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Cross posting from C-Spam, but if anyone comes back here asking for evidence that elections in Venezuela are fraudulent you can show them this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HI3KDq67YIc I pulled it from Chuck's post history unsurprisingly. It's a Maduro minister blatantly palming a ballot in 2017 so he can give it to another voter who will use it and then turn over their own blank ballot as proof of voting the way they were supposed to. Unsurprisingly, the video was dismissed as a joke in C-Spam.
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Jan 25, 2019 01:45
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:There are several in fact, and if you though the discussion in this thread was bad ohh boy you don't want to see the fights going on between the soc dems,the communists and the socialists. I suspect most of the non Venezuelans in this thread and quite probably some of the Venezuelans are socdems or socialists.
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Jan 25, 2019 01:49
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I suspect most of the non Venezuelans in this thread and quite probably some of the Venezuelans are socdems or socialists. I'd consider myself a socialist but thankfully I ain't stupid enough to confuse a kleptocratic military dictatorship as being socialist.
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Jan 25, 2019 01:52
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Squalid posted:Cross posting from C-Spam, but if anyone comes back here asking for evidence that elections in Venezuela are fraudulent you can show them this video Loooolll, cmon now son. Did all ministers did this live on camera or was just this one do you think?
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Jan 25, 2019 01:54
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Giggle Goose posted:I'd consider myself a socialist but thankfully I ain't stupid enough to confuse a kleptocratic military dictatorship as being socialist. part of why I hate Maduro (and the PSUV in general) is that he's giving socialism a bad name and destroying what could have been a successful socialist country
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Jan 25, 2019 01:55
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:Loooolll, cmon now son. That even one did it, and on state television too, is just so drat lazy. They aren't even trying anymore.
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Jan 25, 2019 02:01
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:The government literally bans communists from running for offie. The US government doesn't. I think the only democracy that does is Germany.
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Jan 25, 2019 02:02
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Silver2195 posted:The US government doesn't. I think the only democracy that does is Germany. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Control_Act_of_1954
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Jan 25, 2019 02:04
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GreyjoyBastard posted:part of why I hate Maduro (and the PSUV in general) is that he's giving socialism a bad name and destroying what could have been a successful socialist country Chances of that happening where low after 2002, and basically none after Chavez death.socialist countries failing after their main figures die or retire is a disturbing tendency that i don't think many socialists really grapple and acknowledge.i mean the only one that did it off the top of my head is Cuba and that has a bunch of asterisks next to it.
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Jan 25, 2019 02:06
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Maybe you should read that article? quote:Only a few court cases interpreted the scope of the act's termination of the party's "rights, privileges and immunities." In 1954, the New Jersey Supreme Court held that, under the act, a candidate who was not a nominee of the party could not appear on the ballot in a state election under the party label (Salwen v. Rees). The Supreme Court upheld the judgement of the New Jersey Superior Court in favor of the defendant-election official and adopted the Superior Court judge's oral opinion as its own. That opinion explained that the plaintiff-candidate was proclaiming that he was the candidate of the Communist Party and that a vote for him was a vote for "party enthronement." "In order to make good the outlawry of the Communist Party as such," the Superior Court judge stated, "it becomes unavoidable that individuals be prevented from carrying its banner." This "peculiar method, as chosen by the [plaintiff-candidate], is a keen way of circumventing the statute, because if it were valid for him to take the course that he has chosen, it would be valid for a complete set of candidates to do the same thing, the consequence of which, of course, would be to frustrate completely the design of federal law."
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Jan 25, 2019 02:09
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Squalid posted:That even one did it, and on state television too, is just so drat lazy. They aren't even trying anymore. Dude, seriously.im not trying to harsh your vibe or anything but thats definitly a thing that happened for television.he had already put a ballot in before.theres enough stuff to beat them over the head than this dumb thing that only makes you look bad for posting it.
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Jan 25, 2019 02:10
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:There are several in fact, and if you though the discussion in this thread was bad ohh boy you don't want to see the fights going on between the soc dems,the communists and the socialists. Here's an entree.
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Jan 25, 2019 02:11
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Wait, that's a dead letter law since the 70's. You just ... cited your own argument out of existence?
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Jan 25, 2019 02:15
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I think that today was relatively quiet, although I wasn't able to spend as much time looking at this as I did yesterday. I think one of the biggest news was the US announcing that it was pulling all non-essential staff out of the country. It's going to be interesting to see what happens if Maduro decides to make good on his promise to kick *all* US staff out, and the U.S. refuses to abide. It kind of feels like everyone was just waiting to see what might happen today. Squalid posted:Cross posting from C-Spam, but if anyone comes back here asking for evidence that elections in Venezuela are fraudulent you can show them this video Oh yeah that's a really good one  I'd forgotten about it. If I remember correctly someone explained how that scam works... I think that the person fills in the ballot for Maduro, sneaks it (in this case, live on television!) out of the voting centre, and gives it to someone going in to vote. That way, the person who's going in to vote is guaranteed to vote for Maduro, and the cycle repeats.When you combine that with the fact that there's evidence that PSUV staff were buying votes with bags of food during the municipal elections last year, that sort of fraud makes more sense. Antifa Poltergeist posted:Dude, seriously.im not trying to harsh your vibe or anything but thats definitly a thing that happened for television.he had already put a ballot in before.theres enough stuff to beat them over the head than this dumb thing that only makes you look bad for posting it. What makes you so sure of this? After "voting" the electoral staff find his name in the voter roll, check it, and then he stamps his fingerprint on the paper and signs it to stop him from voting again. You can see that clearly in the video. Was that a prop voter roll? Seems like a lot of effort to stage all this for what purpose, exactly?
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Jan 25, 2019 02:17
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:Dude, seriously.im not trying to harsh your vibe or anything but thats definitly a thing that happened for television.he had already put a ballot in before.theres enough stuff to beat them over the head than this dumb thing that only makes you look bad for posting it. 'm not sure I understand you. You are saying he faked voting because he had already voted previously, and was recreating his vote for the cameras? That seems like an even less plausible explanation than fraud, if he was doing it all for the cameras he might at least have been motivated enough to actually conceal the ballot and make it look realistic. Look at how the Venezuelans in the comments are interpreting the video. They recognize what he was doing.
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Jan 25, 2019 02:18
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Pretty sure the elections were rigged in a much more comprehensive way than a minister doing a dodgy vote. If that is the extent of the cheating in the election then Maduro is a lot more popular than I thought.
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Jan 25, 2019 02:25
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Flayer posted:Pretty sure the elections were rigged in a much more comprehensive way than a minister doing a dodgy vote. If that is the extent of the cheating in the election then Maduro is a lot more popular than I thought. yeah this like, given the PSUV I wouldn't be surprised if a loving minister personally committed fraud just to add one more vote, but I feel like focusing on the video, while funny, is missing the garbage forest for the garbage trees banning and imprisoning candidates did a lot of the work
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Jan 25, 2019 02:28
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Kavros posted:Wait, that's a dead letter law since the 70's. You just ... cited your own argument out of existence? He's clearly an anti revolutionary infiltrator.
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Jan 25, 2019 02:29
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Flayer posted:Pretty sure the elections were rigged in a much more comprehensive way than a minister doing a dodgy vote. If that is the extent of the cheating in the election then Maduro is a lot more popular than I thought. The idea here is that it wasn't just the minister doing this. Plus, yeah, the election was decided before it happened (through the banning of opposition parties and candidates, for example).
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Jan 25, 2019 02:31
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Flayer posted:Pretty sure the elections were rigged in a much more comprehensive way than a minister doing a dodgy vote. If that is the extent of the cheating in the election then Maduro is a lot more popular than I thought. Elections are rigged in lots of ways, this is just one particularly blatant example. State employees are routinely threatened into voting at the threat of their jobs, and schemes like this are how the PSUV makes sure they vote the right way. Bribes, threats, lies and fraud are all employed to varying extents to manipulate vote tallies, while large parties may be banned and popular politicians imprisoned or disqualified from holding office. If that's not enough opposition lawmakers can be stripped of their office as convenient, while the courts make arbitrary and unjust rulings at the order of the president: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06yzms9 Like most things to do with the Venezuelan government the process has been messy and marred by incompetence. The PSUV didn't used to have to steal elections, so they've been rather slow to develop a real system.
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Jan 25, 2019 02:34
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Chuck Boone posted:I think that today was relatively quiet, although I wasn't able to spend as much time looking at this as I did yesterday. I think one of the biggest news was the US announcing that it was pulling all non-essential staff out of the country. It's going to be interesting to see what happens if Maduro decides to make good on his promise to kick *all* US staff out, and the U.S. refuses to abide. For tv my dude, so that the cameras could catch mr minister doing his civic duty and showing all the steps necessary to vote to remind people watching at home that might not have yet voted. Its done everywhere even in countries not named venezuela.i help run some of the voting assemblies in my burrough.all the training i had pointed out that election fraud isn't done balot by balot.its done when the tally is being done,or when voting boxes disappear altogether.thats why observers,accurate voter rolls and triple counting are so important.
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Jan 25, 2019 02:34
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Pretty sure the last 'election' announced more votes for Maduro than people who actually voted in the previous election.
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Jan 25, 2019 02:36
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:For tv my dude, so that the cameras could catch mr minister doing his civic duty and showing all the steps necessary to vote to remind people watching at home that might not have yet voted. Its done everywhere even in countries not named venezuela.i help run some of the voting assemblies in my burrough.all the training i had pointed out that election fraud isn't done balot by balot.its done when the tally is being done,or when voting boxes disappear altogether.thats why observers,accurate voter rolls and triple counting are so important. What point are you trying to make here with this interesting construction of a sentence?
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Jan 25, 2019 02:38
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:For tv my dude, so that the cameras could catch mr minister doing his civic duty and showing all the steps necessary to vote to remind people watching at home that might not have yet voted. Its done everywhere even in countries not named venezuela.i help run some of the voting assemblies in my burrough.all the training i had pointed out that election fraud isn't done balot by balot.its done when the tally is being done,or when voting boxes disappear altogether.thats why observers,accurate voter rolls and triple counting are so important. Uh. . . It is absolutely not true that election fraud isn't done ballot by ballot. For example, consider the recent case of election fraud in a US Congressional election in South Carolina. In this case one party was illegally collecting and then filling in absentee ballots, and destroying those that were already filled out for the wrong candidate. There is a long tradition of vote buying in Latin America that operates at the individual level. Here is one essay about it in modern Mexico: https://journals.sub.uni-hamburg.de/giga/jpla/article/view/942/949 quote:Vote buying did not disappear with Mexico’s transition to democracy. In its hegemonic period, the PRI is known to have employed a variety of techniques for obtaining votes undemocratically (Lean 2010). As it turns out, political brokers still carry out this operation in several ways. While votes are secret in Mexico because we use the Australian ballot system, a few means to monitor the voter’s decision have been devised. In the past, it was common to ask a child hired by the broker to accompany the adult voter into the booth to corroborate the voter’s mark on the ballot. Nowadays, it is more common to simply ask the voter to take a picture of his ballot with a cell phone, which must be shown to the broker before payment of the promised benefit. As mentioned above, this practice was explicitly forbidden by law in 2014; but there is evidence that it still occurred the following year (Elizondo 2015).
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Jan 25, 2019 02:42
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Giggle Goose posted:What point are you trying to make here with this interesting construction of a sentence? That my syntax sucks and that posting that video as proof of election tampering is dumb.thank you for asking.
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Jan 25, 2019 02:45
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As a side note, Democrats have been oddly silent on this topic. I sure hope they don't screw this up in the typical tone-deaf way they treat Latinos and Latin American foreign policy. Otherwise, I sure hope they weren't planning on carrying Florida in 2020
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Jan 25, 2019 02:53
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We're gonna have to respectfully agree to disagree here, friends. "Committing electoral fraud live on television to own the fascists" would be as good an explanation as we'd be likely to get from the government about that, though. There's a power outage affecting some areas of Caracas right now. Here's a video of a cacerolazo in La Pastora at about 8:15 PM tonight. Looks like a lot of other cacerolazo videos, minus the lights: https://twitter.com/ReporteYa/status/1088592903138615297 And he's another protest, this one in a place called La Pradera in Carabobo state: https://twitter.com/ElyangelicaNews/status/1088598828012457984 Another bit of news is that attorney general Tarek William Saab held a press conference this afternoon, and a journalist asked him point blank if Guaido was going to be arrested. Saab gave a really vague answer, saying that he wouldn't comment but that in the future he would "announce the actions that are being prepared at this moment": https://twitter.com/EfectoCocuyo/status/1088546114398240769 The answer was telling, I think, because it's a tacit admission that the regime understands that it's in a vulnerable position right now. If it felt secure, it'd order Guaido arrested. They've locked up tons of people for much less.
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Jan 25, 2019 03:05
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elgatofilo posted:As a side note, Democrats have been oddly silent on this topic. I sure hope they don't screw this up in the typical tone-deaf way they treat Latinos and Latin American foreign policy. Otherwise, I sure hope they weren't planning on carrying Florida in 2020 Bernie said, and I quote: "Maduro is fuckin' terrible, but let's not do any coups, we have a real bad track record there."
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Jan 25, 2019 03:13
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Norton the First posted:Bernie said, and I quote: "Maduro is fuckin' terrible, but let's not do any coups, we have a real bad track record there." which is more or less the correct answer
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Jan 25, 2019 03:22
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Norton the First posted:Bernie said, and I quote: "Maduro is fuckin' terrible, but let's not do any coups, we have a real bad track record there." Bernie is correct.
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Jan 25, 2019 03:25
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GreyjoyBastard posted:which is more or less the correct answer I read the Bernie tweets in full and he says "The United States should support the rule of law, fair elections and self-determination for the Venezuelan people. We must condemn the use of violence against unarmed protesters and the suppression of dissent." How exactly is that incompatible with actions taken thus far? Maduro is in power partially because the US allows a regime that it knows is stealing material wealth to sell this wealth to American companies which proceed to give Maduro the money he needs to buy his supporters. Passively accepting the spoils of a military dictatorial regime is some real throwback 18th century imperialism, it is not "non-intervention," it's theatrics meant to give the appearance of non-intervention while providing material support (AKA monetary intervention) to a regime. This is not the correct answer. The US is already "intervening" in Venezuela no matter what it does due to the nature of the deeply intertwined oil industry. The question is whether the US will choose 18th century style imperialism or at least attempt to uphold the ideals of liberal democracy. elgatofilo fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Jan 25, 2019 |
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Jan 25, 2019 03:33
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The US doesn't need to do a coup. What they need to do is put their actions where their words are and make it clear to Maduro that they expect him to recognize the interrim president and not hinder him in carrying out his responsibilities as far as organizing elections. And if his regime tries to use violence and illegal means to block this, then the US should commence sanctions against PDVSA and Venezuelan oil. Military action is both unnecessary and undesirable. That is what I think. Though I'll leave the words of Venezuealans to actually carry wieght. As for what will actually happen, who really knows at this point. e: The correct path is probably to keep hitting these guys in their pocket books, and keep cutting off their access to money. Hell, if it comes to it even arrange for them to safely leave the country and live out their lives in exiled comfort in Russia or Central Asia or something. Just get them away from ruling Venezuela. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Jan 25, 2019 |
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Jan 25, 2019 03:36
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elgatofilo posted:This is not the correct answer. The current answer is that the United States should spend its people and money in a military adventure so Venezuelan expats can return to their former glory? How is that any different than the South Vietnamese exiles who are upset America won't back a war for them to resurrect south Vietnam? Or the Taiwanese Americans who want Americans to fight China for them to keep the island independent?
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Jan 25, 2019 03:39
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Fighting in Venezuela's civil war sounds like a great idea, sign me up
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Jan 25, 2019 03:47
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Randarkman posted:The US doesn't need to do a coup. What they need to do is put their actions where their words are and make it clear to Maduro that they expect him to recognize the interrim president and not hinder him in carrying out his responsibilities as far as organizing elections. And if his regime tries to use violence and illegal means to block this, then the US should commence sanctions against PDVSA and Venezuelan oil. Military action is both unnecessary and undesirable. That is currently the plan, I'm not sure what people are defining as a "coup" here, I'm using the word "invasion" to refer to military action. "Coup" seems to have taken on the meaning of "any mention whatsoever of the current Venezuelan regime in an unfavorable light." CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:The current answer is that the United States should spend its people and money in a military adventure so Venezuelan expats can return to their former glory? I'm not going to pretend to know about the geo-politics of southeast asia (they way you're pretending to know about the geo-politics of Latin America.) However, I will mention that the current PRC expats in Los Angeles put any Latin American expat in Miami to shame in terms of their ostentatious and gaudy displays of wealth and power. Also, Taiwan does have a a government that is independent from the PRC, so not sure what that segue is about. And, since we're talking about China: Frankly, China's lack of moral leadership on Venezuela is disturbing and just shows the kind of primitive 18th century imperialism they're willing to engage in. This is likely to end up a huge foreign policy loss for China that will haunt them and their relationship with Latin America for a long time. Side note: I was in Vietnam in November and I didn't see anyone starving in the streets, out of control crime or protests calling for the overthrow of the government. I found a developing economy that is attempting lift its people out of poverty through industrialization and capitalist reforms, pretty much the opposite of what Venezuela is currently doing. elgatofilo fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Jan 25, 2019 |
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Jan 25, 2019 03:56
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:How is that any different than the South Vietnamese exiles who are upset America won't back a war for them to resurrect south Vietnam? lol, you really had me going for the longest time.
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Jan 25, 2019 04:02
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Or the Taiwanese Americans who want Americans to fight China for them to keep the island independent? Taiwan #1 
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Jan 25, 2019 04:16
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https://twitter.com/John_Hudson/status/1088643164230033408 NARRATOR: they did not
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Jan 25, 2019 05:00
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:Chances of that happening where low after 2002, and basically none after Chavez death.socialist countries failing after their main figures die or retire is a disturbing tendency that i don't think many socialists really grapple and acknowledge.i mean the only one that did it off the top of my head is Cuba and that has a bunch of asterisks next to it. Now me personally I think the movement against monopolized social power, the one big on power of the masses, really needs to not get involved with the whole personality cult thing in the first place? Call me crazy but those are bad things.
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Jan 25, 2019 05:14
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Grape posted:Now me personally I think the movement against monopolized social power, the one big on power of the masses, really needs to not get involved with the whole personality cult thing in the first place? Call me crazy but those are bad things. From looking at the history of the world, it seems that one leader making decisions and them being acted on, even if they're not the correct decisions, holds up better than committee rule. I guess if you're accepting input there's a good chance some of that input is people trying to sabotage. Note that all of this is sleepy ranting as I can't seem to. Fall asleep
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