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Chomskyan posted:Honestly, it would be more surprising if the US hadn't murdered Chavez Why not just like sabotage the plane though? Or a bridge collapses? Or even if you concede the logistical madness and accessibility that you would need to pull this off, literally anything else which would be more reliable, less time consuming, less expensive and, apparently (and I can’t loving believe this is the case) more believable than this stupid method?
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Jan 26, 2019 18:38
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Why would the US go out of the way to choose a "more believable" method of assassination? Your post is incoherent. Also that method of assassination isn't new
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Jan 26, 2019 18:40
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America has no qualms about murdering leftists whether they be American, Venezuelan, or otherwise.
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Jan 26, 2019 18:42
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uninterrupted posted:Most news organizations have been arguing the last Venezuelan elections were rigged, and there's no evidence of that since the election observers were asked to stay from Venezuela by hard-right opposition parties [...] I provided evidence of organizations stating election rigging including ones the government pointed to in the past to prove their own legitimacy as well as their own vote counters stating it was fraudulent. Second, once-a-loving-gain the parties against Maduro are a coalition not a single party, with the largest member parties being socialist parties. I know it doesnt fit a comfy narrative but the issue here is not a right v left american framework, it is that the current regime has done incredible harm to every aspect of Venezuela with nothing to show for it, not even any semblance of ideological purity. readingatwork posted:LOL at the last paragraph saying “except in the places where it’s still a law it’s not a law anymore”. There was another supreme court ruling on banning communist party members from public services which was struck down. While still technically a separate law on the books regarding political parties, since no one challenged all the way to the supreme court and just accepted the loss at federal circuit level and 50 years since with no enforcement you are vastly more likely to be able to bar your opponent from running due to illegal cohabitation outside of wedlock which is also still on the books than using this method. Regardless of the fact, of course, the issue is not about US policy but rather Venezuela and whether or not it qualifies as a functional democracy in the face of the actions it has taken. Barudak fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Jan 26, 2019 |
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Jan 26, 2019 18:43
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Chomskyan posted:Why would the US go out of the way to choose a "more believable" method of assassination? Your post is incoherent. Also that method of assassination isn't new No it isn’t. you would need loving decades of time to pull something like this off with someone who has access to the most private aspects of this persons life. Christ, the only surviving dude that got exposed to the demon core directly when it was going critical and received an insane dose of radiation only manifested cancer 33 years later If you could convince me that this makes any loving sense then we are all just loving doomed because that is some incredible foresight and tenth dimentional chess right there e: 33, not 25 Furia fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Jan 26, 2019 |
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Jan 26, 2019 18:44
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You just slip the radioactive material into their food or drink like any other poison. Very weird that your making it out to be more than that but ok
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Jan 26, 2019 18:46
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Furia posted:Why not just like sabotage the plane though? Or a bridge collapses? Or even if you concede the logistical madness and accessibility that you would need to pull this off, literally anything else which would be more reliable, less time consuming, less expensive and, apparently (and I can’t loving believe this is the case) more believable than this stupid method? "Hugo Chavez is hated by an international regime who has assassinated multiple leftist leaders. Not saying this happened, but is it possible they murdered him?" I need to see incontrovertible proof! "The Venezuelan elections were inarguably corrupt according to the political party that lynches people and the US State Department" ya sure probs lol
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Jan 26, 2019 18:47
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I think most incomprehensible part is the thought that the US Government could pull off any sort of assassination given the chucklefucks in charge.
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Jan 26, 2019 18:48
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If the opposition cared so much about legitimate elections, why did they ask the UN to not observe them? It's almost as if the opposition was acting in bad faith, and intended to declare the election a fraud regardless
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Jan 26, 2019 18:48
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I wonder how many people who are posting in this thread that Maduro is actually helping his people by starving them to death (or they're not even starving! western lies!) and that any opposition to maduro is a vast CIA-organized psyop as a followup to secretly murdering Chavez also post about how stupid QAnon is
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Jan 26, 2019 18:52
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Chomskyan posted:You just slip the radioactive material into their food or drink like any other poison. Very weird that your making it out to be more than that but ok Oh, word? Like I didn’t think of that? It doesn’t make any sense. The logistics of pulling something like that off would be that of an unbelievably complex operation with an incredible loving foresight, which leads me back to Furia posted:If you could convince me that this makes any loving sense then we are all just loving doomed because that is some incredible foresight and tenth dimentional chess right there
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Jan 26, 2019 18:52
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Chomskyan posted:You just slip the radioactive material into their food or drink like any other poison. Very weird that your making it out to be more than that but ok If you have unfettered access to their food and drink where you can slip radioactive material into it and control the dosage such that the victim gets a natural-appearing stomach cancer and collect the radioactive evidence afterwards while knowing they may well survive thanks to their access to medicine- A) how come you cant fly a drone right to actually kill someone? B) why are you wasting your time on this harebrained scheme when you have comprimised so much of their security you could just have them stuff him in a zipped up duffel bag and drown him and rule it natural causes?
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Jan 26, 2019 18:53
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"the CIA has organized a vast conspiracy to destabilize Venezuela through secretly killing Chavez, operating thousands of fake social media accounts, and convincing millions of people to protest against the legitimate government BUT is also really incompetent and always fucks everything up"
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Jan 26, 2019 18:54
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This thread has gone exciting places
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Jan 26, 2019 18:58
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Barudak posted:Second, once-a-loving-gain the parties against Maduro are a coalition not a single party, with the largest member parties being socialist parties. I know it doesnt fit a comfy narrative but the issue here is not a right v left american framework, it is that the current regime has done incredible harm to every aspect of Venezuela with nothing to show for it, not even any semblance of ideological purity. This is what is so  about the whole goddamn thing. These guys don't even qualify as "Just to show that we're sincere, we'll sing 'The Red Flag' once a year" "Socialists", their one and only claim to any sort of left-cred is "We went to the UN and said 'Trump a poo poo'" which is some fantastically weak tea, praxis-wise. Meanwhile they're starving the workers, disenfranchising native populations, jailing opponents, and padding their off-shore bank accounts. This is some straight-up Tropico-scale bullshit.Maduro is not Allende: this is not some plucky little Socialist party assailed by big bad Uncle Sam. If you stand on the side of Maduro or his party retaining power your ideological confusion is being weaponized by robber barons and the forces of international reaction to further mortgage and starve the Venezuelans.
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Jan 26, 2019 18:58
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Maduro preventing medical aid from getting to Venezuelans is good! Oh, wait: quote:Around 2009, the long-term decline in infant mortality rate stopped, and a new pattern of increase was observed. The infant mortality rate reached 21·1 deaths per 1000 livebirths (90% CI −17·8 to 24·3) in 2016, almost 1·4 times the rate of 2008 (15·0, −14·0 to 16·1). This increase represents a huge setback on previous achievements in reducing infant mortality. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-109X(18)30479-0/fulltext And this study ends in 2016. What's the infant mortality rate in Venezuela today? Can you find another country with a sharp increase in infant mortality, let alone one with the infrastructure Venezuela has?
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Jan 26, 2019 19:02
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Barudak posted:I provided evidence of organizations stating election rigging including ones the government pointed to in the past to prove their own legitimacy as well as their own vote counters stating it was fraudulent. You posted one, the Carter Center, which wasn't at the last elections: https://www.cartercenter.org/countries/venezuela.html The put out one article about the 2017 elections, no sources, no specific complains beyond 'absence of electoral integrity' (which, again, they were not on the ground to observe): https://www.cartercenter.org/news/pr/venezuela-080117.html Their only concrete complain was the arrest of Leopoldo Lopez and Antonio Ledezma, who, to reiterate, were plotting a violent overthrow of the government, and encouraging their supporters to attack the state, especially any apparatus which support the lower classes of Venezuela (which make sense, since most of the opposition is wealthy). Seven Hundred Bee posted:"the CIA has organized a vast conspiracy to destabilize Venezuela through secretly killing Chavez, operating thousands of fake social media accounts, and convincing millions of people to protest against the legitimate government BUT is also really incompetent and always fucks everything up" Tell us more about how the CIA has never destabilized a South American country. Also almost no actual Venezuelans support Guaido (it's one of the reasons he hasn't declared elections yet), it's mostly just Twitter and foreign countries.
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Jan 26, 2019 19:02
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Schadenboner posted:Maduro is not Allende: this is not some plucky little Socialist party assailed by big bad Uncle Sam. If you stand on the side of Maduro or his party retaining power your ideological confusion is being weaponized by robber barons and the forces of international reaction to further mortgage and starve the Venezuelans. lol, yall are trying to make some right-wing idiot, with virtually no domestic support, who never even ran for president, the leader of the country via a US backed coup. Just amazing, the pretzels you twist yourself into to justify that.
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Jan 26, 2019 19:03
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How long will it take to capture Caracas? 2 days Will Maduro be killed? Yes Total Venezuelan civilian casualties: 500 dead Total military casualties Venezuela: 3000 dead Total military casualties U.S.: 15 dead Will the Venezuelan army regulars hold the lines? No Will the Bolivarian Guard fight to the end? No Will chem/bio weapons be used on invading troops?: Yes Will Maduro launch attacks on the indigenous? Yes Will Maduro launch attacks on Brazil? No -If yes; will Brazil retaliate harshly? Yes Will Maduro sacrifice Caracas (gas/nuke it)? No Will the indigenous make a grab for independence? Yes Will Guyana do anything silly like try for land? Yes Will Maduro burn the oil fields? Yes How long will the US be occupying Venezuela? ~15 years Will the Venezuela war catalyze increased terrorism in America?No In the long run, will this war be good or bad for the world? Good We have to look at what those civilian casualties are- just because they're civilian doesn't make them innocent! Lets take a look at a few possibilities: 1) A civilian walking down the street to market gets killed by a cruise missile fired at the market. 2) A civilian asleep in their house is killed when their house is targetting by a smart bomb and blown up. OK, these two are regrettable innocents being killed- but since the US doesn't make a habit of targetting markets or houses, they're very small in number! 3) A civilian working at a chemical weapon factory gets killed when the chemical weapon plant is bombed. 4) A civilian security guard at a weapons depot is killed when the weapons explode. 5) A civilian contractor repairing a tank is killed by a MOAB dropped on the unit. 6) A civilian engineer is killed when the military command center he works at is destroyed. 7) A civilian delivering snackiecakes to the baghdad bunker vending machines eats a 5,000lb bunker buster. etc, etc. The list goes on. My point is that there are a lot of civilians directly supporting the military that aren't exactly "innocent" and would be mire rightly counted among the military casualties than civilian. I'm a civilian and work for the US military, but I acknowledge I'm also a valid military target because of what I do. And I think the vast majority of civilian casualties in this campaign will not be innocent Instant Sunrise fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Jan 26, 2019 |
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Jan 26, 2019 19:03
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Chomskyan posted:lol, yall are trying to make some right-wing idiot, with virtually no domestic support, who never even ran for president, the leader of the country via a US backed coup. Just amazing, the pretzels you twist yourself into to justify that. “Chavez was actually a US stooge” is a hell of a loving take, my dude not going to address the stupid in the rest of the loving post by the way
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Jan 26, 2019 19:04
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yes, Chavez never ran for president. You are very smart.
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Jan 26, 2019 19:06
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uninterrupted posted:You posted one, the Carter Center, which wasn't at the last elections: https://www.cartercenter.org/countries/venezuela.html tell me more about how the videos of hundreds of thousands of venezuelans protesting maduro are fake please. is it photoshop? is it like the moon landing? are all the evil rich ex-pat Venezuelans pooling their money to hire a Hollywood studio?
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Jan 26, 2019 19:07
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:tell me more about how the videos of hundreds of thousands of venezuelans protesting maduro are fake please. is it photoshop? is it like the moon landing? are all the evil rich ex-pat Venezuelans pooling their money to hire a Hollywood studio? Nobody said this. You need to calm down.
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Jan 26, 2019 19:08
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Chomskyan posted:yes, Chavez never ran for president. You are very smart. No, he did. He just happened to pass a constitution that given this set of circumstances makes Guaidó president. Do you have the most basic understanding of what you are taking about? Or are you having a stroke?
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Jan 26, 2019 19:09
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Chomskyan posted:Nobody said this. You need to calm down. uh, many posters have said this. there's a difference between arguing that Venezuela is facing both a humanitarian and political crisis but the US shouldn't intervene in any form (direct intervention, indirection intervention, what have you) and arguing that Venezuela is actually doing great, Maduro was legitimately elected and enjoys wide support, that Maduro stopping foreign aid that would rescue his starving citizens is a good thing, and that Maduro and his cronies haven't mismanaged the country into ruin through excessive theft the former is a reasonable argument grounded in reason that I disagree with the latter is an idiotic fantasy as absurd as qanon
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Jan 26, 2019 19:12
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:tell me more about how the videos of hundreds of thousands of venezuelans protesting maduro are fake please. is it photoshop? is it like the moon landing? are all the evil rich ex-pat Venezuelans pooling their money to hire a Hollywood studio? Wow, went from millions to hundreds of thousands in one post.
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Jan 26, 2019 19:12
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Furia posted:Shut the gently caress up gringo
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Jan 26, 2019 19:13
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uninterrupted posted:Wow, went from millions to hundreds of thousands in one post. you are willfully misreading posts at this point. millions of people protesting (in total) and hundreds of thousands of people protesting (at one time).
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Jan 26, 2019 19:14
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Chomskyan posted:lol, yall are trying to make some right-wing idiot, with virtually no domestic support, who never even ran for president, the leader of the country via a US backed coup. Just amazing, the pretzels you twist yourself into to justify that. Gauido is a member of a party that is a member of the socialist international. Gauidos party is part of a coalition that won a super majority in the national assembly in the last open election and existed to oppose Maduro and his party. Maduro's response was to write a new constitution and bypass the assembly entirely. Gauido's title as President of the National Assembly allows for him to become an interim president if the office is vacant, and his power as interim is to call for a new election within a designated time period. His justification for taking the title of Interim President is that the previous election was so contested Maduro cant be recognized as legitimate so new elections must be held.
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Jan 26, 2019 19:14
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Barudak posted:Gauidos party is part of a coalition that won a super majority in the national assembly in the last open election and existed to oppose Maduro and his party. Maduro's response was to write a new constitution and bypass the assembly entirely. Except they forgot to write the constitution, and have no apparent intention to do so, since that would mean returning legislative power to the National Assembly. Instead they've been ruling by decree, without constitutional restriction (since the Constituent Assembly has declared itself the supreme organ of state). How is that not a coup, anyway? If the National Assembly is staging a coup, the CA set the clear precedent, when it declared itself the ultimate government authority, and granted itself unlimited legislative power. Some coups are better than others, I guess.
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Jan 26, 2019 19:45
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Acebuckeye13 posted:This thread has gone exciting places I love that people can parade around in here demanding that brown people explain their countries politics to them. In addition to demanding people perform basic research for them they then explain why through the power of their whiteness they understand more about what is really going on in the country than the people living in the country. Xae fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Jan 26, 2019 |
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Jan 26, 2019 20:24
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loving love this copypasta. Lmao at the indigenous attempting independence, Zulia seceding would be a more likely scenario. "Burn the oilfields", Amuay burns on the regular through sheer incompetence. What's with this bizarre perception Americans have about our indigenous peoples? The Wayuu, Yanomami and Pemon are all out doing their own poo poo, they're nowhere near Caracas, and they would get absolutely loving nothing out of being independent. They already have enough trouble with the garimpeiros and the corrupt military killing them off for access to illegal mines, why the gently caress would you think they would want to get involved in some bullshit in the capital? It's not like any of you stuck their heads out for them when it mattered. Where were you when the TSJ (the one stacked by Maduro) removed their representation in the National Assembly in 2016 for no loving reason whatsoever? Chomskyan posted:Nobody said this. You need to calm down. So what are they? What are those millions of people? Are they all the elites and white supremacists these guys are saying are the opposition? fnox fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Jan 26, 2019 |
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Jan 26, 2019 20:36
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:
Please describe where the US convinced the Venezuelan state-owned oil company to give away vast amounts of their funds to regime officials and skip out on proper maintenance of their distribution and extraction systems. Also describe where the US convinced the PSUV to expropriate industry and commerce without plans for running those to the benefit of the people of Venezuela. Or at least describe how the US convinced Maduro to go on a big ol political prisoner spree to make his "re-election" illegal. Because you see, these are what "engineered" the crisis in Venezuela today. So if you're saying the US caused them you're going to need to explain how the US did these things.
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Jan 26, 2019 20:42
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fnox posted:loving love this copypasta. Lmao at the indigenous attempting independence, Zulia seceding would be a more likely scenario. "Burn the oilfields", Amuay burns on the regular through sheer incompetence. it's mocking a post that an ex-SA moderator made about invading Iraq back in 2003 and lampooning the ideals of invading Venezuela its just some boilerplate that people like to use as a joke about horrible foreign policy analysis about US intervention and also home construction
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Jan 26, 2019 21:01
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fishmech posted:Please describe where the US convinced the Venezuelan state-owned oil company to give away vast amounts of their funds to regime officials and skip out on proper maintenance of their distribution and extraction systems. Also describe where the US convinced the PSUV to expropriate industry and commerce without plans for running those to the benefit of the people of Venezuela. Or at least describe how the US convinced Maduro to go on a big ol political prisoner spree to make his "re-election" illegal. quote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/ap-exclusive-anti-maduro-coalition-grew-from-secret-talks/2019/01/25/7c0d7ce8-211e-11e9-a759-2b8541bbbe20_story.html?utm_term=.cc4041202c0e The United States literally organized the opposition and the international coalition through secret talks, meaning Guaido is taking marching orders from the United States. Treating the crisis as a purely economic factor is intentionally misleading, because you're trying to pretend the United States has no hand in the political crisis which is developing right now, and the years of economic warfare waged by the United States against Venezuela. The overwhelming extent of this foreign meddling cannot be denied. In addition: https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1088911688521400320 The United States appointed a war criminal as its special envoy to Venezuela, with a long history of supporting genocides and right wing death squads in Latin America. It is clear as day to anyone whose eyes have not glazed over that the United States is pursuing an active strategy of destroying Venezuela.
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Jan 26, 2019 21:09
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“Organized the opposition” simply means getting them to not do stupid poo poo, they already had enough support to do what they’re doing now they just had idiots at the helm like Henry Ramos Allup. What these loving dummies needed was an actual advisor.
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Jan 26, 2019 21:16
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It rules that opposition supporters are complaining about “whiteness” when it’s common knowledge that their movement is way whiter than the Chavistas
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Jan 26, 2019 21:16
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Acebuckeye13 posted:This thread has gone exciting places I've been low-key following this thread for years. In that time, there must have been at least a dozen Venezuelan goons active at one point or another. As far as I can remember, not a single one of them had anything good to say about Maduro. Not one. Their stories have been almost universally heart-wrenching. Whatever happens, I hope he goes.
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Jan 26, 2019 21:18
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fnox posted:“Organized the opposition” simply means getting them to not do stupid poo poo, they already had enough support to do what they’re doing now they just had idiots at the helm like Henry Ramos Allup. What these loving dummies needed was an actual advisor. The "actual advisor" being agents of the country which is appointing a genocidaire to be their special envoy? Guaido was a fool to think the United States would pave his way to power.
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Jan 26, 2019 21:18
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The United States literally organized the opposition and the international coalition through secret talks, meaning Guaido is taking marching orders from the United States. Treating the crisis as a purely economic factor is intentionally misleading, because you're trying to pretend the United States has no hand in the political crisis which is developing right now, and the years of economic warfare waged by the United States against Venezuela. So, cool. You refuse to provide evidence that the US caused the crisis. Instead you're trying to weasel out of it by talking up an "economic warfare" that does not exist and claiming that the legally elected legislature is CIA puppets. And then you tried to spray some chaff about completely unrelated countries in completely unrelated circumstances, because you refuse to address the catastrophic destruction of Hugo Chavez era acheivements under Maduro and the contemporary PSUV policies. So go back to what I asked, and tell me how the US made PDVSA destroy itself, how the US made the Maduro administation embezzle billions of dollars, and how the US made Maduro conduct mass political arrests ahead of elections after the last free elections in Venezuela in the the 2010s.
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Jan 26, 2019 21:18
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