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THS posted:No one in America is keeping Maduro in power. We sorta are honestly, they don't have any refining capacity in-country so their oil goes to the Gulf Coast for that. That's why the real nightmare scenario back in the before times of sanity was the US sanctioning the PDVSA, because that would grind the whole loving economy to a halt. The actual US interest here is unfucking the PDVSA, ideally before Maduro sells the whole country off cut-rate to the Russians or Chinese. That the US government could not give one poo poo about starving foreigners goes without saying.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:25
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Freedonkeys posted:American involvement in Central and South America has always turned out well, and I'm looking forward to the continuation of our long history of positive impact in the region. If the history of American imperialism had been limited to recognizing democratically elected leaders, I think we can all agree it would have been a lot more moral than the reality of it was. Drawing a direct connection between this and that is a pretty big stretch.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:26
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Sinteres posted:If the history of American imperialism had been limited to recognizing democratically elected leaders, I think we can all agree it would have been a lot more moral than the reality of it was. Drawing a direct connection between this and that is a pretty big stretch. Except that, again, Trump has repeatedly said that he wants to invade Venezuela.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:27
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Looks like Maduro just broke relations with the US. US officials gotta haul rear end from there in 72 hours.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:27
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Then there is no issue with recognizing his re-election as illegitimate, given the fraud that took place, right? I guess if you realize that no one recognizing the “legitimate” leader on Venezuela actually gives a gently caress about any of the following things: -Election fraud -Human rights -Democratic results and that this is all cynical geopolitics and the outside pressure is being led by complete loving psychopaths in the Trump administration.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:27
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Majorian posted:Except that, again, Trump has repeatedly said that he wants to invade Venezuela. Trump said he was going to murder Assad too. Do you genuinely think he's going to invade or are you pretending to believe him to make a rhetorical point? Obviously if the US begins to posture in a way that suggests intervention, I'll switch firmly into the anti camp, but I don't think it's happening.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:27
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Sinteres posted:Trump said he was going to murder Assad too. Do you genuinely think he's going to invade or are you pretending to believe him to make a rhetorical point? No, but I do think it's pretty naive to assume that he's not going to intervene just because he hasn't pulled off an invasion yet.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:29
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Trump starting a foreign intervention during a government shutdown while he’s being humiliated over domestic policy would be pretty cool.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:29
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Negrostrike posted:Looks like Maduro just broke relations with the US. US officials gotta haul rear end from there in 72 hours. If the US doesn't recognize him as the official leader, can't they tell him to go kick rocks? I mean, obviously it'd be dangerous to a point, but on the other hand I really doubt Maduro is quite dumb enough to attack American diplomats outright.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:30
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Lightning Knight posted:And when, inevitably, this does not happen, and conveniently the new Venezuelan dictator is friendly to the US? Aw, darn, so sad, what a terrible outcome, I’m sure. How would a CIA mole in charge of Venezuela be any worse than the government they have now?
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Jan 23, 2019 21:31
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Sinteres posted:If the history of American imperialism had been limited to recognizing democratically elected leaders, I think we can all agree it would have been a lot more moral than the reality of it was. Drawing a direct connection between this and that is a pretty big stretch. Juan Guaido didn't even run for president so calling him a 'democratically elected leader' is a real stretch.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:31
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Sinteres posted:Trump said he was going to murder Assad too. Do you genuinely think he's going to invade or are you pretending to believe him to make a rhetorical point? Obviously if the US begins to posture in a way that suggests intervention, I'll switch firmly into the anti camp, but I don't think it's happening. I genuinely don't know what the odds of a US military intervention in Venezuela are because we can't accurately predict Trump's willingness to act on his desires. But given his extreme hawkishness toward Venezuela, it's completely reasonable to interpret this as an attempt to put us on a war footing and oppose it as a US policy.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:31
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Majorian posted:Except that, again, Trump has repeatedly said that he wants to invade Venezuela. There is very little correlation between Trump saying anything and him actually doing that thing. And whether Trump might do or not do something has no relationship with whether Maduro is legitimate or with the fact that he runs an oppressive dictatorship or with the fact that Guaido is, by the Constitution of Venezuela and the will of the people, the legitimate president. Or with the fact that ordinary Venezuelans are rising up against their oppressors.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:32
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PT6A posted:I really doubt Maduro is quite dumb enough.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:32
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AGGGGH BEES posted:How would a CIA mole in charge of Venezuela be any worse than the government they have now? How would it be any better? That seems to be the missing piece here. Like, we know if a US-backed government takes over, there isn’t gonna be fair elections under them either right? Like, lmao.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:32
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No, see, the wrong people are professing sympathy with the Venezuelan cause, so it's very important that Maduro be supported, because ?????
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Jan 23, 2019 21:32
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PT6A posted:If the US doesn't recognize him as the official leader, can't they tell him to go kick rocks? I mean, obviously it'd be dangerous to a point, but on the other hand I really doubt Maduro is quite dumb enough to attack American diplomats outright. In theory yes, though doing so is such an obviously cynical ploy to get them killed as pretext to invasion that even Maduro and crew might not fall for it.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:32
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THS posted:Trump starting a foreign intervention during a government shutdown while he’s being humiliated over domestic policy would be pretty cool. This, but the opposite. THS posted:I guess if you realize that no one recognizing the “legitimate” leader on Venezuela actually gives a gently caress about any of the following things: That's true, but I don't see how this makes it okay to suddenly jump to Maduro's defence for no reason.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:32
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THS posted:You don’t give a gently caress about the legacy of Hugo Chavez you cretin. Well yeah he was fairly flaky on the whole and didn't bother to build socialism correctly and many missteps of his administration turned to horrible consequences under Maduro's far worse regime. But at least he wasn't an active military dictator starving the whole country, you liberal. Lightning Knight posted:
Say exactly what you mean here because people have been getting extremely sloppy and well, declaring that anything at all happening is "intervention". What is it do you think the Us is doing that shouldn't be done? If it's something not being done, why do you think it's likely to happen? Would you care to describe how anyone could take power with every outside country refusing to recognize them? Also reminder, military dictators generally don't step down of their own accord in the first fuckin place. Feinne posted:We sorta are honestly, they don't have any refining capacity in-country so their oil goes to the Gulf Coast for that. That's why the real nightmare scenario back in the before times of sanity was the US sanctioning the PDVSA, because that would grind the whole loving economy to a halt. Sssh you're not allowed to point out that the US can completely destroy what's left of the VZ economy at any time if it actually wanted to by simply refusing further oil import/export, that would hurt the bone-headed "all the problems are economic warfare  " narrative some people in this thread like to push!
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Jan 23, 2019 21:33
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HisMajestyBOB posted:There is very little correlation between Trump saying anything and him actually doing that thing. And whether Trump might do or not do something has no relationship with whether Maduro is legitimate or with the fact that he runs an oppressive dictatorship or with the fact that Guaido is, by the Constitution of Venezuela and the will of the people, the legitimate president. Or with the fact that ordinary Venezuelans are rising up against their oppressors. None of that means it's at all helpful for Trump, the loathed president of the country that has engaged in a whole hell of a lot of regime change in the region over the centuries, to recognize Guaido as the legitimate leader of the country. Again, if you want the opposition to win this standoff, Trump's endorsement is probably not a helpful thing.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:33
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Freedonkeys posted:Juan Guaido didn't even run for president so calling him a 'democratically elected leader' is a real stretch. Was Gerald Ford?
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Jan 23, 2019 21:34
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AGGGGH BEES posted:How would a CIA mole in charge of Venezuela be any worse than the government they have now? remember when the us took out the Iraqi government and almost lost the whole region to a bunch of theocratic facists which immediatly started speedrunning multiple genocides and starting wars throughout the entire middle east or bombed Libya so hard they got turned into mad max hellstate Or funneled money to a bunch of plucky rebelsnwho turned out to be the taliban
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Jan 23, 2019 21:34
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Majorian posted:None of that means it's at all helpful for Trump, the loathed president of the country that has engaged in a whole hell of a lot of regime change in the region over the centuries, to recognize Guaido as the legitimate leader of the country. Again, if you want the opposition to win this standoff, Trump's endorsement is probably not a helpful thing. the winner of this standoff is going to be whoever isnt shot in the head by the military
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Jan 23, 2019 21:35
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Was this still taken from a video streaming somewhere? I see Diosadado Cabello is calling for a vigil tonight outside Miraflores. I'd like to see more of the pro-government rally.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:35
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Agean90 posted:remember when the us took out the Iraqi government and almost lost the whole region to a bunch of theocratic facists which immediatly started speedrunning multiple genocides and starting wars throughout the entire middle east Yes.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:35
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Majorian posted:None of that means it's at all helpful for Trump, the loathed president of the country that has engaged in a whole hell of a lot of regime change in the region over the centuries, to recognize Guaido as the legitimate leader of the country. Again, if you want the opposition to win this standoff, Trump's endorsement is probably not a helpful thing. Oh this goes without saying, Trump should have kept his fat gently caress mouth shut.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:35
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Freedonkeys posted:Juan Guaido didn't even run for president so calling him a 'democratically elected leader' is a real stretch. fnox posted:It's not that he won the election. It's that the election Maduro used for his re-election is spurious at best. They're basically saying he abandoned his post by refusing to hold free elections, and according to the constitution, in this scenario the President of the National Assembly becomes president and must call for new elections. Juan Guaido is the current President of the National Assembly, three people have held that post before: Henry Ramos Allup, Julio Borges, Omar Barboza.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:35
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https://mobile.twitter.com/STHGibbs...169349851111427 Well, seems like maduro isn’t happy.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:36
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exploded mummy posted:the winner of this standoff is going to be whoever isnt shot in the head by the military Vladimir Padrino López wins no matter what.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:36
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karthun posted:Was Gerald Ford? nope. I really wish the USSR had supported a coup by Nelson Rockefeller.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:36
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THS posted:You don’t give a gently caress about the legacy of Hugo Chavez you cretin. >80% poverty rate is the legacy of Hugo Chavez.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:37
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Apparently some people don't which is why they think the us government having any interest in your election results should be treated as anything other that they eye of sauron forwarning a series of gently caress ups beyond anything any one can expect
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Jan 23, 2019 21:38
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Lightning Knight posted:How would it be any better? That seems to be the missing piece here. Lol you know absolutely nothing about this topic and just showed up here to poo poo on the venegoons because Trump said something about it. You've made it clear from your posts in this thread that you havn't even bothered to look at the Venezuelan constitution or done even the most cursory reading about the current economic and political situation in Venezuela. You are the epitome of an American bourgeoisie left-wing dilettante, utterly incapable of viewing any affair except through a lense relating to the US.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:39
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DoctorStrangelove posted:>80% poverty rate is the legacy of Hugo Chavez. Poverty and extreme poverty dropped radically under Chavez. AGGGGH BEES posted:Lol you know absolutely nothing about this topic and just showed up here to poo poo on the venegoons because Trump said something about it. You've made it clear from your posts in this thread that you havn't even bothered to look at the Venezuelan constitution or done even the most cursory reading about the current economic and political situation in Venezuela. You are the epitome of an American bourgeoisie left-wing dilettante, utterly incapable of viewing any affair except through a lense relating to the US. Can you answer his question, please? How would a CIA mole in charge of Venezuela be any better?
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Jan 23, 2019 21:39
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The US treats South America like its own personal playground and is run by unhinged Republicans so Venezuela is going to get CIA fuckery and, if it escalates into destabilizing violence, military intervention - whether anyone here approves of that or not. The US is a central topic of discussion here because it’s the world spanning imperial hegemon and absolutely will get involved if there’s even the slightest pretext to do so. It always does. And it always makes things worse.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:40
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Agean90 posted:Apparently some people don't which is why they think the us government having any interest in your election results should be treated as anything other that they eye of sauron forwarning a series of gently caress ups beyond anything any one can expect Probably. That still doesn't mean Maduro is anything more than a corrupt strongman or that there is an urgent need to defend the PSUV online.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:40
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Your data ends in 2013 for some strange reason.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:41
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And then it massively surged immediately after he died with no radical change in policies.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:41
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Live stream of Maduro speaking right now: https://www.pscp.tv/w/1BRJjXWPgoWKw
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Jan 23, 2019 21:42
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AGGGGH BEES posted:Lol you know absolutely nothing about this topic and just showed up here to poo poo on the venegoons because Trump said something about it. You've made it clear from your posts in this thread that you havn't even bothered to look at the Venezuelan constitution or done even the most cursory reading about the current economic and political situation in Venezuela. You are the epitome of an American bourgeoisie left-wing dilettante, utterly incapable of viewing any affair except through a lense relating to the US. I mean if “knowing that US intervention almost universally ends badly and that no one should celebrate it” makes me a “bourgeoisie left-wing dilettante” then ok I guess.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:42
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