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Dabir posted:he's right Yeah. Complexity for complexity's sake is often silly. It's pretty much the reason I loathe Dota. I can see the arguments for it ("who can execute better under pressure" and "I find it fun") but if you care more about the mind games aspect of fighting games, then it's just a detriment. It's cool that there's games like Fantasy Strike that are trying to strip away input complexity. That said, it's removing the execution barrier for both players. I made the mistake of thinking I stood a better chance in Fantasy Strike then I did other fighting games. I did not.
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Jan 22, 2019 19:04
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smash bros is the only good fighting game
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Jan 22, 2019 19:06
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Are any of the guys playing Red Dead 50,000 Inputs That All Do Different Things Redemption 2? I haven't listened to the podcast stuff in a while. That game is the prime example of how context sensitive controls mapped to the same button are the loving devil, I would like to hear their opinions of it but it has no buster swords so I'm not sure if any of them have played it
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Jan 22, 2019 19:20
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CJacobs posted:The only bad fighting game combos are ones that require you to reset the stick to neutral and I cannot think of many of those. Im sorry but Tekken 7 Lee’s combos loving rule. When you do 7 of his Back 2 Forward Neutral loops it rules.
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Jan 22, 2019 19:20
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CJacobs posted:Are any of the guys playing Red Dead 50,000 Inputs That All Do Different Things Redemption 2? I haven't listened to the podcast stuff in a while. That game is the prime example of how context sensitive controls mapped to the same button are the loving devil, I would like to hear their opinions of it but it has no buster swords so I'm not sure if any of them have played it Pat played it on stream when it came out and got twitch to retweet his horse bugging out and running him over twice. https://clips.twitch.tv/ImpartialEndearingOrangeYouDontSay MagusDraco fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Jan 22, 2019 |
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Jan 22, 2019 19:25
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MagusDraco posted:Pat played it on stream when it came out and got twitch to retweet his horse bugging out and running him over twice. https://clips.twitch.tv/ImpartialEndearingOrangeYouDontSay Oh yeah I remember this clip. Hell yeah cyclone horse.
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Jan 22, 2019 19:42
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Oxyclean posted:Yeah. Complexity for complexity's sake is often silly. It's pretty much the reason I loathe Dota. It's not complexity for complexity's sake it's so you aren't accidentally throwing a fire ball ever. If you map fireball to something like forward and punch you're not going to be able to punch while walking forward unless you let go of the stick first. Also if you think a fireball motion is complicated you either haven't played a fighting game in 20 years or you gave up after five minutes. Modern fighting games are incredibly forgiving with motions. And before someone says "well Smash Bros had simplified special moves" Smash Bros literally only has two attack buttons, and one is devoted entirely to special moves.
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Jan 22, 2019 20:18
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TechnoSyndrome posted:It's not complexity for complexity's sake it's so you aren't accidentally throwing a fire ball ever. If you map fireball to something like forward and punch you're not going to be able to punch while walking forward unless you let go of the stick first. Also if you think a fireball motion is complicated you either haven't played a fighting game in 20 years or you gave up after five minutes. Modern fighting games are incredibly forgiving with motions. What, no, you would just have a fireball button that only throws fireballs. Rising Thunder or DBZF are examples of this. Admittedly, Smash Brothers does have the issue that you're bringing up (it's actually worse with three different stick states + attack button), but I also don't consider Smash Brothers controls to be all that good for a fighter either. -e- I forgot that there's a difference between walking attacks and running attacks so it's four different states + the attack button on the ground. Belgian Waffle fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Jan 22, 2019 |
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Jan 22, 2019 22:58
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I mean, if you guys played Rising Thunder you'd understand why you don't wanna simplify inputs a lot, but that would assume that people that bitch about motions in fighting games actually play them, so...
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Jan 22, 2019 23:36
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TechnoSyndrome posted:It's not complexity for complexity's sake it's so you aren't accidentally throwing a fire ball ever. If you map fireball to something like forward and punch you're not going to be able to punch while walking forward unless you let go of the stick first. Also if you think a fireball motion is complicated you either haven't played a fighting game in 20 years or you gave up after five minutes. Modern fighting games are incredibly forgiving with motions. You also cant' tell me there isn't motions more complex then fireballs, but I'll cop to not playing many modern fighting games so I'm unfamiliar with how forgiving things are. Dias posted:I mean, if you guys played Rising Thunder you'd understand why you don't wanna simplify inputs a lot, but that would assume that people that bitch about motions in fighting games actually play them, so... That said, I feel like if I actually wanted to give an honest go at learning fighting games, I'd rather go for something with less input complexity because my garbage brains suck at remembering move lists.
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Jan 22, 2019 23:47
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Most modern fighting games have done away with anything more complex than Dragon Punch motion and even then that's being phased out in some games. This is not to mention 3D fighters like Tekken that don't have motions like that outside of fringe cases like the Mishimas or whatever the hell Ivy's dumb thing is in SC. Like the complaining about motions being too complex has always been silly to me because unless poo poo is like the Geese's pretzel motion or having carnage scissors input on regular moves like some of the poo poo Slayer does in guilty gear they never really have been that difficult, but you are being catered to in more modern games.Belgian Waffle posted:What, no, you would just have a fireball button that only throws fireballs. Rising Thunder or DBZF are examples of this. Do you mean Ki Blasts? Because that's just another normal, Fighterz has motions for its special moves, they're just painfully easy to do. Also Rising Thunder sucks has FADC in it, one of the most newbie unfriendly mechanics in fighting games.
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Jan 23, 2019 00:22
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Listening to Woolie's most recent podcast I feel a bit sad. I feel like the only reason I listen to it is that it's Woolie (and also Plague). It just doesn't do much for me. His intro and outro (him talking, not the music) just seem kind of low energy and not super interesting (the whole ep 0 and mail episode also kind of felt like that.... Maybe it's just too weird for him doing a podcast recording by himself? I know I'd hate it). And then even listening to his and Josh's ideas I just don't feel too interested. They seem super excited about the ideas... but the ideas just kind of make me shrug. (note: I haven't finished the mecha comic one, just thinking of their talk on it so far and also episode 1). Edit: Also I remember thinking during episode 1, something along the line of: "So their game's basically a David Cage game?" Mainly because it was always the same length and nothing you did mattered beyond superficial stuff. Eventually they had a few more ideas come out that would change it some, but it mostly just seemed like it would change the look and text and not much else.
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Jan 23, 2019 01:34
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Speaking of fighting games: https://twitter.com/WoolieWoolz/status/1087856252737277952 edit: live https://www.twitch.tv/woolieversus Big Scary Owl fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Jan 23, 2019 |
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Jan 23, 2019 01:36
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I'm so glad Woolie kept the spirit of Scrublords going. I never knew I needed a crustacean fighter to exist but I'm happier knowing it does.
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Jan 23, 2019 01:42
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Just based on the couple of archives I've watched, I don't know why he called it "getting into fighting games", it's been even less informative than FNF/SMS so far.
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Jan 23, 2019 03:48
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I dunno, I mean they did spend a good chunk of time this going over how to play Balrog and they're currently doing an overview of all the GOUGI from FLEX
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Jan 23, 2019 04:12
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Baron Snow posted:I dunno, I mean they did spend a good chunk of time this going over how to play Balrog and they're currently doing an overview of all the GOUGI from FLEX I was just talking about whatever's on youtube. I'm watching the stream and it's a little more informative, mostly because Woolie brought in some other guy specifically to geek about FEXL, but it's still more of an "already into fighting games" type show, which is fine but not really what the title implies. Maybe streams just aren't the right format for that type of content.
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Jan 23, 2019 04:59
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Boy so small he could use a doorknob as a peephole
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Jan 23, 2019 07:31
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Captain Baal posted:
Well, yes, that's exactly what I was referring to. I also think it's interesting that in the context of a game with a dedicated fireball button, you refer to them as "just another normal," when they wouldn't be in almost any other fighter. To rewind to what I was trying to address in TechnoSyndrome's post, the idea that you'd map Fireball to forward + Punch to avoid having to perform a QCF + Punch is a silly idea and generally isn't what people are talking about when they want simplified controls and motions in a fighting game. The hypothetical simple fighting game would instead map Fireball to a dedicated Fireball button because that's actually intuitive.
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Jan 23, 2019 07:47
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Adding more buttons to fighting games don't make them more intuitive and if anything it creates more restrictions in some cases. Like, what do you even do for six-button fighters like SF? Have two specials per character and one super that you press two buttons for? Do you reduce the number of normals, so you can add even more buttons that have incredibly specific functions in their place and create incredibly bad control schemes? What do you do about anime fighters like Persona, Dragon Ball, Guilty Gear, etc. that have an abundance of mechanics that are usually mapped to another button as an alternative to their normal button combinations? You just have them remember the button combination which creates the problem you are trying to prevent? Like, I'm not trying to slam you for your suggestion, but it really feels like you don't know what goes into a fighting game on any level to be suggesting this like it is a complete cure all and people are going to suddeny "get" fighting games because you've done this. A fighting game needs to be built around this concept like Fantasy Strike and Rising Thunder and all other fighting games are established and have their dedicated playerbases that have come to accept how these games are. Fighterz is not one of these games, there are still motions and in the special button is a character specific button that does different things and also has motions on it for stuff like beams and various other things the characters do.Belgian Waffle posted:Well, yes, that's exactly what I was referring to. I also think it's interesting that in the context of a game with a dedicated fireball button, you refer to them as "just another normal," when they wouldn't be in almost any other fighter. This especially makes me feel like you don't understand. If you can't tell the difference between a ki blast in Dragon Ball and a hadoken in Street Fighter enough to call them the same thing I really feel like you should not be making these suggestions. Captain Baal fucked around with this message at 08:38 on Jan 23, 2019 |
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Jan 23, 2019 08:33
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A critical part of fighting game specials being inputs instead of just a button you hold/press is that it makes you vulnerable to try to execute them. There's no danger in just hitting your fireball button, or holding LT and pressing punch to throw a fireball. You and your opponent both have to actively stop trying to interact with the opponent for a split second to get your special off, which gives them time to prepare, react, or try and stop you. It's just as much for pacing fights as it is for keeping you from ever accidentally doing the input.
CJacobs fucked around with this message at 08:49 on Jan 23, 2019 |
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Jan 23, 2019 08:45
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Oh hey, speaking of fighting games. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meHvUpljEpc God drat Fire Emblems using the most common weapon since gun was invented
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Jan 23, 2019 14:14
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Captain Baal posted:Adding more buttons to fighting games don't make them more intuitive and if anything it creates more restrictions in some cases. Like, what do you even do for six-button fighters like SF? Have two specials per character and one super that you press two buttons for? Do you reduce the number of normals, so you can add even more buttons that have incredibly specific functions in their place and create incredibly bad control schemes? What do you do about anime fighters like Persona, Dragon Ball, Guilty Gear, etc. that have an abundance of mechanics that are usually mapped to another button as an alternative to their normal button combinations? You just have them remember the button combination which creates the problem you are trying to prevent? Like, I'm not trying to slam you for your suggestion, but it really feels like you don't know what goes into a fighting game on any level to be suggesting this like it is a complete cure all and people are going to suddeny "get" fighting games because you've done this. A fighting game needs to be built around this concept like Fantasy Strike and Rising Thunder and all other fighting games are established and have their dedicated playerbases that have come to accept how these games are. Fighterz is not one of these games, there are still motions and in the special button is a character specific button that does different things and also has motions on it for stuff like beams and various other things the characters do. what you do is you don't make lovely games with too many mechanics CJacobs posted:A critical part of fighting game specials being inputs instead of just a button you hold/press is that it makes you vulnerable to try to execute them. There's no danger in just hitting your fireball button, or holding LT and pressing punch to throw a fireball. You and your opponent both have to actively stop trying to interact with the opponent for a split second to get your special off, which gives them time to prepare, react, or try and stop you. It's just as much for pacing fights as it is for keeping you from ever accidentally doing the input. Other games have charge times on their mechanics without needing you to memorise the manual for a nuclear reactor
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Jan 23, 2019 14:25
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Dabir posted:Other games have charge times on their mechanics without needing you to memorise the manual for a nuclear reactor I think there's something to be gained by having special inputs be 'silent', because it takes more perception on the part of the opponent to see what you're about to do (or are attempting to do) and react fast enough. With fighting game inputs you can interrupt the combo before doing the move if your opponent does catch on, whereas with a charge up type of thing it's instantly obvious what you're trying to do and there's only limited ways to counter you- stop you from charging it, or block. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Jan 23, 2019 |
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Jan 23, 2019 14:32
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Captain Baal posted:Adding more buttons to fighting games don't make them more intuitive and if anything it creates more restrictions in some cases. Like, what do you even do for six-button fighters like SF? Have two specials per character and one super that you press two buttons for? Do you reduce the number of normals, so you can add even more buttons that have incredibly specific functions in their place and create incredibly bad control schemes? What do you do about anime fighters like Persona, Dragon Ball, Guilty Gear, etc. that have an abundance of mechanics that are usually mapped to another button as an alternative to their normal button combinations? You just have them remember the button combination which creates the problem you are trying to prevent? Like, I'm not trying to slam you for your suggestion, but it really feels like you don't know what goes into a fighting game on any level to be suggesting this like it is a complete cure all and people are going to suddeny "get" fighting games because you've done this. A fighting game needs to be built around this concept like Fantasy Strike and Rising Thunder and all other fighting games are established and have their dedicated playerbases that have come to accept how these games are. Fighterz is not one of these games, there are still motions and in the special button is a character specific button that does different things and also has motions on it for stuff like beams and various other things the characters do. You're shoving a lot of words into my mouth dude. I never said that it'd be a cure-all. I never said that pre-existing games with established mechanics should incorporate it. I think it's nice and intuitive and that's it. I consider DBFZ to have a practical application of the concept and it's combined with other mechanics that lower the barrier of entry (like auto-combos) that makes getting into the game fairly easy. quote:This especially makes me feel like you don't understand. If you can't tell the difference between a ki blast in Dragon Ball and a hadoken in Street Fighter enough to call them the same thing I really feel like you should not be making these suggestions.
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Jan 23, 2019 15:12
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no one has ever successfully argued against button inputs in fighting games without sounding like an impossible dorklord
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Jan 23, 2019 16:23
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Belgian Waffle posted:You're shoving a lot of words into my mouth dude. I never said that it'd be a cure-all. I never said that pre-existing games with established mechanics should incorporate it. I think it's nice and intuitive and that's it. The fireball button actually has inputs mapped to it in DBZ as well. Goku's Kamehameha is literally doing the Hadoken Input + Fireball button, rendering your point moot because it is in fact, a different type of "normal" input. That's the point being made against you here. DBZF is a more simplified fighter but it still has you actually having to do the inputs properly. Also yeah there is a whole sub-part of the game about trying to read what your opponent will do next/what move they're going to try and pull out/the fact that you can't see moves until the 'windup'. Fighting games aren't for everyone but more buttons would make the game more restrictive and harder for people to play, not easier. e: Dabir posted:what you do is you don't make lovely games with too many mechanics Literally the only input 90% of moves in DBFZ use is the QCF so its not like its actually that complicated. But that assumes you're arguing from good faith which lol Monathin fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Jan 23, 2019 |
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Jan 23, 2019 16:34
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there is no level of simplification that will satisfy fighting game critics because the issue is not one of mechanics but of insecurity fighting games have the most frequent and biting losses and most people dont enjoy putting up with that for an extended period of time. Fighting games are designed to be rarely gratifying.
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Jan 23, 2019 16:38
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Motions help balance powerful attacks and create design space in a fighting game. If you take them away, a lot of interesting design decisions have to either disappear or be tied to extra mechanics, like Geiger's meter in Fantasy Strike. Most "simplified" fighting games end up just adding armor to a poo poo-ton of moves to make up for how oppressive zoners can be when you literally only have to press a button to AA you. Grapplers end up being armor characters with a slightly better throw game. You take away the option of having high-execution, high-reward designs like C.Viper or C-Roa. Another thing people that don't play fighting games and talk about extinguishing motions forget: you need controller real estate for all your moves. When you add a new button for X, you're ever more limited when it comes to special options or normal attacks. Then you end up with Street Fighter 2 but with only three or two normals, because you have a throw button, and three special buttons, and a super button and a whatever gimmick your game got button...
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Jan 23, 2019 17:09
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The way fighting games control with the motions just feels really unintuitive and clunky to me. I like smash a lot too so it's definitely the.controls that are keeping me from getting into them. But whatever, not everything has to be for me.
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Jan 23, 2019 17:16
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Just play lethal league blaze my dudes
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Jan 23, 2019 17:23
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RareAcumen posted:God drat Fire Emblems using the most common weapon since gun was invented Yeah it loving sucks that out of 7 characters from the franchise there are no axes, lances or bows.
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Jan 23, 2019 17:34
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Improbable Lobster posted:Yeah it loving sucks that out of 7 characters from the franchise there are no axes, lances or bows. Lords generally use swords, which is why get the sword dudes as FE representatives
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Jan 23, 2019 17:36
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Lot of fighting games player here, mostly just stuff like wonky KoF pretzel motions and KBD waggling are complete rear end.
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Jan 23, 2019 17:42
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Andrast posted:Lords generally use swords, which is why get the sword dudes as FE representatives I mean yeah but promoted Lords also have a second weapon type which is typically spears. Except they all need to be using the game's very very special weapon which happens to be a sword.
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Jan 23, 2019 17:46
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Andrast posted:Lords generally use swords, which is why get the sword dudes as FE representatives There are like 600 different characters in FE, they could have found a spear and an axe
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Jan 23, 2019 17:49
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Improbable Lobster posted:There are like 600 different characters in FE, they could have found a spear and an axe Yeah but those generally aren't the main characters. The main(?) lady in Three Houses seems to be an axe user though so there's hope Andrast fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Jan 23, 2019 |
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Jan 23, 2019 17:51
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Simplify Fire Emblem by setting fire to the franchise and just telling people to go play dating sims imho
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Jan 23, 2019 18:01
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i have never played fire emblem or smash so take that nerds
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Jan 23, 2019 18:02
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Andrast posted:Yeah but those generally aren't the main characters. Smash has a lot of non-main characters in the roster though
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Jan 23, 2019 18:03
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