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I cannot believe that with the USA's billions poured into ultra stealth planes that we cannot drop food and aid packages without worrying about 60s-80s era Soviet AA defenses. Like that can't really be a real concern while Trump refuses to let the embassy evacuate right.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:02
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Democrazy posted:I’m not in favor of any US intervention in Venezuela, but I’m under the impression that in order for there to be a coup, by definition there has to be force, usually by the military. Is that what’s happening in Venezuela? quote:A coup d'état (/ˌkuː deɪˈtɑː/ (About this soundlisten); French: [ku deta]), also known simply as a coup, a putsch (/pʊtʃ/), golpe, or an overthrow, is an illegal and overt seizure of a state by the military or other elites within the state apparatus.[1] Nothing about it says it needs force. Moridin920 posted:Like that can't really be a real concern while Trump refuses to let the embassy evacuate right. They caved on the embassy, Trump and the neoliberal goons plotting this can't even get benghazi 2.0 right
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Jan 25, 2019 21:02
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Moridin920 posted:I cannot believe that with the USA's billions poured into ultra stealth planes that we cannot drop food and aid packages without worrying about 60s-80s era Soviet AA defenses. the real concern is "maduro would probably try to hoard all this aid" and the answer is "the collective democratic world has so much excess of everything we can carpet the whole loving country in food and medicine". but apparently that's not acceptable, because 
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Jan 25, 2019 21:06
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Truga posted:it's in the interest of the global left to help the proletariat seize the means of production, overthrow our oppressors, fix the environment so not only the very rich and connected will survive past 2100, and also basic human rights for all inhabitants of the earth. if anyone says otherwise they're a reactionary poo poo, not a lefty. Agreed, but the American left overwhelmingly falls into the former category.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:06
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Moridin920 posted:Yeah the USA has such a rich history of helping South America via intervening. It's not like they funded fascist death squads across the entire continent in the 80s or anything. People are already starving. Starving. On a country with one of the biggest oil reserves in the world. Should they go "nah fam allow them to keep stealing and killing us, we don't want you here"? Don't place politics over literally the life of a whole country and maybe you can see that any option would be better than assured destruction. I'll tell my mom to keep living on lentils, cheese and as much money as I can send her through shady channels because the USA is bad. Edit: I wish there were better options than to side with Bolsonaro and Trump, but people like you have made it impossible. It would've been great to have international support when we were calling bullshit on the last few elections. Hugoon Chavez fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Jan 25, 2019 |
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Jan 25, 2019 21:06
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Nothing about it says it needs force. Okay, so coup just means that someone aside from Maduro has declared themselves President.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:08
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Moridin920 posted:I cannot believe that with the USA's billions poured into ultra stealth planes that we cannot drop food and aid packages without worrying about 60s-80s era Soviet AA defenses. Dropping food in an environment where air defense is still a thing is probably a recipe for losing a lot of C-130s or whatever (transport planes not being noted for their dexterous flight). Plus the only people who still definitely have gasoline and access to heavy trucks are regime loyalists. I’m not sure what the plan is here?
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Jan 25, 2019 21:09
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Willing to bet if the USA actually dropped supplies like that posters in this thread would decry it as an intervention trying to destabilize the country.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:12
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Hugoon Chavez posted:People are already starving. Starving. In the richest country in the world. Maybe America should autocoup. Venezuelans also starved in the early 1990s (hence the chavez coup attempt) but since neoliberals were doing it I guess it was ok
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Jan 25, 2019 21:12
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Moridin920 posted:Why doesn't the USA stop trying to put Venezuela into default and crash its economy if they care so much about the lives of ordinary Venezuelans? Funny story—Venezuela is actually completely dependent on the US, and the United States could have crushed their economy completely at any time! See, while Venezuela has huge oil reserves, their oil is very heavy and dirty and requires significant refinement before it can be sold. As a result, something like 90% IIRC of Venezuelan oil is actually shipped to the US to be refined. If the US wanted to torpedo the Venezuelan economy, they could have easily done so the second Chavez was elected by placing sanctions on Venezuelan oil. The only sanctions that are in place are on specific individuals in the Venezuelan government who happen to be massively corrupt (and also probable drug smugglers, which the US happens to frown upon). Moridin920 posted:I guess really I should ask why does anyone trust Donald Trump to do anything remotely resembling the right thing? Well, here's my take on the situation. Trump, as we all know, is a limp dicked coward at heart. While he may have toyed with the idea of ordering military strikes against Venezuela or sending the CIA to go gently caress around, those actions will have inevitable consequences that even he's aware of that he can't just pass off as being the fault of the Democrats, and most of his advisors are dead-set against it—same reason why he basically gave up on intervention in Syria after some halfhearted cruise missile strikes. The current situation is likely one where some folks (Including Pence, who appears to have taken the lead on this) got the bright idea that the Maduro regime is so weak that any pressure at all would cause it to collapse. All they'd have to do is cooperate with the opposition to get new elections on the table (This course of action may have organically arisen from within the opposition and the US decided to support it, or the US suggested it, it's impossible to know either way), recognize the opposition to put international political pressure on Maduro, threaten economic sanctions to really put the screws on Maduro's government (Since if the US does turn off the oil refineries, that directly cuts the paychecks of the PSUV's upper brass while also dooming the rest of the venezuelan economy, watch as new elections bring in a new US-friendly government, and get a big political victory during the horror show that is the shutdown. The opposition (Which I should remind people is made up of a wide collection of parties, many of which are socialism-aligned) probably went along with it because they're desperate and don't see any other way out. Trump is the worst possible bedfellow imaginable, but the alternative is to either flee the country (As most of the Venezuelans who post in this thread have done) or watch as those who can't flee slowly suffer and starve. Maybe some of them have some visions of power, but for the most part I think they want to see the crisis end, just like everyone else. Unfortunately, because Trump and his cabinet are stupid stubborn idiots, I doubt they have any plan B, not even a military one—since as near as I can tell, the nearest carrier group is still docked in Norfolk. And because Maduro's government is also made up of stupid stubborn idiots, I doubt they will step down, which means that if sanctions do go into place Venezuela will instantly become the biggest humanitarian disaster in the hemisphere, more so. Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Jan 25, 2019 |
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Jan 25, 2019 21:13
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Moridin920 posted:I cannot believe that with the USA's billions poured into ultra stealth planes that we cannot drop food and aid packages without worrying about 60s-80s era Soviet AA defenses. plus, maduro is willing to do almost anything to get access to credit. the us could theoretically extend credit in exchange for some percent of it being spent on american food, a much better deal than what maduro is paying now that would also prop up us farmers who need new markets.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:13
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AP Exclusive: Anti-Maduro coalition grew from secret talks quote:Long sessions of encrypted text messaging became the norm, the opposition leader said. A U.S. official said intermediaries were used to deliver messages to Guaido’s political mentor and opposition power broker Leopoldo Lopez, who is under house arrest after he tried and failed to lead a mass uprising against Maduro in 2014. The U.S. official spoke on condition of anonymity out of security concerns. Not a coup. Notice that the goalposts have moved from "no US involvement, this is all organic" to "so what if the US is involved, they deserved it anyway!"
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Jan 25, 2019 21:15
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Moridin920 posted:Why doesn't the USA stop trying to put Venezuela into default and crash its economy if they care so much about the lives of ordinary Venezuelans? This sure would be relevant if such a thing happened. GoluboiOgon posted:end sanctions against venezuela. Name the sanctions against Venezuela. Remember, sanctions against billionaires' personal bank balances don't count.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:16
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:AP Exclusive: Anti-Maduro coalition grew from secret talks Why are you so hung up on whether it’s called a coup or not? You already said that coup doesn’t imply any kind of use of force.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:18
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Maybe America should autocoup. Venezuelans also starved in the early 1990s (hence the chavez coup attempt) but since neoliberals were doing it I guess it was ok Hi, I literally lived in Venezuela in the 90s and people weren't starving for poo poo. It wasn't great, but people weren't starving, we had medicine available, and great, propaganda-free education. Please keep telling me how my own country was like. Edit: oh and before you acuse me of being a rich capitalist in a foreign country, during the Chavez period I almost lost my home and food was tight. I got out by working and being lucky enough to have a family owned business that actually picked up once my mother and I got involved. Hugoon Chavez fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Jan 25, 2019 |
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Jan 25, 2019 21:19
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So, if I'm reading the article right, Trump got obsessed with Venezuela, other Latin American countries realized that Trump is so dumb and malleable they could push him towards supporting the opposition, and then secretly collaborated to form an Anti-Maduro coalition that spanned the entire hemisphere.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:23
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Democrazy posted:Why are you so hung up on whether it’s called a coup or not? You already said that coup doesn’t imply any kind of use of force. Because a lot of people in this thread are fighting a holding action, first claiming that the US wasn't involved in any way and now apparently moving the goalposts when it is clear that the US is actively involved.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:23
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fishmech posted:This sure would be relevant if such a thing happened. For reference https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/programs/pages/venezuela.aspx Thats , uh, a little more than "just bilionaires"
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Jan 25, 2019 21:24
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:For reference Liberals used the same trick when the ACA was being passed, they'd ask you if you read it if you criticized the law, as if anyone had the time or patience to see 1000 pages of tweaks and revisions made to USC.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:26
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Because a lot of people in this thread are fighting a holding action, first claiming that the US wasn't involved in any way and now apparently moving the goalposts when it is clear that the US is actively involved. It kind of feels like US involvement is irrelevant to whether it was a coup or not. Like, coups can happen without foreign involvement, and foreign involvement doesn’t necessarily mean coup.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:26
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Democrazy posted:I’m not in favor of any US intervention in Venezuela, but I’m under the impression that in order for there to be a coup, by definition there has to be force, usually by the military. Is that what’s happening in Venezuela? Not sure where the literature is on the textbook definition of a "coup d'etat", but the argument you hear from opposition candidates is that a coup is by definition illegal and launched by the military. So, their argument is that this is not a coup d'etat because it's not illegal (citing article 233 of the constitution), and because it was not launched by the military. Their argument is that the constitution is functioning exactly as intended. Not sure if this was posted here yet (extremely swamped with work right now) but Reuters is reporting that Russian-backed mercenaries have arrived in Venezuela "to protect Maduro".
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Jan 25, 2019 21:27
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Because a lot of people in this thread are fighting a holding action, first claiming that the US wasn't involved in any way and now apparently moving the goalposts when it is clear that the US is actively involved. None of the informed posters in this thread have suggested what you're saying at all. I am still waiting to hear your explanation for China's interventionist policy and imperialist looting of Venezuelan wealth, however.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:32
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Chuck Boone posted:
I think someone posted it earlier, but yeah this is bad.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:37
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:For reference Examples: quote:Section 1. (a) All transactions related to, provision of financing for, and quote:All transactions related to, provision of financing for, and Sometimes they even name the people being sanctioned: quote:ANNEX
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Jan 25, 2019 21:38
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Xae posted:Read the documents at the bottom. The EOs that created the sanctions are there. Each one is about 2-3 pages. Each one has about a page and a half of chain form legalese that can be ignored. Section 1 is usually the sanction, the other sections are restating legal definitions. Yeah, it mostly targets individuals but this part is a brutal gut punch to the country as a whole: (i) new debt with a maturity of greater than 90 days of Petroleos de Venezuela, S.A. (PdVSA); (ii) new debt with a maturity of greater than 30 days, or new equity, of the Government of Venezuela, other than debt of PdVSA covered by subsection (a)(i) of this section; (iii) bonds issued by the Government of Venezuela prior to the effective date of this order; or (iv) dividend payments or other distributions of profits to the Government of Venezuela from any entity owned or controlled, directly or indirectly, by the Government of Venezuela.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:44
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:For reference alright because I hate myself, let's review The 2015 Sanctions deal specifically with the following individuals and their direct family members: 1. Antonio Jose´ Benavides Torres [Commander of the Central Integral Strategic Defense Region of the National Armed Forces, former Director of Operations for the National Guard; born June 13, 1961] 2. Gustavo Enrique Gonza´lez Lo´pez [Director General of the National Intelligence Service and President of the Strategic Center of Security and Protection of the Homeland; born November 2, 1960] 3. Justo Jose´ Noguera Pietri [President of the Venezuelan Corporation of Guayana, former General Commander of the National Guard; born March 15, 1961] 4. Katherine Nayarith Haringhton Padron [National Level Prosecutor of the 20th District Office of the Public Ministry; born December 5, 1971] 5. Manuel Eduardo Pe´rez Urdaneta [Director of the National Police; born May 26, 1962] 6. Manuel Gregorio Bernal Martı´nez [Chief of the 31st Armored Brigade of Caracas, former Director General of the National Intelligence Service; born July 12, 1965] 7. Miguel Alcides Vivas Landino [Inspector General of the National Armed Forces, former Commander of the Andes Integral Strategic Defense Region of the National Armed Forces; born July 8, 1961] As well as "any person determined by the Secretary of the Treasury, in consultation with the Secretary of State" to have contributed to the erosion of democracy and the economic crisis. 2017 Sanctions say no purchasing of long term (30 or 90 day) debt from the PDVSA or the government of Venezuela. First 2018 sanctions say "No buying their dumb bitcoin knockoff" Second 2018 sanctions say "No buying Venezuelan government debt that includes Venezuelan assets as collateral" Third 2018 sanctions are on individuals in control of certain Venezuelan industries (explicitly gold) who are determined by the Secretaries of the Treasury and State to be involved in explicit corruption with the government. Each one is only a couple pages long, it's not hard to read them yourselves.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:44
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:Yeah, it mostly targets individuals but this part is a brutal gut punch to the country as a whole: Not really. The US isn't the only source of capital in the world, as the loans from Russia and China show. Plus the reason why they're sanctioned is because the US thinks they've already been mortgaged off and its a scam where they are using existing assets to secure multiple loans.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:46
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quote:I, DONALD J. TRUMP, President of the United States of America, in order a lot more than just individual oligarchs in these
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Jan 25, 2019 21:47
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https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-25/u-k-said-to-deny-maduro-s-bid-to-pull-1-2-billion-of-gold Trap sprung. Let's see how much longer Maduro's cronies support him when there's no more money to steal.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:49
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The fascinating thing for me about Venezuela is it’s ties to fossil fuels as a means of financing its social programs. This itself isn’t odd (Norway did the same thing, for instance), but it is at odds with trying to fight global climate change. Was there any plan to move Venezuela to a point where it wasn’t exporting oil, or at least exporting far less than it has in the past?
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Jan 25, 2019 21:51
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Hugoon Chavez posted:People are already starving. Starving. On a country with one of the biggest oil reserves in the world. At least you're open about it I suppose. "Starving! Also btw the oil!" 
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Jan 25, 2019 21:52
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:Yeah, it mostly targets individuals but this part is a brutal gut punch to the country as a whole: What I'm not clear on is why these sanctions have the impact they seem to. The rules prohibit dealings by "United States person[s]," so in practice, US banks and the US subsidiaries of foreign banks. I don't understand why Deutsche Bank et al. haven't occupied the vacuum. I think what's actually happened is that they have, but when a large enough portion of the financial industry isn't lending you money, getting credit at reasonable rates becomes more complicated (though not impossible).
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Jan 25, 2019 21:52
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Norton the First posted:What I'm not clear on is why these sanctions have the impact they seem to. The rules prohibit dealings by "United States person[s]," so in practice, US banks and the US subsidiaries of foreign banks. I don't understand why Deutsche Bank et al. haven't occupied the vacuum. I think what's actually happened is that they have, but when a large enough portion of the financial industry isn't lending you money, getting credit at reasonable rates becomes more complicated (though not impossible). Because they are afraid they will be sanctioned by the USA if they do so. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-sanctions/venezuela-says-u-s-sanctions-hampering-debt-renegotiation-idUSKCN1GB2EA quote:FEBRUARY 27, 2018 Also, quote:I think what's actually happened is that they have, but when a large enough portion of the financial industry isn't lending you money, getting credit at reasonable rates becomes more complicated (though not impossible). This is the stated goal of the US State Department. quote:Background Briefing on the Secretary's Travel to Austin, Texas; Mexico City, Mexico; San Carlos Bariloche, Argentina; Buenos Aires, Argentina; Lima, Peru; Bogota, Colombia; and Kingston, Jamaica
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Jan 25, 2019 21:53
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Moridin920 posted:At least you're open about it I suppose. "Starving! Also btw the oil!" Kind of a huge rear end in a top hat thing to say. He was clearly saying "people are starving in a nation blessed with an abundance of valuable natural resources," not "please come give us freedom Exxon Mobile." quote:Because they are afraid they will be sanctioned by the USA if they do so. Bit, uh, thinly sourced, wouldn't you say?
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Jan 25, 2019 21:54
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Norton the First posted:Kind of a huge rear end in a top hat thing to say. He was clearly saying "people are starving in a nation blessed with an abundance of valuable natural resources," not "please come give us freedom Exxon Mobile." It's too bad the USA is infamous for doing the latter and you'd kind of have to be naive as hell to buy the exact same reasoning behind invading Iraq all over again. There is no situation in which US involvement beyond lifting sanctions and sending food/aid ends better.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:55
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Norton the First posted:What I'm not clear on is why these sanctions have the impact they seem to. The rules prohibit dealings by "United States person[s]," so in practice, US banks and the US subsidiaries of foreign banks. I don't understand why Deutsche Bank et al. haven't occupied the vacuum. I think what's actually happened is that they have, but when a large enough portion of the financial industry isn't lending you money, getting credit at reasonable rates becomes more complicated (though not impossible). Because generally when the Treasury says "Its a scam" people listen. Even before the sanctions VZ was having problems issuing new debt because of the hyper inflation. The US doesn't want its own citizens buying some junk bonds with a 1000% interest rating when they know the VZ government has no ability or intention to repay them.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:55
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If the USA cared so much it'd stop selling arms to the Saudis but it won't. It's an evil empire. Stop trying to tell me Donald Trump and the GOP are just bleeding their hearts out over the plight of Venezuelan people when they don't even give a poo poo about their own federal employees. They don't give a gently caress about those people as evidenced by the fact that they helped engineer this economic crisis to begin with and are now licking their lips over "debt restructuring."
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Jan 25, 2019 21:57
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Moridin920 posted:Because they are afraid they will be sanctioned by the USA if they do so. Yeah this is why us sanctions are downright scary for basically everyone,it will shut down any half way legal access to finance worldwide. Its a loving miracle that cuba is still alive. That 2018 sanction to the dumb petro crypto was really funny though.
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Jan 25, 2019 21:58
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:Yeah this is why us sanctions are downright scary for basically everyone,it will shut down any half way legal access to finance worldwide. It is funny that DeutscheBank and the others don't give a poo poo about laundering terror/cartel money though. That's fine. No one is gonna threaten to pull their charter over that. 
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Jan 25, 2019 21:59
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Democrazy posted:The fascinating thing for me about Venezuela is it’s ties to fossil fuels as a means of financing its social programs. This itself isn’t odd (Norway did the same thing, for instance), but it is at odds with trying to fight global climate change. Was there any plan to move Venezuela to a point where it wasn’t exporting oil, or at least exporting far less than it has in the past? gently caress no. They have been exporting far less oil since they replaced competent people in PDVSA with those loyal to the regime, but that is certainly unintentional. Also, fuel is really, really, really cheap: 
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