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Furia posted:*immediately starts demanding people do what he loving says, does not care about the actual content and grievances of Venezuelans* I do, which is why I oppose coups and forced regime changes. This isn't complicated.
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Jan 24, 2019 10:57
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Furia posted:That that’s what you read from that is really telling about what you are I love how he goes "the US doesn't care about Venezuelans!" While not caring about Venezuelans himself. I'm not 8 years old. Literally no Venezuelan in the right mind yearns for an intervention. What we want is for our country mates and our family to maybe get to a point in which eating isn't a coin toss between "picking up mangoes from the tree again" and "I got a liter of milk and my neighbor traded me some flour". I hate the fact that we will very likely have to jump in bed with Trump, Bolsonaro and friends. The praise to them from Venezuelans in social networks disgusts me and makes me sad. But any help is welcomed, no matter the interests behind it, because we are loving starving.
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Jan 24, 2019 10:58
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Hugoon Chavez posted:I hate the fact that we will very likely have to jump in bed with Trump, Bolsonaro and friends. The praise to them from Venezuelans in social networks disgusts me and makes me sad. But any help is welcomed, no matter the interests behind it, because we are loving starving. And just what do you think Trump is effectively going to do about the famine in Venezuela? You do know he thinks Venezuelans and Mexicans are the same thing, right? (Hint: he's racist)
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Jan 24, 2019 11:01
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Slutitution posted:I do, which is why I oppose coups and forced regime changes. This isn't complicated. Oh, congratulations! You achieved the bare minimum! Have a cookie At least you are not misprepresenting your jerk off fantasy as our position I guess
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Jan 24, 2019 11:01
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The thread exploded because yesterday morning US media decided the president of Venezuela was some guy nobody ever heard of before who is not supported by anyone anybody can get ahold of and that US diplomats will die in Venezuela two days from now unless that rear end in a top hat decides they should leave, and if you oppose US intervention half as much as you claim you need to be very, very excited about current events yesterday.
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Jan 24, 2019 11:02
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Hugoon Chavez posted:This bring backs memories, I got fed by Fe y Alegría a couple of times, and also got some free school supplies from them. I'm not a fan of religious groups but they do a decent job. I've donated to them before, until I had to just send that money to my mother instead. CERF sent a aid package 3 months ago.it may or may not have ended in a public official bank account.
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Jan 24, 2019 11:04
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Donald Trump is literally locking up Mexican children in cages away from their parents (some are dying in there). Seriously, I'd love to hear why anyone thinks he gives a gently caress about people starving to death in Venezuela. IIRC, Mattis literally had to explain to him why invading Venezuela would be a catastrophe.
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Jan 24, 2019 11:05
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Willie Tomg posted:The thread exploded because yesterday morning US media decided the president of Venezuela was some guy nobody ever heard of before who is not supported by anyone anybody can get ahold of and that US diplomats will die in Venezuela two days from now unless that rear end in a top hat decides they should leave, and if you oppose US intervention half as much as you claim you need to be very, very excited about current events yesterday. I thought he was chosen by the congress that became powerless as soon as the opposition won the vote.
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Jan 24, 2019 11:05
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There is, of course, the wildcard option that the reality TV star Donald James Trump will just let the cards fall where they may regarding the extraction of US diplomatic staff. This is a serious and earnest sentence describing a state of affairs in 2019.
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Jan 24, 2019 11:05
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Anytime foreign aid makes it to the country, it's stolen by the government immediately upon arrival, and appears for sale the next day at Cucuta, where it will sold in pesos, which will be exchanged for the massively inflated bolívar, and the cycle will repeat. Fuckers even bachaquear critical life saving medicines, since they know nothing of the sort can be found anywhere inside the country, despite knowing that the people who depend on those medicines will die.
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Jan 24, 2019 11:06
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PBJ posted:Anytime foreign aid makes it to the country, it's stolen by the government immediately upon arrival, and appears for sale the next day at Cucuta, where it will sold in pesos, which will be exchanged for the massively inflated bolívar, and the cycle will repeat.
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Jan 24, 2019 11:09
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drilldo squirt posted:I thought he was chosen by the congress that became powerless as soon as the opposition won the vote. That powerless congress apparently has access to US media that hollywood agencies would positively do murders for. And its Oscar season!
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Jan 24, 2019 11:14
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Apologies for the Facebook link but I'm phone posting and can't rehost the images easily, stuff relating to the aircraft that flew in from Moscow noted earlier in the thread-turns out it's a Turkish-registered G5. https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1967099100076154&id=315080478611366 Willie Tomg posted:The thread exploded because yesterday morning US media decided the president of Venezuela was some guy nobody ever heard of before who is not supported by anyone anybody can get ahold of and that US diplomats will die in Venezuela two days from now unless that rear end in a top hat decides they should leave, and if you oppose US intervention half as much as you claim you need to be very, very excited about current events yesterday. Someone have that image of countries recognizing "the guy nobody's ever heard of?" Plastic_Gargoyle fucked around with this message at 11:19 on Jan 24, 2019 |
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Jan 24, 2019 11:16
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Apologies for the Facebook link but I'm phone posting and can't rehost the images easily, stuff relating to the aircraft that flew in from Moscow noted earlier in the thread-turns out it's a Turkish-registered G5. At the rate russia is snapping up Venezuelan assets thats the new president.
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Jan 24, 2019 11:17
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Willie Tomg posted:The thread exploded because yesterday morning US media decided the president of Venezuela was some guy nobody ever heard of before who is not supported by anyone anybody can get ahold of and that US diplomats will die in Venezuela two days from now unless that rear end in a top hat decides they should leave, and if you oppose US intervention half as much as you claim you need to be very, very excited about current events yesterday. I don’t need you to whitesplain my country to me I know that Trump is trying to swing his tiny dick as usual, and I know that if he succeeds it’ll be bad for my country. Other news in the same vein: rain remains wet, updates pending Of course military intervention is loving bad, but pretending that organic protests in low income neighbourhoods are cia psyops is jingoistic at best and blatant loving apologia at worst
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Jan 24, 2019 11:30
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Do the PCDC have any weight?whats their role in this?the GUE/NGL seem to think they might be the least bad out of all the options.
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Jan 24, 2019 11:33
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Apologies for the Facebook link but I'm phone posting and can't rehost the images easily, stuff relating to the aircraft that flew in from Moscow noted earlier in the thread-turns out it's a Turkish-registered G5. For regional support, there's: Supporting Guaido: Argentina, Chile, Paraguay, Brazil, Peru, Ecuador, Colombia, Panama, Costa Rica, Honduras, Guatemala, USA, Canada Supporting Maduro: Mexico, Bolivia, Cuba "Supporting calm" (but not either faction): Uruguay [possibly others] No public statement as far as I can tell: Nicaragua (surprisingly), El Salvador, Belize, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Guyana, Suriname, and all those Caribbean microstates Is there any news about where Guaido is? Is he rotting in a SEBIN jail or is he just under their watch as they try to figure out a way to plant an AK-47 and grenades in his car and paint him as a terrorist leader? VVVV: Please stop talking about the god drat US, this is the Venezuela thread. Saladman fucked around with this message at 11:41 on Jan 24, 2019 |
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Jan 24, 2019 11:33
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Someone have that image of countries recognizing "the guy nobody's ever heard of?" US clients, EU fencesitters recognizing neither for the time being in order to remain neutral regarding an obvious shitshow, and then nations extracting some concession or other for external reasons like Turkey or Mexico. That it's so perfect is the point. Furia posted:I don’t need you to whitesplain my country to me im not whitesplaining venezuela to you, i'm explaining the usa to you. This is not difficult. Again, you only have 30 more years of this to look forward to. Maybe 40 with your attitude. Jeez. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 24, 2019 11:37
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Willie Tomg posted:US clients, EU fencesitters recognizing neither for the time being in order to remain neutral regarding an obvious shitshow, and then nations extracting some concession or other for external reasons like Turkey or Mexico. That it's so perfect is the point. You literally are, you huge moron.
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Jan 24, 2019 11:43
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Willie Tomg posted:im not whitesplaining venezuela to you, i'm explaining the usa to you. This is not difficult. “I’m not whitsplaining. I’m just explaining things to you while being a white gringo in the most condescending way possible” Maybe the Venezuela thread is not the right place for you to explain to me or anybody about the US? Just a thought. At least you own up to the fact that you are the kind of shitlord that imposes himself for
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Jan 24, 2019 11:44
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Willie Tomg posted:US clients, EU fencesitters recognizing neither for the time being in order to remain neutral regarding an obvious shitshow, and then nations extracting some concession or other for external reasons like Turkey or Mexico. That it's so perfect is the point. I feel like I'm probably on whatever loving "side" of this weird argument it is you're on, but I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to accomplish with this schtick dude.
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Jan 24, 2019 11:46
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Slutitution posted:And just what do you think Trump is effectively going to do about the famine in Venezuela? What could very well happen is that a right-wing government stabilizes the situation and improves the living conditions of the vast majority of Venezuelans, while simultaneously restoring earlier levels of inequality and class strata. This right-wing government would then enjoy popular support for a long time, even among people who are its class enemies (the poor), which it can use to destroy all the gains of the previous left-wing government and slowly worsen the conditions for the working class. It would be very comforting to believe that the right has no path to remaining and even increasing its hold on power democratically after gaining it, but they do.
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Jan 24, 2019 11:54
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fnox posted:You want to do something for Venezuelans right now? Do you want to show that you actually care? Donate to Caritas, yes, it's ran by the Catholic church but put that aside for just a second, it's the only reputable charity that is reliably getting help to Venezuelans right now. Call me whatever the gently caress you want, but please, if you're going to act like you care, put your money where your mouth is, there's a lot that these people can do with just 5 dollars. Hope this does some good. Solidarity. 
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Jan 24, 2019 11:56
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So besides all the posturing what's actually happening in Caracas? The last piece of news was of the army unit rebelling, being arrested by loyalist forces while also sparking off huge protests. This was followed by Guaido declaring he was president and Maduro responding in his typically bizarre fashion. If Guaido had successfully pulled off the coup (or legitimate transfer of power depending in your perspective/definition), would that not have already happened by now? Have loyalist forces shut the whole thing down?
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Jan 24, 2019 12:03
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I'm yet another western idiot wandering into the thread, but a question to the Venezuelans here, as I have genuine curiousity. What's the *good outcome you're hoping for, aside from understandable basic needs. Is there any hope the country can end up anything than starving under Maduro or asset grabbed by the west? *I understand good is relative here :/
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Jan 24, 2019 12:10
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Pedro De Heredia posted:What could very well happen is that a right-wing government stabilizes the situation and improves the living conditions of the vast majority of Venezuelans, while simultaneously restoring earlier levels of inequality and class strata. This right-wing government would then enjoy popular support for a long time, even among people who are its class enemies (the poor), which it can use to destroy all the gains of the previous left-wing government and slowly worsen the conditions for the working class. This is plausible enough but I'm not understanding the process by which this hypothetical government would come into power democratically.
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Jan 24, 2019 12:11
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Spuckuk posted:I'm yet another western idiot wandering into the thread, but a question to the Venezuelans here, as I have genuine curiousity. It’s already thoroughly been asset grabbed thanks to Maduro and co. That ship sailed a long, long time ago. Just look at the bullshit Maduro got up to with Rofsnet and GS like 2 years ago at most Revitalizing democracy and education would be what I want the most, but I don’t know how it could be done. Not only am I not a politician, I just don’t see where the money is gonna come from, or if it even should be spent on that first and foremost. Everything you can think of has been thoroughly looted and hosed so it’s hard to pick what happens first
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Jan 24, 2019 12:14
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Lightningproof posted:I really don't mean to sound like a shithead, but is no one even the slightest bit suspicious of all this, though? It really does feel like some documents are gonna get declassified in 50 years and we'll all go "whoops, guess it was a US-orchestrated coup like all those other times after all". Especially in the context of the more general rollback of the Pink Tide. Not really, man. There's a huge difference between "The U.S. is betting on a horse in this race" and "the U.S. orchestrated this". The U.S. definitely hates Maduro and wants him gone, but that doesn't mean Trump woke up yesterday and pressed the "Launch Coup" button. I'm not accusing you of doing this, but I notice that a lot of the people who bend towards these kinds of theories are just ignorant about the situation in the country. They maybe haven't been keeping up with developments in Venezuela over the past five years or so, and so suddenly they're seeing this happen and they're thinking, "Woah, this all happened so quickly! Something's gotta be up for sure". Another example of this is I noticed from quickly skimming the thread someone referring to Guaido as "an empty suit that no one's heard of before". Guaido's been active in politics since 2007, was a founding member of the Voluntad Popular party which is a big opposition party, and he's been a member of parliament since 2010... Venezuelans have resisted Maduro's rule since the election of April 14 2013 (which was highly controversial; he won with a 1.5% vote difference, a margin of like 200,000 votes). Aside from the politics of everyday resistance, Venezuelans organized and fought through two months-long protests wave, one in 2014 and one in 2017. And that's just the resistance to Maduro, never mind to Chavez. Someone will read this and say, "drat! The U.S. has been orchestrating this since the first day Maduro got elected!' If you do, I don't know what else I can tell you. Spuckuk posted:I'm yet another western idiot wandering into the thread, but a question to the Venezuelans here, as I have genuine curiousity. It's possible that the PSUV will push Maduro out and as some kind of compromise appoint someone like a chavista-light as president. This would appease people temporarily, at least until a new election (which would really have to be free and transparent), at which point we'd see if chavismo dies with Maduro, or if it's just Madurismo that people have a problem with. I suspect that it's the latter. The reason why I'm not optimistic that this is a solution is because the problem isn't just Maduro. The problem is a corrupt elite that has been working tirelessly over the last 20 years to enrich itself at the expense of the people of Venezuela. It's not just Maduro that has to go. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 12:48 on Jan 24, 2019 |
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Jan 24, 2019 12:40
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Chuck Boone posted:
Hey I freely admit I don't know loving anything. I just have a brain screaming "Allende" whenever the US does anything in LatAm.
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Jan 24, 2019 12:58
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Homeless Friend posted:This is plausible enough but I'm not understanding the process by which this hypothetical government would come into power democratically. When the current government collapses (which seems like the most likely way it'll leave power, rather than democratically), it will be hard to justify not having elections.
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Jan 24, 2019 13:05
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Lightningproof posted:Hey I freely admit I don't know loving anything. I just have a brain screaming "Allende" whenever the US does anything in LatAm. Lurk more before posting something like that, then, although you at least led with a big caveat. It's crazy the number of self-declared leftist keyboard freedom fighters who come posting in this thread once every year when VZ makes the front page of the Washington Post who then infantilize Venezuelans (and Latin Americans more generally) by declaring that obviously nothing ever happens in their country unless the CIA is doing it, is both wrong and ironically also quite racist for people that seemingly think they are bastions of "anti-imperialist anti-neocolonialist" thought.
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Jan 24, 2019 13:06
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Flayer posted:If Guaido had successfully pulled off the coup (or legitimate transfer of power depending in your perspective/definition), would that not have already happened by now? Have loyalist forces shut the whole thing down? This coup is a bit of a joke.
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Jan 24, 2019 13:07
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Lightningproof posted:Hey I freely admit I don't know loving anything. I just have a brain screaming "Allende" whenever the US does anything in LatAm. I don't blame you. I fully acknowledge and understand that the U.S. has a long and proud history of pushing for coups and generally loving things up in Latin America. I think that one of the unfortunate side effects of this is what we're seeing with some observers regarding Venezuela today. That history is used as an excuse to strip agency from millions of people, to paint them all with the same brush, and to stifle what I argue in this case is a real, local, home-grown desire for political change. Flayer posted:So besides all the posturing what's actually happening in Caracas? The last piece of news was of the army unit rebelling, being arrested by loyalist forces while also sparking off huge protests. This was followed by Guaido declaring he was president and Maduro responding in his typically bizarre fashion. There was some really heavy fighting in Caracas last night, particularly in the Petare area, between residents and security forces. I'm not seeing updated fatality figures, but the ranges since January 22 are between 14-18 dead. I think that if the military or parts of it was waiting to turn, we would have already seen it happen. Having said that, I think that we're still in the early stages of this thing so there could be sudden changes.
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Jan 24, 2019 13:08
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Would Venezuelans agree to a deal where the US gets all their oil in exchange for guaranteeing plenty of food, water, medical supplies, and housing are provided for all Venezuelans?
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Jan 24, 2019 13:10
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Saladman posted:It's crazy the number of self-declared leftist keyboard freedom fighters who come posting in this thread once every year when VZ makes the front page of the Washington Post who then infantilize Venezuelans (and Latin Americans more generally) by declaring that obviously nothing ever happens in their country unless the CIA is doing it, is both wrong and ironically also quite racist for people that seemingly think they are bastions of "anti-imperialist anti-neocolonialist" thought. American Exceptionalism is a hell of a drug?  Like, seriously, this and the general naivete of the American left (whatever-the-gently caress that means) on foreign policy matters is the left expression of what manifests as  on the right.E: qkkl posted:Would Venezuelans agree to a deal where the US gets all their oil in exchange for guaranteeing plenty of food, water, medical supplies, and housing are provided for all Venezuelans? I mean, it worked for (white) Alaskans? 
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Jan 24, 2019 13:10
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qkkl posted:Would Venezuelans agree to a deal where the US gets all their oil in exchange for guaranteeing plenty of food, water, medical supplies, and housing are provided for all Venezuelans? Full transfer of ownership of every oil field in the country to the United States in exchange for a utopia where everyone's basic necessities are met and fully paid for? Maybe. Hell, I think I'd take that if the U.S. offered it to Canada. I don't think that's a realistic possibility, though. Venezuela doesn't control all of its oil fields, anyway. A lot of them were pawned to Russia and China.
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Jan 24, 2019 13:13
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qkkl posted:Would Venezuelans agree to a deal where the US gets all their oil in exchange for guaranteeing plenty of food, water, medical supplies, and housing are provided for all Venezuelans? gently caress no. We’re not going to take the leash from Maduro just to hand it over to some other rear end in a top hat
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Jan 24, 2019 13:17
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Goddamnit, why didn't I suggest "Venezuela: Tankies to the left of me, fascists to the right, stuck in the middle with coup"? E: or "fascists to my right"? At the end, all we really have is our regrets... Schadenboner fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Jan 24, 2019 |
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Jan 24, 2019 13:18
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Lightningproof posted:Hey I freely admit I don't know loving anything. I just have a brain screaming "Allende" whenever the US does anything in LatAm. This is why I think it's a mistake for Trump to come out and immediately recognize Guaido. Even if Trump's motives are 100% pure (hah) he's just not a popular guy there as far as I know, and the people who need to be convinced to restart the electoral process in Venezuela are not going to see the US as a benevolent actor. Maybe my reading of the situation is totally wrong though, I'm certainly not an expert, and the situation sounds desperate enough that maybe any support is helpful at this point
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Jan 24, 2019 13:25
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Lightningproof posted:I don't know poo poo about gently caress but surely no one ITT is suggesting US President Donald J. Trump is going to make things better, are they? At best, you could say that Maduro has hosed over the Venezuelan people and infrastructure with such breathtaking greed and idiocy that US involvement could scarcely find ways to make things worse at this point. And given how well US involvement would turn out, that's quite a furious indictment of the gross horror that Maduro is. Venezuela is thoroughly hosed in a way which leaves nations in a pit for decades. "set back economy" hardly covers it.
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