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Despite the endless whining from tankie retards (some in this very thread, even) about the Venezuelan opposition being backed by the CIA, no one has ever produced even one single shard of evidence that this is the case. The US has largely ignored Venezuela other than passing sanctions on specific members of the PSUV (and arresting some of them periodically in the US when they get caught drug trafficking or laundering money). (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 23, 2019 21:43
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Probably. That still doesn't mean Maduro is anything more than a corrupt strongman or that there is an urgent need to defend the PSUV online. I agree, I keep my mouth shut on Venezuelian domestic politics and rail on how us intervention is bad on general principle, which pretty much everyone on the planet can observe 👍👍👍
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Jan 23, 2019 21:43
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Squalid posted:Was this still taken from a video streaming somewhere? I see Diosadado Cabello is calling for a vigil tonight outside Miraflores. I'd like to see more of the pro-government rally. It was more the assumption that the state media was trying to spin anti-government rallies as pro-government rallies. (or vise versa)
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Jan 23, 2019 21:44
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You don’t have to defend the regime that’s starving thousands just because Trunmp said a mean thing about them! You’re allowed to think both are bad, I promise, it’s fine.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:44
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AGGGGH BEES posted:Despite the endless whining from tankie retards (some in this very thread, even) about the Venezuelan opposition being backed by the CIA, no one has ever produced even one single shard of evidence that this is the case. The US has largely ignored Venezuela other than passing sanctions on specific members of the PSUV (and arresting some of them periodically in the US when they get caught drug trafficking or laundering money). how would I have evidence of clandestine operations and secret money changing hands? All we can do is infer that they were involved in 2002 and historically have been involved in every single other moment of state instability in the past in South America. I don’t need a smoking gun to tell you that US intelligence agencies are providing support against a South American leftwing regime that they hate.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:45
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karthun posted:Your data ends in 2013 for some strange reason. I expect his death that year would be a factor. DoctorStrangelove posted:And then it massively surged immediately after he died with no radical change in policies. The drop in oil prices was a major factor in that. Chavez should have diversified more, but Venezuela's economy overrelied on oil long before he came to power.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:46
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Probably. That still doesn't mean Maduro is anything more than a corrupt strongman or that there is an urgent need to defend the PSUV online. Support of a country in opposition to US imperialism is absolutely necessary. The alternative is to sit silently as a series of sanctions are passed which weaken a country until the point in which a coup or military intervention can be staged which is what has happened to Venezuela over the past few years. This is a cycle that repeats itself and well meaning American liberals go along with it every time.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:46
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Freedonkeys posted:Support of a country in opposition to US imperialism is absolutely necessary. The alternative is to sit silently as a series of sanctions are passed which weaken a country until the point in which a coup or military intervention can be staged which is what has happened to Venezuela over the past few years. This is a cycle that repeats itself and well meaning American liberals go along with it every time. Wait, you think sanctions are what destroyed Venezuela's economy?
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Jan 23, 2019 21:47
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THS posted:The US treats South America like its own personal playground and is run by unhinged Republicans so Venezuela is going to get CIA fuckery and, if it escalates into destabilizing violence, military intervention - whether anyone here approves of that or not. The US is a central topic of discussion here because it’s the world spanning imperial hegemon and absolutely will get involved if there’s even the slightest pretext to do so. It always does. Ask them about libyan slave markets where people are drugged and vivisected for their kidneys.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:48
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Agean90 posted:I agree, I keep my mouth shut on Venezuelian domestic politics and rail on how us intervention is bad on general principle, which pretty much everyone on the planet can observe 👍👍👍 
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Jan 23, 2019 21:48
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Freedonkeys posted:Support of a country in opposition to US imperialism is absolutely necessary. The alternative is to sit silently as a series of sanctions are passed which weaken a country until the point in which a coup or military intervention can be staged which is what has happened to Venezuela over the past few years. This is a cycle that repeats itself and well meaning American liberals go along with it every time. The sanctions on Venezuela have been essentially all targeted at the actual leadership and not the economy of Venezuela, again if the US had an interest in turning Venezuela into a Mad Max hellscape where people are shivving each other for a liter of guzzoline we could have sanctioned the PDVSA at any time.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:49
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Chuck Boone posted:Live stream of Maduro speaking right now: https://www.pscp.tv/w/1BRJjXWPgoWKw Listened to him for a few minutes and he just called Lenín Moreno a "nazi-fascist". He's generally talking about everything *but* the current situtation in Venezuela.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:50
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Majorian posted:I expect his death that year would be a factor. Why would his death be factor on poverty rates?
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Jan 23, 2019 21:52
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karthun posted:Why would his death be factor on poverty rates? It isn't, but it is the reason why the piece entitled, "Venezuelan Economic and Social Performance Under Hugo Chávez, in Graphs," ends with 2013.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:54
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Der Waffle Mous posted:It was more the assumption that the state media was trying to spin anti-government rallies as pro-government rallies. I assumed it was supposed to be a pro-Maduro protest somewhere else in the city? It weird picture though, I admit I'm kind of suspicious it is and old photo from years ago. Chuck Boone posted:Live stream of Maduro speaking right now: https://www.pscp.tv/w/1BRJjXWPgoWKw I guess the speaking in such a small space is a security thing and not that surprising. That crowd doesn't look that confident though, their faces all look creased with concern. I assume there are no big pro-Maduro rallies ongoing anywhere?
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Jan 23, 2019 21:55
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Freedonkeys posted:Support of a country in opposition to US imperialism is absolutely necessary. The alternative is to sit silently as a series of sanctions are passed which weaken a country until the point in which a coup or military intervention can be staged which is what has happened to Venezuela over the past few years. This is a cycle that repeats itself and well meaning American liberals go along with it every time. Aren't the sanctions against venezuela meant to prevent PSUV members from getting to their ill-gotten wealth and to stop companies from purchasing Venezuelan debt? Venezuela is already putting its infrastructure up as collateral and the russians and chinese already own stuff in Venezuela thanks to debt defaults. Russia and china are acting as loan sharks. https://www.state.gov/e/eb/tfs/spi/venezuela/ This is all the sanctions against Venezuela.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:55
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Majorian posted:It isn't, but it is the reason why the piece entitled, "Venezuelan Economic and Social Performance Under Hugo Chávez, in Graphs," ends with 2013. And why did you pick this specific article with data that ended in 2013? Is it because you don't think that Maduro is part of Chavez's legacy? karthun fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Jan 23, 2019 |
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Jan 23, 2019 21:56
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Majorian posted:I expect his death that year would be a factor. Oil production was declining throughout Chavez's career. Also other oil dependent economies were able to survive the same shock to the oil markets. Oil prices have recovered from the 2014 shocks but the Venezuelan economy has only worsened.
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Jan 23, 2019 21:57
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See the problem Venezuelan posters in this thread have with most international leftists is that they have done absolutely loving nothing but complain about any possible attempt to alleviate our situation despite repeated cries for help. We’re having to rely on Trump of all loving people to get anything done, because nobody on the left wants to help. I don’t know what else are you expecting us civilians to do against a military dictatorship. And for the record, to clarify my political posture in terms of Latin American affairs: I hate Bolsonaro, I hate Trump, I don’t like any Latin American president, matter of fact I don’t like strong presidencies, I like parliamentary democracies such as the one in Sweden. Venezuela has had 40 years of corrupt fuckers running it, none of them are reedemable, it’s just that Maduro has had the audacity of stealing the most out of all of them while somehow convincing a whole load of people he cares for the poor. I am not convinced that Juan Guaido is going to solve everything, and ultimately I don’t give a gently caress if the US is planting him or not; all I want is for this suffering to end, so that someday I may return to my country, and all I have for certain is that so long as Maduro remains in power, that will never happen.
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Jan 23, 2019 22:01
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fnox posted:And for the record, to clarify my political posture in terms of Latin American affairs: I hate Bolsonaro, I hate Trump, I don’t like any Latin American president, matter of fact I don’t like strong presidencies, I like parliamentary democracies such as the one in Sweden. Venezuela has had 40 years of corrupt fuckers running it, none of them are reedemable, it’s just that Maduro has had the audacity of stealing the most out of all of them while somehow convincing a whole load of people he cares for the poor. fnox posted:
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Jan 23, 2019 22:03
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fnox posted:See the problem Venezuelan posters in this thread have with most international leftists is that they have done absolutely loving nothing but complain about any possible attempt to alleviate our situation despite repeated cries for help. How, exactly, are we supposed to help? It seems to me that the best thing we can do is oppose the U.S. making the situation worse, because I guarantee you, our government will not make it better.
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Jan 23, 2019 22:05
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THS posted:In the current environment of right-wing governments surrounding Venezuela and the Trump administration backing this, you’re an absolute fool if you believe this won’t be a regression to the reactionary oligarchs who are far, far worse than Maduro. People are starving in Venezuela. If a rightwing government puts food on the table, through whatever means, then it will be better than Maduro. You are seriously underestimating what a high benchmark you are setting with the phrase, "worse than Maduro". People would rather not they and their children starve, above all other considerations.
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Jan 23, 2019 22:06
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Christ some of you people are wild. It is perfectly possible to both hate Trump and hope that the people of Venezuela stop loving starving to death and dying from the lack of basic medical supplies. You ask me, anybody who can do at least those two things right there is already a far better leader than Maduro or his thieving compatriots.
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Jan 23, 2019 22:07
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Majorian posted:How, exactly, are we supposed to help? It seems to me that the best thing we can do is oppose the U.S. making the situation worse, because I guarantee you, our government will not make it better. By zipping it and letting us take our chances with whoever the gently caress else isn’t Maduro. You think we’re too stupid to decide for ourselves.
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Jan 23, 2019 22:09
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Mukip posted:People are starving in Venezuela. If a rightwing government puts food on the table, through whatever means, then it will be better than Maduro. You are seriously underestimating what a high benchmark you are setting with the phrase, "worse than Maduro". People would rather not they and their children starve, above all other considerations. This was the same rationale used by the west against people like ceaucescu, all it did was wipe away one old and doddering idiot and replace him with gangsters and sharks. The people in romania kept on starving and it became one of the poorest countries in the world. Repeat with Libya, repeat with Iraq, and so on. CAPS LOCK BROKEN fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Jan 23, 2019 |
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Jan 23, 2019 22:10
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I bet a lot of Iraqi expats were saying anything is better than Saddam.
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Jan 23, 2019 22:12
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One reason that chavez is blamed for the current crisis is what he has done to Venezuela's oil industry that has set it up for ruin. Venezuelan oil is VERY heavy and expensive to make and needs a ton of reinvested profits to sustain production via drilling new holes and such, and then there is is needed expertise to refine the oil. After the 2003 strike where workers with heavy oil expertise were fired, forcing Venezuela to use US refineries that could process the oil into a useable form. The other thing is from 2007 onward, chavez took a ton of the oil profits that were meant be used to drill new holes for more oil and used it for his social programs. Analysts back in 2007 were saying this has a horrid idea. http://www.energytrendsinsider.com/2007/03/22/what-planet-are-they-from/ Wells have been drying up for a while now, and the steep decline in production is hurting Venezuela even more. Normally this would be constantly counteracted by drilling for new wells, but... Pharohman777 fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Jan 23, 2019 |
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Jan 23, 2019 22:12
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fnox posted:By zipping it and letting us take our chances with whoever the gently caress else isn’t Maduro. You think we’re too stupid to decide for ourselves. No one here is keeping you from going out and protesting. What we're saying is that the U.S. shouldn't intervene, and that we shouldn't assume that Maduro will be replaced by someone better. karthun posted:And why did you pick this specific article with data that ended in 2013? Is it because you don't think that Maduro is part of Chavez's legacy? I picked it because it was the first thing that popped up when I Googled "hugo chavez poverty." Whether or not I think Maduro is part of Chavez's legacy, it's pretty clear that most Venezuelans remember Chavez relatively fondly. As of 2017, 79% of Venezuelans viewed him as the best president in their country's history, according to an independent think tank. To me, that suggests that most Venezuelans don't view Maduro as an integral part of Chavez's legacy.
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Jan 23, 2019 22:13
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It’s funny how it’s always the gringos that come here shrieking to us about intervention and Chile like that’s the only other alternative No wait I don’t think funny was the word I was looking for. Idiotic? Jingoistic? NeoImperialist? All of before I think
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Jan 23, 2019 22:13
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:This was the same rationale used by the west against people like ceaucescu, all it did was wipe away one old and doddering idiot and replace him with gangsters and sharks. The people on romania kept on starving and it became one of the poorest countries in the world. Repeat with Libya, repeat with Iraq, and so on. Romania has a HDI of 0.811 and the National Anticorruption Directorate is held as a model of anti-corruption agencies in the EU.
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Jan 23, 2019 22:15
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Furia posted:It’s funny how it’s always the gringos that come here shrieking to us about intervention and Chile like that’s the only other alternative yes, look on the bright side, there's also Iran, where US meddling ushered in a theocracy can't wait for "the christian republic of venezuela"
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Jan 23, 2019 22:16
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Whole lotta narcissistic US posters in this thread.
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Jan 23, 2019 22:16
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Furia posted:It’s funny how it’s always the gringos that come here shrieking to us about intervention and Chile like that’s the only other alternative Yeah sorry y'all you know the rules. Ain't nobody really human except for a small subset of the white American male population.
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Jan 23, 2019 22:17
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Majorian posted:No one here is keeping you from going out and protesting. What we're saying is that the U.S. shouldn't intervene, and that we shouldn't assume that Maduro will be replaced by someone better. I'm not asking what you think the Venezuelans think, I'm asking what YOU think about Chavez's legacy and do you think that Maduro is part of it? You can say no.
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Jan 23, 2019 22:17
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Norton the First posted:Whole lotta narcissistic US posters in this thread. They suffer from whitesaviorisis, poor things.
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Jan 23, 2019 22:18
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karthun posted:I'm not asking what you think the Venezuelans think, I'm asking what YOU think about Chavez's legacy and do you think that Maduro is part of it? You can say no. Maduro's part of his legacy to some degree, but it's misleading to just outright say, "Maduro is part of Chavez's legacy." You have to contextualize it more than that. Maduro has hardly just been a posthumous cipher for Chavez's zombie-brain.
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Jan 23, 2019 22:18
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Majorian posted:No one here is keeping you from going out and protesting. What we're saying is that the U.S. shouldn't intervene, and that we shouldn't assume that Maduro will be replaced by someone better. That second part of your post just shows that you have zero, and I mean zero understanding of the situation, as Maduro is absolutely part of Chavez legacy to the point of running originally as “Chavez’ son” but anyway. The problem here is that you don’t possibly understand how bad things are. Whatever you think may happen with a right wing government is already occurring, seriously, just take one loving look at the country and you can see that really the worst we can get is just more of the same. And again, unless you have something to propose as a of solution to the crisis, just step aside, you’re in the way of the only people doing anything.
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Jan 23, 2019 22:19
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It is impossible to point out Maduro is a rich wing dictator and reject US intervention. This is a science fact that this two positions are intrinsically linked e: tried to quote self, hosed up original post. Full version next page Furia fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Jan 24, 2019 |
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Jan 23, 2019 22:19
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Really was not expecting to hear Ceaucescu apologia today.
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Jan 23, 2019 22:19
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karthun posted:Romania has a HDI of 0.811 and the National Anticorruption Directorate is held as a model of anti-corruption agencies in the EU. quote:Romania ranks 102 out of 137 countries in the quality of transport infrastructure. Hamstrung by poor planning and weak public administration, Romania is the only EU country that was not able to use the flood of structural funds it has received since accession. Romania received 15.4 billion euros during the period 2007-2013, and another 17.6 billion euros during 2014-2020, for investment in infrastructure. For a country with a GDP that averaged 140 euros billion between 2007 and 2017, 33 billion euros is certainly not insignificant. It should have been better utilized. This isn't a thread about romania, but its clear that Americans are addicted to WWII-style subversion of governments they find undesirable, with disastrous results. As I have said probably dozens of times in this thread, the habit is to apologize for all the dirty poo poo done to latin america while pretending like the current destabilization isn't an intervention in the same mold.
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Jan 23, 2019 22:19
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