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Truga posted:I dunno man it reads kinda like the way norway does things and they seem to be doing relatively OK. It's not full communism now, but i'll take not-socialism over starving people. Priorities, you know. Norway is a neoliberal hellhole.
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Jan 27, 2019 20:21
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uninterrupted posted:You can. I mean, Guaido doesn’t, but it’s possible in an abstract sense we haven’t seen from the opposition. You've already undercut your analysis of Maduro's opposition, though. I don't think there's much point in going over defense of a current system which is actively causing a complete socioeconomic collapse for the limited, short-sighted benefit of a brutal authoritarian, especially not because it's a sinister neoliberal plot to take (nonexistent) food from the mouths of babes while not actively wondering why almost everyone in the country is impoverished and suffering from significant food availability insecurity unless they're connected very close to PSUV apparatchiks or willing to carry for loyalist enclaves.
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Jan 27, 2019 20:21
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This thread is full of people who couldn't give a flying gently caress about Venezuelans and just want to shout in the void (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 27, 2019 20:22
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All of you are shouting into the void if it’s in English.
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Jan 27, 2019 20:24
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uninterrupted posted:hm, yes, the problem is not enough poor people are starving CLAP is corrupt =/= food for the poor is bad You’d know that CLAP as a system is incredibly loving broken and rotten to a core if you gave a poo poo about minorities, but you don’t, so I guess they can go gently caress themselves so you can score imaginary points on the internet
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Jan 27, 2019 20:25
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punk rebel ecks posted:Norway is a neoliberal hellhole. I don't disagree at all, friend. Still far less of a hellhole than venezuela right now tho.
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Jan 27, 2019 20:25
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Wouldn't the correct way to fix CLAP then be to buy food on the cheap from real companies instead of just shutting it down though?
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Jan 27, 2019 20:26
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Rust Martialis posted:But.. they *are* corruption schemes. This is what a lot of people appear to be willfully ignorant of. Criticizing Maduro's current "social programs" (read: ways to funnel poo poo to friends and loyalists) is not the same as criticizing the concept of social programs. It's like reading a discussion on US healthcare and its problems, and saying to the people who say the system is poo poo: "oh, so you want NO ONE TO HAVE HEALTHCARE????" Of course the answer to the problems in Venezuela is not going to be "have no social programs," it's going to be "replace the instruments of state corruption with social programs that actually function as social programs." It's going to require a lot of investment and international support at this point, but maybe if we stopped treating the situation like some sort of lovely team sport where it's acceptable to support a murderous thief in an attempt to stick a finger in the eye of US hegemony regardless of the cost, it would be possible.
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Jan 27, 2019 20:26
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:
Why do you keep running away from your arguments to whine about everyone except the people responsible for collapsing the Venezuelan economy? The sanctions were put in place to punish the people looting the population of Venezuela, and then later on to stop people from wealthy nations from investing on known junk investments. Reminder: your boy Maduro personally paid into Trump's inauguration.
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Jan 27, 2019 20:27
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Truga posted:I dunno man it reads kinda like the way norway does things and they seem to be doing relatively OK. It's not full communism now, but i'll take not-socialism over starving people. Priorities, you know. Proposal 497 of the Popular Will party platform outlines an intention to privatize the state oil company. quote:Following are three proposals: restructuring PDVSA as part of the hydrocarbons industry, increase the private participation in the industry and create a independent regulatory body of the National Executive. Even if "increase the private participation in the industry" only means a partial privatization, or some kind of public-private partnership, this will be starving oil revenues from the government which rightfully belong to the people. fishmech posted:Why do you keep running away from your arguments to whine about everyone except the people responsible for collapsing the Venezuelan economy? The sanctions were put in place to punish the people looting the population of Venezuela, and then later on to stop people from wealthy nations from investing on known junk investments. So your argument is that the sanctions were actually put in place to protect investors?
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Jan 27, 2019 20:28
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Full privatization would be better than what is currently happening in Venezeula. Also full privatization won't happen. This isn't loving Shadowrun.
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Jan 27, 2019 20:29
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Randarkman posted:Full privatization would be better than what is currently happening in Venezeula. Do you realize how many public institutions have been fully privatized across the world over the last few decades? Where do you think the inspiration for Shadowrun came from in the first place?
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Jan 27, 2019 20:31
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Truga posted:Wouldn't the correct way to fix CLAP then be to buy food on the cheap from real companies instead of just shutting it down though? The most likely outcome with CLAP would be that the entire current corruption scheme is shut down completely, because it is fundamentally down to its beaurocratic core a system that is used as an enrichment scheme for an authoritarian strongman (and a way to consolidate power among a loyalist base). Ideally you would want to replace it with a new system intended to do what you are describing, but this time as an actual social welfare system rather than a funnel scheme. Venezuela will probably have little in the way of ability to maintain much social distribution projects, though. It would have to start with international food aid.
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Jan 27, 2019 20:32
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:
That is literally the purpose of the US federal regulators blocking investments outside of constrained circumstances wih the latest rules, on top of ongoing seizing of embezzled assets by those with ties to the VZ government. Pener Kropoopkin posted:Where do you think the inspiration for Shadowrun came from in the first place? A moron reading The Shockwave Rider and missing half the point.
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Jan 27, 2019 20:33
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fishmech posted:That is literally the purpose of the US federal regulators blocking investments outside of constrained circumstances wih the latest rules, on top of ongoing seizing of embezzled assets by those with ties to the VZ government. Well you should read the executive order because that's not the reason given. The Trump administration cites concern about "human rights abuses" and the "illlegimate elections" which is also certainly a lie. The sanctions were put in place to destabilize the government for the purposes of regime change.
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Jan 27, 2019 20:35
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Well you should read the executive order because that's not the reason given. The Trump administration cites concern about "human rights abuses" and the "illlegimate elections" which is also certainly a lie. Your attempts to deflect are failures as always. But there are also massive human rights abuses and illegal elections, what with the entire unauthorized replacement of the legislature with a second legislature. The government destabilized itself by being massively corrupt and starving the people for years prior dear friend, so once again: unless you can find proof VZ did all this stuff on the US' orders it ain't the US' fault Maduro sucks at running a country. Cuba underwent far greater US pressure for over 50 years and never degenerated into the mess Venezuela is now. But of course, Cuba is run by people with interest in running socialism instead of interest hauling an extra billion offshore for their kids' vacation houses.
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Jan 27, 2019 20:41
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Ultimately, I feel the same as Chuck, it's extremely disheartening to have committed so much effort updating this thread for years, trying to keep people informed in a country that was becoming more and more isolated due to media persecution...Only to have Americans come in and say "Actually CLAP is good and you're racist". I mean, can't you guys see why Maduro would feel the need to tie social programs to anything. Can't you imagine that it is profitable to pretend to be socialist?
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Jan 27, 2019 20:45
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fishmech posted:Your attempts to deflect are failures as always. But there are also massive human rights abuses and illegal elections, what with the entire unauthorized replacement of the legislature with a second legislature. Cuba did have its own sort of arduous march in the 90s when it lost all of its trade partners in the COMECON. That Cuba survived is in no small part to the organizational power of the Cuban Communist party. Of course, the PSUV is no communist party, but certainly neither are any of the interests that you'd rather see take over in the country, whose immediate aims are to privatize as much as they can and return the government to the class rule of the well bred. Maduro certainly has played a bad hand badly, but at the same time that's not any kind of reason to pretend that American sanctions have any aim other than to achieve regime change in Venezuela. If you think that the sanctions are in any way good, or done with good intentions for the welfare of Venezuelans, then I've got a gold mine in the Orinoco to sell you.
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Jan 27, 2019 20:45
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fnox posted:Ultimately, I feel the same as Chuck, it's extremely disheartening to have committed so much effort updating this thread for years, trying to keep people informed in a country that was becoming more and more isolated due to media persecution...Only to have Americans come in and say "Actually CLAP is good and you're racist". This is also not an excuse for the kind of positive arguments which are now being made, for why privatizing state companies is actually good, and that these welfare systems have to be dismantled. Surely these systems could be reformed through some kind of anti-corruption campaign, but I think some posters (not implying you are) are already rationalizing in their minds why it's good that the social welfare system will be completely dismantled and replaced with nothing.
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Jan 27, 2019 20:48
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I would rather just stay up with current events and keep the endless socialism arguments in the other threads, thanks.
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Jan 27, 2019 20:49
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Cuba did have its own sort of arduous march in the 90s when it lost all of its trade partners in the COMECON. That Cuba survived is in no small part to the organizational power of the Cuban Communist party. Of course, the PSUV is no communist party, but certainly neither are any of the interests that you'd rather see take over in the country, whose immediate aims are to privatize as much as they can and return the government to the class rule of the well bred. Please stop talking about the ghosts of old propaganda who you think make up the legislature elected by the people of Venenzuela. Most of the parties in opposition to the PSUV would be left wing, and most importantly none of them have looted billions from the country over the past couple of years. Also Cuba during the 90s maintained much greater food security for the population. The sanctions are to punish the looting, and to keep people off of by now known to be fraudulent investment offers from the country. No amount of your attempting to talk up the guy who paid money to Trump's inauguration will change that.
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Jan 27, 2019 20:49
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fnox posted:Ultimately, I feel the same as Chuck, it's extremely disheartening to have committed so much effort updating this thread for years, trying to keep people informed in a country that was becoming more and more isolated due to media persecution...Only to have Americans come in and say "Actually CLAP is good and you're racist". Go to QCS and petition for Chuck to be given idiotking powers in this thread so he can probate the people who are clearly just posting in ignorant bad faith. I would hate to see this thread permanently wallow in this current state of discourse.
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Jan 27, 2019 20:50
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fishmech posted:Please stop talking about the ghosts of old propaganda who you think make up the legislature elected by the people of Venenzuela. Most of the parties in opposition to the PSUV would be left wing, and most importantly none of them have looted billions from the country over the past couple of years. Also Cuba during the 90s maintained much greater food security for the population. The Trump administration doesn't give a poo poo about looting, and they know that Venezuelan oil production was continuing to bring in debt servicing revenues, which is why the sanctions were put into place. The nominally left wing parties in opposition to PSUV don't have to loot from the country, because their leaders already control the private sector. It's also presumptuous to treat the opposition as some sort of unified bloc, when the DUR can't even maintain a majority in the National Assembly. Other parties may be opposed to the PSUV, but that doesn't necessarily make them in league with Guaido.
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Jan 27, 2019 20:56
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fnox posted:Can't you imagine that it is profitable to pretend to be socialist? Regarding that particular part with CLAP: it's hardly a new revelation that the entire program is a corruption scheme. There was even decent international reporting on it as early as 2016. The "shock doctrine" line today, in 2019, for criticism of CLAP's current incarnation, has comical appearances of revisionism. Pener Kropoopkin posted:Surely these systems could be reformed through some kind of anti-corruption campaign, but I think some posters (not implying you are) are already rationalizing in their minds why it's good that the social welfare system will be completely dismantled and replaced with nothing. What is actually happening is that people are assuming Venezuela is already so close to complete collapse that an actual social welfare system (as opposed to something that is just being conveniently rationalized AS a social welfare system to reflexively defend Maduro) will be hard to legitimately establish, and that it will be good to have a social welfare system that doesn't tremendously harm Venezuela's productivity in order to funnel power and money to a dominant political group.
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Jan 27, 2019 20:59
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The Trump administration doesn't give a poo poo about looting, and they know that Venezuelan oil production was continuing to bring in debt servicing revenues, which is why the sanctions were put into place. The nominally left wing parties in opposition to PSUV don't have to loot from the country, because their leaders already control the private sector. It's also presumptuous to treat the opposition as some sort of unified bloc, when the DUR can't even maintain a majority in the National Assembly. Other parties may be opposed to the PSUV, but that doesn't necessarily make them in league with Guaido. Actually they do give a poo poo about it. Because Venezuela shooting itself in the head repeatedly is bad for business all over the hemisphere. Or are you making some bizarre claim that the US wants to have all the US allies in South America bogged down with the 3 million plus refugees and growing and the oil sold steadily plummeting? Because that really doesn't sound like what anyone wants from Venezuela. Plus you have no room to talk about presumption when you're leaping all over the field to attempt to defend Maduro via making up bullshit about everyone else in Venezuela.
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Jan 27, 2019 21:01
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it's true, it is the USA's burden to save Venezuelans (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 27, 2019 21:03
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By the way, anyone mentioning that the right-wing coup leader is a member of "socialist international" can gently caress right off. Tony Blair was a member of the socialist international (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 27, 2019 21:04
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Chomskyan posted:By the way, anyone mentioning that the right-wing coup leader is a member of "socialist international" can gently caress right off. Tony Blair was a member of the socialist international There is literally no right wing coup leader involved here, besides Maduro.
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Jan 27, 2019 21:06
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I'd rather care less about the profit-incentivized reasons why companies concern themselves with Venezuelan stability, and more about humanitarian concern for Venezuelan people. I mean, I know that there were asymmetrical reasons why international business interests got increasingly fraught about Maduro, but this is just because he couldn't be a competent dictator if he was going to be a dictator. "Stability" works out the same for them in a liberal democracy or in a brutal dictatorship. Saudi Arabia has managed to be appealingly "stable" to them for many quarters.
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Jan 27, 2019 21:06
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uninterrupted posted:I love how the right wing coup supporters in this thread use "um, stop talking about the US (which is publicly orchestrating the coup and therefore completely legitimate to metion)" to deflect from their lovely politics. Why do you support Guaido's plan to cut food programs for the poor and public housing? Is starving people only bad when it happens under Maduro? Actually my dude the IMF will force austerity programs that will revitalize their economy and with the debt restructuring that the financial papers are salivating over it surely will all result in an improved outcome for everyone. Truly bringing freedom and free market to the people is the path forward here in lol Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Jan 27, 2019 |
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Jan 27, 2019 21:06
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Can someone explain why Donald J. Trump, Elliot Abrams, & Mike Pompeo are so concerned about the blight of the Venezuelan people?
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Jan 27, 2019 21:07
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fishmech posted:There is literally no right wing coup leader involved here, besides Maduro. Shut up fishmech
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Jan 27, 2019 21:07
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it's like in that Paradox game Victoria II where a country defaults on its loan to you so you get a cassus belli to invade it but really you made it default via your economic policies just to force the cassus belli because you want its stuff https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-22/venezuela-s-guaido-says-opposition-seeks-financing-debt-relief quote:Debt investors have begun to band together to demand more than $9 billion in overdue bond payments. The urgency increased after Houston-based ConocoPhillips and Canadian gold miner Crystallex International Corp. managed to wring $1 billion out of the government by threatening to lay claim to Venezuela’s assets abroad.
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Jan 27, 2019 21:10
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Presenting Nipples posted:Can someone explain why Donald J. Trump, Elliot Abrams, & Mike Pompeo are so concerned about the blight of the Venezuelan people? It should be pretty obvious why they care about Maduro.
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Jan 27, 2019 21:11
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Presenting Nipples posted:Can someone explain why Donald J. Trump, Elliot Abrams, & Mike Pompeo are so concerned about the blight of the Venezuelan people? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km0_vOE_2XE
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Jan 27, 2019 21:12
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fishmech posted:It should be pretty obvious why they care about Maduro. Please enlighten me
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Jan 27, 2019 21:12
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Presenting Nipples posted:Please enlighten me You're the one who called him the blight of the Venezuelan people, so you already know.
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Jan 27, 2019 21:13
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Every time information is provided refuting one argument, you move to a different one that was already addressed. The constant shifting of rhetorical focus from y'all is getting really old.
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Jan 27, 2019 21:14
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The truth is Donald Trump probably has zero idea what his own administration is doing wrt Venezuela lol. What a time to be alive
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Jan 27, 2019 21:15
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fishmech posted:You're the one who called him the blight of the Venezuelan people, so you already know. Nah you are the expert clearly. What do you perceive to be motivating the trump admin’s actions in Venezuela?
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Jan 27, 2019 21:17
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