years. “We’re not going to stop this train wreck,” he assures me grimly. “We are not even trying to slow down the production of CO2 [carbon dioxide], and there is already enough CO2 in the atmosphere.” Ah well, what does he know. He's just some negative nancy and should show some positivity so that the sadbrains don't get sadder! quote:My research also took me to the University of Miami, Coral Gables, where I met the chair of the Department of Geological Science, Harold Wanless, an expert in sea-level rise. I asked him what he would say to people who think we still have time to mitigate the impacts of runaway climate change. “We can’t undo this,” he replied. “How are you going to cool down the ocean? We’re already there.” Meh, just another loser who should clearly focus on recycling and encouraging his neighbors to buy more sustainable products. Nothing to worry about that selling some electric cars won't fix! quote:In July 2017, I traveled to Camp 41 in the heart of the Brazilian Amazon rainforest, part of a project founded four decades ago by Thomas Lovejoy, known to many as the “godfather of biodiversity.” While visiting him, I also met Vitek Jirinec, an ornithologist from the Czech Republic who had held 11 different wildlife positions from Alaska to Jamaica. In the process, he became all too well acquainted with the signs of biological collapse among the birds he was studying. He’d watched as some Amazon populations like that of the black-tailed leaftosser declined by 95 percent; he’d observed how mosquitoes in Hawaii were killing off native bird populations; he’d explored how saltwater intrusion into Alaska’s permafrost was changing bird habitats there. Pffft, who gives a poo poo. As this thread knows all too well, the only thing which matters is extinguishing all biodiversity on the planet in order to sustain an ever-increasing tide of humanity. It doesn't matter if the entire food chain goes extinct, so long as we can sell McDonalds and grow the consumer base in Indonesia! Dude needs to pipe down, he's clearly just a fearmongerer. quote:To give you an idea of how much heat the oceans have absorbed: If that heat had instead gone into the atmosphere, the global temperature would be 97 degrees Fahrenheit hotter than it is today. For those who think that there are still 12 years left to change things, the question posed by Wanless seems painfully apt: How do we remove all the heat that’s already been absorbed by the oceans? Meh, no problem here, carry on with your small-scale local gardening and recycling initiatives. After all, that's what is truly going to save the earth and not just an ego-fluffing way for you to push off the existential dread of what starts happening within in a decade and is driven by systems entirely out of your control or ability to mitigate on a personal level. quote:Two weeks after that Nature article came out, a study in Scientific Reports warned that the extinction of animal and plant species thanks to climate change could lead to a “domino effect” that might, in the end, annihilate life on the planet. It suggested that organisms will die out at increasingly rapid rates because they depend on other species that are also on their way out. It’s a process the study calls “co-extinction.” According to its authors, a five-to-six-degree Celsius rise in average global temperatures might be enough to annihilate most of Earth’s living creatures. Nah, just hyperbolic fatalism, won't impact the next anime season don't worry go buy a body pillow. quote:To put this in perspective: Just a two degree rise will leave dozens of the world’s coastal mega-cities flooded, thanks primarily to melting ice sheets in Greenland and Antarctica, as well as the thermal expansion of the oceans as they warm. There will be 32 times as many heat waves in India and nearly half a billion more people will suffer water scarcity. At three degrees, southern Europe will be in permanent drought and the area burned annually by wildfires in the United States will sextuple. These impacts, it’s worth noting, may already be baked into the system, even if every country that signed the Paris climate accord were to fully honor its commitments, which most of them are not currently doing. poo poo, I better get back on that small scale local change bandwagon fast, have to make up for the approxmately 5 billion people on earth who don't give a flying gently caress if they destroy the planet just so long as they have a new iPhone and an SUV to drive around their five offspring in. quote:At four degrees, global grain yields could drop by half, most likely resulting in annual worldwide food crises (along with far more war, general conflict, and migration than at present). Author is clearly racist. quote:The International Energy Agency has already shown that maintaining our current fossil-fueled economic system would virtually guarantee a six-degree rise in the Earth’s temperature before 2050. To add insult to injury, a 2017 analysis from oil giants BP and Shell indicated that they expected the planet to be five degrees warmer by mid-century. Yo friendbot2000, Imma let you finish but I truly do not give a gently caress if someone with depression can't stop reading this thread because ultimately the science agrees we've already jumped off the cliff of us all. loving. Dying. Get it? And again, for emphasis: quote:We have a finite amount of time left to coexist with significant parts of the biosphere, including glaciers, coral, and thousands of species of plants, animals, and insects. We’re going to have to learn how to say goodbye to them. BRB, putting in another 80 hour week building green energy and pretending it matters - because these fuckers have a lifespan of maybe 18 years tops in a climate as harsh as North Ontario. 
Rime fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Jan 19, 2019 |
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Jan 19, 2019 21:04
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No one that posts in this thread could have stopped this
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Jan 19, 2019 21:17
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quote:Yo friendbot2000, Imma let you finish but I truly do not give a gently caress if someone with depression can't stop reading this thread because ultimately the science agrees we've already jumped off the cliff of us all. loving. Dying. Get it? Cool, great then you can stop posting.  Stuff like this is why I started shitposting this thread in the first place. If doomporn is all the thread is good for, then it's done and can make its way down to the archives where it will degrade into all the nutrients a good thread needs to thrive in our forum ecosystem.For some semi-actual content: The hotel I'm staying at right now has a fitness center. In the fitness center, they have motherfucking disposable headphones. Bottled water pisses me off enough already, but to actually be creating single-use electronics that get tossed directly into a goddamned landfill? loving hell.
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Jan 19, 2019 21:23
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