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EBB
Feb 15, 2005

Fart Cannon posted:

You brought me a birthday cake. Thanks!

Happy belated :)

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maffew buildings
Apr 29, 2009

too dumb to be probated; not too dumb to be autobanned
If there was an option for civilian medical at a couple hundred bucks a month while AD I would never consider walking

Crab Dad
Dec 28, 2002

behold i have tempered and refined thee, but not as silver; as CRAB


maffew buildings posted:

If there was an option for civilian medical at a couple hundred bucks a month while AD I would never consider walking

Don’t be such a baby. Now bend over so we can inspect your sinus cavity infection.

vulturesrow
Sep 25, 2011

Always gotta pay it forward.
Apparently one of the individuals killed in the Syria attack was one of us.

https://news.usni.org/2019/01/18/sailor-among-killed-isis-attack-syria

Crab Dad
Dec 28, 2002

behold i have tempered and refined thee, but not as silver; as CRAB


gently caress. Poor family.

orange juche
Mar 14, 2012



vulturesrow posted:

Apparently one of the individuals killed in the Syria attack was one of us.

https://news.usni.org/2019/01/18/sailor-among-killed-isis-attack-syria

Two

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/18/syria-suicide-bomb-manbij-victims

Scott Wirtz was killed too, he was a DIA civilian who was an ex-SEAL, deployed in support of OIR in Manbij.

maffew buildings
Apr 29, 2009

too dumb to be probated; not too dumb to be autobanned
So I got an approval for an MRI and scheduled with the local provider tricare authorizes (scheduled before approval went through). It just got approved and is telling me go to a site 350 miles away at my home of record. Anyone else had this issue, feedback on quickly correcting?

Wonder Free
Jun 19, 2006

Throw some D's..

maffew buildings posted:

So I got an approval for an MRI and scheduled with the local provider tricare authorizes (scheduled before approval went through). It just got approved and is telling me go to a site 350 miles away at my home of record. Anyone else had this issue, feedback on quickly correcting?

I’ve had it happen across town, not something as extreme as yours. You should be able to call the tricare referral line and have them switch it. I don’t know the specific number for it, but you should be able to call the main tricare phone number and navigate phone tree hell to connect to them.

maffew buildings
Apr 29, 2009

too dumb to be probated; not too dumb to be autobanned
Thanks for feedback. It's extra special because AD is auto enrolled at point of duty with a facility. Good work, tricare.

piL
Sep 20, 2007
(__|\\\\)
Taco Defender

Mr. Nice! posted:


As far as not communicating with the department head TAO, I can also get the frustration of dealing with a bad department head. A lot of SWO department heads are in the position not because they're worth a drat, but rather they're the only people who stayed in after the initial obligation.
Ships CO, my CO and my XO at the time didn't know this, but I almost merc'd a fishingnbboat on my first unsupervised OOD watch while TAD on another ship because while the CONN was distracted by her DH on the bridge chewing her out about admin, she missed the boat 100yards off the bow. When I told her to go right standard, she gave the order, the helm answered and turned the ship left. The DH was still oblivious as I shouted at the CONN to repeat the order and honestly don't know if I even thought about taking the CONN as an option. He gave me a talking to afterwards about how I need to exude more calmness and confidence on the bridge if I was going to get my pin. Meanwhile, I could still spit on the boat from the bridge wing. If I had the confidence in how to run a bridge that I do now and that wasn't within a day of me departing that ship, I would have ordered him from the bridge before we ever got there.

That DH choke point. I'm the only second tour on my (albiet small) ship to sign, though all were selected so I don't think the problem is licked quite yet.

piL
Sep 20, 2007
(__|\\\\)
Taco Defender
I continue to espouse that most of our problems come down to failure in communications. It seems that demand on and supply of time are not in concert. Requirements are not tiered so that commanders can focus on the 'important core parts' of requirements to get the plates spinning and then move to elevating programs. It's all or nothing, which leads to everything being little kid soccer and very little sustained push in any one area.

An SSI article from 2015 illustrates a relationship between overwork/excessive requirements and degradation of quality of training, honesty and reporting. Meanwhile, the GAO reports as early as 2010, that the Navy has no institutional knowledge of what goes into an in-port work week.

GAO, Actions Needed to Address Persistent Maintenance, Training, and Other Challenges Affecting the Fleet, Sep 2017 (1), emphasis mine posted:

To ensure that the Navy’s manpower requirements are current and analytically based and will meet the needs of the existing and future surface fleet, the Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness should direct the Secretary of the Navy to have the Navy update guidance to require examination of in-port workload and identify the manpower necessary to execute in-port workload for all surface ship classes.

GAO Navy Needs to Reassess Its Metrics and Assumptions for Ship Crewing Requirements and Training (2), emphasis mine posted:

While best practices require that valid and reliable data are used to assess workforce requirements, the Navy has not tested the validity of its assumption for excluding in-port data. [...] Additionally, we were told by shipboard personnel that in-port workload is increasing, which raises questions about the Navy’s assumption that workload while a ship is underway exceeds in-port workload. [...] Although in-port workload has varied over time, the Navy has not collected information to estimate such changes and determine whether it should adjust its assumption.

From 2010 to 2018, the Navy still doesn't seem to know what we're doing on a daily basis and what the costs/benefits of changes in requirements or manning may be.

SSI Lying to Ourselves: Dishonesty in the Army Profession (3), emphasis mine posted:

It has been fairly well established that the Army as an institution is quick to pass down requirements to individuals and units regardless of their ability to actually comply with the totality of the requirements. In 2001, the Army
Training and Leader Development Panel noted this disturbing trend:

quote:

Much of the Army, from the most senior levels on down, no longer follows or cannot follow the Army’s training management doctrine. The doctrine, when applied to support mission focus, prioritizes tasks and locks in training far enough out to provide predictability and allocate resources. It acknowledges that units cannot do everything because there are not enough resources, especially time. Today’s Army ignores the training doctrine.

[...]

After a few minutes into the discussion (usually about 20), however, hints would inevitably emerge that there was something deeper involved in the situation. For example, one senior officer reflected upon the pressures of complying with every training directive and stated, “You find ways to qualify your answer. It’s not quibbling—it’s assuming risk.” When pressed for specifics on how they managed, officers tended to dodge the issue with statements such as, “You gotta make priorities, we met the intent, or we got creative.” Eventually words and phrases such as “hand waving, fudging, massaging, or checking the box” would surface to sugarcoat the hard reality that, in order to satisfy compliance with the surfeit of directed requirements from above, officers resort to evasion and deception. In other words, in the routine performance of their duties as leaders and commanders, U.S. Army officers lie.

[...]

At the outset of this monograph, it was brashly declared that most U.S. Army officers routinely lie. It would not be surprising if many uniformed readers raised a skeptical eyebrow at that claim. Indeed, it would not be unusual for nearly all military readers to maintain a self-identity that takes offense with notions of dishonesty or deception. Ironically, though, many of the same people who flinched at that initial accusation of deceit probably yawned with each new example of untruthfulness offered in the preceding pages.

“White” lies and “innocent” mistruths have become so commonplace in the U.S. Army that there is often no ethical angst, no deep soul-searching, and no righteous outrage when examples of routine dishonesty are encountered. Mutually agreed deception exists in the Army because many decisions to lie, cheat, or steal are simply no longer viewed as ethical choices.

Behavioral ethics experts point out that people often fail to recognize the moral components of an ethical decision because of ethical fading. Ethical fading occurs when the “moral colors of an ethical decision fade into bleached hues that are void of moral implications.”13 Ethical fading allows us to convince ourselves that considerations of right or wrong are not applicable to decisions that in any other circumstances would be ethical dilemmas. This is not so much because we lack a moral foundation or adequate ethics training, but because psychological processes and influencing factors subtly neutralize the “ethics” from an ethical dilemma. Ethical fading allows Army officers to transform morally wrong behavior into socially acceptable conduct by dimming the glare and guilt of the ethical spotlight.

Above - an etiology for reporting, watchstanding, and ethical failures from too many requirements and incentives against communication.

One of the first lesson sets I learned from Officer Candidate Schools is as follows. Immediately the following conditions were set: I was to sleep between the sheets every night, my bed would need to be made by reville, no one would enter my room without announcing themselves, and that we would not be issued alarm clocks. This teaches you a few things. One, that you're on the hook whether the matter was directly within your control or not--this is essential for honor cultures(4), and likely a requirement for an effective military fighting force. It taught you to work together at the unit in spite of and not necessarily with your governing doctrine (i.e. when a section leader was permitted an alarm clock, find a way to rouse the group without exiting any individual room and work together as a group to pass that action). But finally, that you would be tested on your end product, and that there was a willing and seemingly intentional ignorance of the actions that you may have to take to get there. This last one is a dangerous lesson that takes active engagement to counter, and if it were countered at all levels, I'm not sure the Navy would continue to function without radical restructuring.

(1) John H. Pendleton, Diretor, Defense Capabilities and Management, United States Government Accounability Office, GAO-17-809T Actions Needed to Address Persistent Maintenance, Training, and Other Challenges Affecting the Fleet, September 2017

(2) United States Government Accountability Office Report to Congressional Committees, GAO-10-592, Navy Needs to Reassess Its Metrics and Assumptions for Ship Crewing Requirements and Training, June 2010

(3) Leonard Wong, Stephen J. Gerras, U.S. Army War College Strategic Studies Institute, Pub 1250, Lying to Ourselves: Dishonesty in the Army Profession, Februrary 2015

(4) Tammler Sommers, Ingram Publisher Services US, Why Honor Matters, May 2018

Wingnut Ninja
Jan 11, 2003

Mostly Harmless
One of my buddies who did some private sector admin work before joining has a good take on this. In the private sector, broadly speaking, if you want to implement a project that will take 20 man hours, you need to make the case that it's worth 20 hours of wages. The military is happy to say "you just stay here until you get it done" without having to account for any of that in a concrete way. The only real constraint is a commander's judgment on what an appropriate workload is.

A great example that I've recently been dealing with is the base-wide SAPR watch. Someone decided that the best way to prevent sexual assault is to have a bunch of CPOs and LTs roving the barracks all night watching out for rapists like they're in a loving Batman comic. If they had tried to do this with hired security guards it would have been shot down immediately as a blatant waste of money, but khaki time is effectively free, so now it's one more bullshit duty we get to stand.

maffew buildings
Apr 29, 2009

too dumb to be probated; not too dumb to be autobanned
If they're looking to prevent these incidents why are they sending khakis

Crab Dad
Dec 28, 2002

behold i have tempered and refined thee, but not as silver; as CRAB


maffew buildings posted:

If they're looking to prevent these incidents why are they sending khakis

Well if the foxes are too busy guarding the hen house they won’t have time to eat the chickens.

ManMythLegend
Aug 18, 2003

I don't believe in anything, I'm just here for the violence.

piL posted:

Ships CO, my CO and my XO at the time didn't know this, but I almost merc'd a fishingnbboat on my first unsupervised OOD watch while TAD on another ship

Well I loving know now.

Elendil004
Mar 22, 2003

The prognosis
is not good.


ManMythLegend posted:

Well I loving know now.

He said "almost"

Crab Dad
Dec 28, 2002

behold i have tempered and refined thee, but not as silver; as CRAB


ManMythLegend posted:

Well I loving know now.

lol

Mr. Nice!
Oct 13, 2005

bone shaking.
soul baking.

Crab Dad
Dec 28, 2002

behold i have tempered and refined thee, but not as silver; as CRAB


Y’all have no idea how happy I am the most serious thing I could gently caress up is an NMCI asset I drop because I’m trying to hold it and my rockstar while walking.

piL
Sep 20, 2007
(__|\\\\)
Taco Defender

ManMythLegend posted:

Well I loving know now.

:angel: Learned a lot that TAD, and I thank you for it. :angel:

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?

ManMythLegend posted:

Well I loving know now.

poo poo like this and weapon disassembly tips are why I keep following this thread.

ManMythLegend
Aug 18, 2003

I don't believe in anything, I'm just here for the violence.

piL posted:

:angel: Learned a lot that TAD, and I thank you for it. :angel:

We'll I'm glad that if you were going to crash a ship you had the decency to not make it mine.

Crab Dad
Dec 28, 2002

behold i have tempered and refined thee, but not as silver; as CRAB


Did you guys really cruise together because omg

FrozenVent
May 1, 2009

The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.
One time I almost ran down a fishing boat because the wheelsman “thought I’d already seen it.”

I chewed him out after that.

Welp that’s my fishing boat story.

Nick Soapdish
Apr 27, 2008


Good to know as I was working in EXPLOT and FLAGPLOT that ship's company was trying to kill us all

Crab Dad
Dec 28, 2002

behold i have tempered and refined thee, but not as silver; as CRAB


FrozenVent posted:

One time I almost ran down a fishing boat because the wheelsman “thought I’d already seen it.”

I chewed him out after that.

Welp that’s my fishing boat story.

Was it a Chinese flagged boat?

Because if so ehhhhhh

ManMythLegend
Aug 18, 2003

I don't believe in anything, I'm just here for the violence.

LingcodKilla posted:

Did you guys really cruise together because omg

Yes, I was really his XO/CO.

piL
Sep 20, 2007
(__|\\\\)
Taco Defender

ManMythLegend posted:

Yes, I was really his XO/CO.

Much better than I deserved. Would have been better if he didn't wait until after I left to hold MTG tournaments, but then again maybe the detox was healthier.

FrozenVent
May 1, 2009

The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

LingcodKilla posted:

Was it a Chinese flagged boat?

Because if so ehhhhhh

It was off the coast of Algeria and wasn’t really flying a flag.

Spy trawlers don’t give no fucks about 30 y/o bulk carriers in ballast.

shovelbum
Oct 21, 2010

Fun Shoe
I like to assume from the safety of my engineer's lair that everything on the deck side is being handled with professionalism and utmost skill.

Elendil004
Mar 22, 2003

The prognosis
is not good.


I once chewed out a confused lookout who didn't report a helicopter 30 yards off the bridge wing because he figured we'd seen it.

It wasn't our helicopter.

We looked out, and the crew chief had a big sign that had a HF freq on it and was gesturing wildly to it.

Turns out they were running on fumes and couldn't find the TACAN for their ship, saw us and figured it was better than ditching. Since we didn't have a helo on, nobody was listening to guard. Boy we set flight quarters so fast it wasn't even funny.

McNally
Sep 13, 2007

Ask me about Proposition 305


Do you like muskets?

Elendil004 posted:

I once chewed out a confused lookout who didn't report a helicopter 30 yards off the bridge wing because he figured we'd seen it.

It wasn't our helicopter.

We looked out, and the crew chief had a big sign that had a HF freq on it and was gesturing wildly to it.

Turns out they were running on fumes and couldn't find the TACAN for their ship, saw us and figured it was better than ditching. Since we didn't have a helo on, nobody was listening to guard. Boy we set flight quarters so fast it wasn't even funny.

:stare:

Crab Dad
Dec 28, 2002

behold i have tempered and refined thee, but not as silver; as CRAB


piL posted:

Much better than I deserved. Would have been better if he didn't wait until after I left to hold MTG tournaments, but then again maybe the detox was healthier.

That’s cool. So far I’ve had dinner with a bitter bee but he’s a cool cat.

Nick Soapdish
Apr 27, 2008


I don't read any of the other service threads because gently caress them, but I assume we have the best stories hands down

The Valley Stared
Nov 4, 2009

Elendil004 posted:

I once chewed out a confused lookout who didn't report a helicopter 30 yards off the bridge wing because he figured we'd seen it.

It wasn't our helicopter.

We looked out, and the crew chief had a big sign that had a HF freq on it and was gesturing wildly to it.

Turns out they were running on fumes and couldn't find the TACAN for their ship, saw us and figured it was better than ditching. Since we didn't have a helo on, nobody was listening to guard. Boy we set flight quarters so fast it wasn't even funny.

:dogbutton:

I'm uh, going to guess that the CO, XO came up to the bridge right quick.

Cerekk
Sep 24, 2004

Oh my god, JC!

ManMythLegend posted:

We'll I'm glad that if you were going to crash a ship you had the decency to not make it mine.

C'mon everybody knows that if you run over some tiny rear end boat and kill everyone while doing basically no damage to your own ship, you just retire with full pay and benefits and then make some more money writing a book about it that puts all the blame on your crew.

Butter Activities
May 4, 2018

Cerekk posted:

C'mon everybody knows that if you run over some tiny rear end boat and kill everyone while doing basically no damage to your own ship, you just retire with full pay and benefits and then make some more money writing a book about it that puts all the blame on your crew.

drat that’s peak SWO right there.

shovelbum
Oct 21, 2010

Fun Shoe

Cerekk posted:

C'mon everybody knows that if you run over some tiny rear end boat and kill everyone while doing basically no damage to your own ship, you just retire with full pay and benefits and then make some more money writing a book about it that puts all the blame on your crew.

A merchant captain would probably still be in Japanese prison lmao

ManMythLegend
Aug 18, 2003

I don't believe in anything, I'm just here for the violence.

Cerekk posted:

C'mon everybody knows that if you run over some tiny rear end boat and kill everyone while doing basically no damage to your own ship, you just retire with full pay and benefits and then make some more money writing a book about it that puts all the blame on your crew.

lol. What a loving fucker.

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M_Gargantua
Oct 16, 2006

STOMP'N ON INTO THE POWERLINES

Exciting Lemon
Luckily in the years following Greeneville kept being bad and then eventually turned itself around for a brief few years where it was one of the less hosed up pacflt boats.

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