|
while both of them treat women pretty loving bad Shield Hero is absolutely worse than Goblin Slayer because in Goblin Slayer all of the gratuitous horrible stuff that happens to women is portrayed as being bad and something that is supposed to make the audience hate goblins and like the guy who kills them, whereas in Shield Hero from what I understand the hero sells women into sex slavery and does hosed up things to them and we're supposed to like him and think that it's good that he did that ultimately it boils down to a contest between "women as disposable plot devices who are raped and murdered constantly in order to make the audience hate the villains and root for the hero to stop them and also maybe because the author has some kind of fetish for it" and "women are evil monsters and the audience is supposed to root for the hero as he enslaves them and does all sorts of other horrible poo poo to them", where both are bad but the second one is definitely worse
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 09:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 13:29 |
|
|
It's pretty hosed up how the "biggest" animes last half year has been an anime trivializing rape and one saying the rape accused are the real victims. Especially in the current political climate it's particularly gross.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 09:14
|
|
|
That is not the message at all. We KNOW he was falsely accused. There is no doubt in this case. It also doesn't state that this is the case for everyone who has been accused. Shield Hero has a lot of problems, but that is not one of the messages it preaches.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 09:31
|
|
|
Fear of being falsely accused, either maliciously or by mistake, is pretty great in Japan with groping being such a problem.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 10:18
|
|
|
Mulderman posted:That is not the message at all. Media dealing with false accusations like this still carries a narrative and the most progressive thing about the show is that the woman was believed. Meanwhile Brett Kavanaugh was made Associate Justice of the Supreme Court because "if he can fall for something like this, than any of us can." Maybe that's the Shield Hero's problem, he didn't talk about how much he loved beer.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 10:52
|
|
|
I also don’t see the problem with that plot point, to be honest. It would be different if the show was trying to portray false rape accusations as a common thing, but it isn’t. One woman does it one time, and for reasons that are clearly explained; she wanted to rob him and cover her tracks. All that says is that this specific character is evil.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 11:46
|
|
|
I'm not saying it's not a issue. It most certainly is. But poo poo happening in real life doesn't mean you cannot tell a story where the protagonist is actually innocent of the crime. (Even if said story is poo poo) It would be a whole different ball game if we the audience didn't know if Shield Hero was innocent or not. Or if there was an underlying story where all the women in this series accuse men of rape. But this is a pretty clear cut case. And a single instance of it happening. All I'm saying is that this is a poo poo series and there is no shortage of flaws to make fun of. So we don't have to add on top of that.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 11:48
|
|
|
Besides that part though, I felt like Shield Hero was mostly inoffensively mediocre, but I only read the manga. I guess I could say the same about Goblin Slayer "besides the rape", but the rape is kind of a trigger for me, so it's not as easy to dismiss.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 11:54
|
|
|
Imo if a moment in a story is an important part of a character's arc it's not unfair to act like it's trying to say something or deliver some kind of societal message
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 12:15
|
|
|
After the rape accusation we learn that: - the society is a 'matriarchy' - 'even an attempted assault carries the death penalty' - victims are believed without trial In addition evidence is fabricated to prove Naofumi's guilt, and those who believe Myne's story are presented in a very negative light. It is a painfully obvious attempt at satire with the inescapable message that rape victims are believed too much.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 12:29
|
|
|
it was pitched to me as "isekai where everyone hates the main character". I thought maybe that the reason the setup for this was him being falsely accused of rape was simply because the author couldn't think of anything else which would result in universal hatred. It doesn't necessarily have to come from a place of the author hating women or anything. I though "maybe it's just a plot point that comes across as kind of insensitive, but wasn't written out of any kind of desire to send a message" i was loving wrong though, holy poo poo let's list off some poo poo that happens in shield hero: the hero buys female slaves. he keeps them, too, this isn't the usual "oh I bought you just to free you but now you're so grateful that you follow me around anyway" poo poo. dude has slaves. hero forces a woman to legally change her name to "Bitch" a guy starts seeing all women as pigs and hearing their voices as oinking sounds a woman sells another woman into sex slavery because she thinks a guy she likes is more attracted to her
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 12:32
|
|
|
Bakeneko posted:I also don’t see the problem with that plot point, to be honest. Taken in isolation, that plot point is fine. Poorly handled, since he didn't take part in any conduct that could be misconstrued - all it'd take is the innkeeper's testimony that he did not take a drink to blow a massive hole in her story, for example - and so the plot entirely rests upon the plausibility of her word simply being taken for granted, which in itself says a lot and makes the point considerably less fine. I think she's the princess or something, since the OP shows her leaning on the throne, and the first episode strongly hints that she is. However, the authorial intent is either very clear, or incredibly hamfistedly flawed, by the mention of the matriarchal society (wait it's a matriarchal society but we've not seen any women in positions of authority nor as business owners???)/death penalty for attempted assault, as it is very clearly painting both of those things as negatives. That and uh, immediately calling the princess in the book 'slutty'. Yeah, I was trying to break this down from the least problematic point of view, but the flaws are pretty deeply rooted.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 14:34
|
|
|
Yeah, I think the rape accusation could work if played right, but that'd be a tightrope. However, there's a bunch of problems with this this version. 1) ALL of the evidence is contrived. Not a single thing makes sense in Co text of what we saw so either everyone is in on it to some extent or the people of this world are idiotically gullible. It's a real bad look either way. 2) There was only one female voice in the room, and it was Myne. Literally everyone else involved was male, from the other heroes to the guards to obviously the king. This is important because it makes the one woman in the room representative of all women, and that woman is a conniving bitch. 3) There's not a single dissenting voice besides Naofumi himself. Even if you believe all of the bullshit evidence set forth, we're talking about one of the 4 heroes of legend here, the people you've been slobbering over for hundreds of years. Yet everyone's immediately angling to burn him at the stake. Either the audience response is contrived to support his intended plot, or the author actually thinks that low of society in that they'll believe any bullshit they're fed. Goes right back to the mysogynistic bias.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 15:27
|
|
|
gonna be real, if you're a dude and the plot hook of your story is "what if the male protagonist is falsely accused of rape", that mostly just raises a lot of red flags
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 15:40
|
|
|
I honestly think that any underlying message or themes people can take away from this story are there purely by coincidence. Because if that wasn't the case, it would amount to something, there'd be a point. But this is Shield Hero! A series where the creepy slave trader is part of the supporting cast groupshot in the intro. Clearly little to no thought has been put into this sludge of a series. And I highly doubt the authors capability to write a story with an underlying message. He wanted his edgy introduction didn't think this poo poo through and now we ended up with a series that's only famous due to worth of mouth from people slapping their own theories etc on it. And frankly... I get it. I get why the main discussion regarding this series are about a minor part of the first episode because gently caress me... This series gives us very little to talk about otherwise.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 15:43
|
|
|
Blunderman.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 15:57
|
|
|
At least Death March was inoffensive.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 16:06
|
|
|
Mordaedil posted:At least Death March was inoffensive. Didn't that also have an underaged slave harem?
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 16:14
|
|
|
Detective Blunderman lets another murderer go slipping into the night because of his tragic inability to grok the concept of causality, the tortured hero slumps back to HQ empty handed yet again...
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 16:16
|
|
|
Body Armour Hero
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 16:17
|
|
|
ViggyNash posted:Even if you believe all of the bullshit evidence set forth, we're talking about one of the 4 heroes of legend here, the people you've been slobbering over for hundreds of years. to give incredibly minimal credit where it is due, apparently at some point they show that the legend actually predicts that the shield hero is going to be an evil rear end in a top hat that everyone is gonna have to just put up with if they want to live, which is maybe part of why they were inclined to believe that was a rapist
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 16:17
|
|
|
Detective Blunderman unable to or refuses to open the door to Police Headquarters because there is no way to prove that rotating the handle will allow the door to open, to his poorly stricken mind. A cold rain starts....
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 16:19
|
|
|
Helmet Hero. Every night he curses Headbutt Hero to sleep, wishing that the man was never brought into the world so that he, too, might be allowed by the laws of reality to wield the ancient power of the headbutt.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 16:21
|
|
|
Lurking Haro posted:
Part of me wants to confirm since the info came from the wiki and ANN and translations tend to be weird in a lot of places, but God do I really not want to loving visit the tropes page or the wiki for this again. Shield Hero...Yeah I think everything that could be said about the series has been. Some thoughts though are that if the author wanted to make Slavery seem wrong or at the very least make Naofumi actually more sympathetic and not like a loving creepy slavery apologist, he'd had have done the same thing as the Death March guy(which had issues of its own) and released her(There's actually a reason why not to do this and it's so loving stupid and contrived) or at least take the loving shackles off or something. Someone mentioned something interesting about Raphtalias age and how it manipulates you into feeling bad for her and her situation by introducing her as a cute child to trigger your sympathy senses in a way that her being an adult or even male wouldn't have. The random aging up was obviously for romancing purposes and theres6 been much bullshit tripping mental gymnastics and internal logic to justify this as not loving creepy. The whole thing with Firo and Melty is probably one of the worse things though. cock hero flux posted:to give incredibly minimal credit where it is due, apparently at some point they show that the legend actually predicts that the shield hero is going to be an evil rear end in a top hat that everyone is gonna have to just put up with if they want to live, which is maybe part of why they were inclined to believe that was a rapist Previous Shield Hero treated Beastkin like actual people which made the population "feel a certain type of way" about him hence the positions hatred. doomrider7 fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Jan 28, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 16:21
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:Didn't that also have an underaged slave harem? Yeah and yet it still managed to come off as less offensive somehow if I recall since he at least took off the slave brands first real chance he got(only exceptions are due to curses) and the MC while bland at least comes off as a decent human being.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 16:26
|
|
|
Detective Blunderman losing all grasp of relationships as his sanity unravels, lying faceup in the pavement as the rainwater begins to pour into his lungs. Is this the end of Dear Detective Blunderman, faithful readers? Next Issue: The Return Of Blunderman.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 16:28
|
|
|
is that your billy bat
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 16:35
|
|
|
Mulderman posted:I honestly think that any underlying message or themes people can take away from this story are there purely by coincidence.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 16:44
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield Hero
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 16:45
|
|
|
So is it fair to call the first place he got summoned to false rape accusation kingdom? Because Jesus, also he bought a child.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 16:52
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:I disagree with the idea that it's a minor part of the show. It's the inciting incident that turns Naofumi from an awkward but kind-hearted nerd into an embittered rear end in a top hat who's willing to buy slaves. I also think that the misogyny is calculated and deliberate given how it's used to justify why Naofumi now hates all women. It's a classic 'nice guy' narrative. Some amazing takes that I stole from Tropes forum. quote:It's worth noting the pattern that slavery-tolerant narratives in these sort of stories are usually part of. Normally, they will be featured in stories that are general power-fantasies, where the main character is (or ascends to become) an unstoppable supreme being who nobody is willing or able to gainsay. Having the protagonist's love interests (and isn't it interesting how it's almost always just women?) be his literal slaves is an extension of that that makes it clear what kind of power fantasy this is - one of absolute and total control which you will, of course, exercise ethically (but not actually, meaningfully relinquish) because you are a Good Guy. quote:I've also seen it framed as the fantasy of "the girl who has no choice but to spend time with me, and therefore will eventually see how good I am deep down." As opposed to other girls who you might actually have to try to show your good side to, and who might reject you before you get a chance. This sort of logic also applies to childhood friends or little sister type love interests. quote:What Iaculus, Clarste and others said. The Isekai genre uses tortured reasoning and emotional appeals to have its protagonists get away with awful poo poo all the time, and Shield Hero is no different. If you're a young reader who's not used to this sort of narrative, you might actually believe that Naofumi is an ok guy because he treats his slave nicely - in spite of the times where he actually literally uses the slave collars around the neck of his slaves, which cause them immense pain when they disobey him. I find that "somehow" part in the last one to be kind of depressing given the idea that worse than Shield Hero is possible. Like, YIKES.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 17:08
|
|
|
doomrider7 posted:I find that "somehow" part in the last one to be kind of depressing given the idea that worse than Shield Hero is possible. Like, YIKES. Re:Monster has a protagonist isekai'd into a goblin. He does the only sensible thing and proceeds to build rape farms.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 17:57
|
|
|
LibrarianCroaker posted:Re:Monster has a protagonist isekai'd into a goblin. He does the only sensible thing and proceeds to build rape farms. Yeah I'm aware of that one. I'm still trying to mentally process how that got loving made. As an aside, I recently started reading Faraway Paladin and the manga about the old retired knight going on his retirement travels(Bard Leon). Just based on the two chapters for the former and one for the latter that I've read, I can already safely say they're two of the best damned things out there in term of fantasy stuff. Ditto for Undead Adventurer which had new chapter recently.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 18:39
|
|
|
400 years of no recorded slavery does funny things to ones perspective on slavery.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 18:54
|
|
|
Mordaedil posted:400 years of no recorded slavery does funny things to ones perspective on slavery. Uh, who are you talking about here?
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 18:57
|
|
|
Japan's history on slavery? Maybe I am misunderstanding it, I don't remember my high school education on the subject.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 19:35
|
|
|
Mordaedil posted:Japan's history on slavery? Maybe I am misunderstanding it, I don't remember my high school education on the subject. Yeah, there's some elderly Korean women who might dispute that one.
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 19:39
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:Didn't that also have an underaged slave harem? At the very least it justified it via "yeah slavery is a societal thing, I'd like to do something about it, but at the moment I'm a complete nobody so just railing against it would be ineffectual, I'll just keep them safe for now". For the rest of the show's run, that point is never revisited and they never mention any plans nor intentions to change this. So at least they were on the "slavery bad", even if they failed to go into "stop slavery".
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 19:49
|
|
|
Regarding the slave stuff, I think the thing that disgusts me the most about it is the typical "protagonist as a good person because they treat their slave kindly." It's just so gross. Literally treating a person like a pet, and like they're doing them a favor because they were fortunate enough to not be a slave themselves (and that the favor never extends to actually, you know, freeing them). The thing that disgusts me second most is that there is frequently a point, presumably to help justify it, where the slave decides to keep being slave. So, you see, it isn't that the protagonist is forcing them! They want it! (You might also recognize this particular thing from Harry Potter, lol) DisDisDis posted:i haven't seen shield hero, how hosed up is it compared to other recent gross anime like goblin slayer and maid in abyss? Shield Hero is considerably worse than Goblin Slayer. While both are bad, Goblin Slayer is "only" guilty of using rape for shock value 2 or 3 times, and is otherwise a fairly unremarkable fantasy (regular fantasy, not isekai) series. Unless it was added by the anime (or removed from the manga, which is the only version I saw), I'm not quite sure where all this "it is full of rape" stuff is coming from. That being said, it's not exactly good enough to warrant much effort being defended as merely "pretty bad." Rape as shock value is bad enough that it's pretty disqualifying even if it only happens once or twice. With Shield Hero, on the other hand, it is obvious that the author genuinely hates women. I do not remember seeing not a single major female character who is portrayed positively and is not a literal child and slave (though I only read up until some time after the slave child says she wants to stay his slave  ). You can just tell from the tone of the writing that there's a lot of actual anger simmering beneath the surface.
Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Jan 28, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 20:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 13:29 |
|
|
Sharkopath posted:Detective Blunderman losing all grasp of relationships as his sanity unravels, lying faceup in the pavement as the rainwater begins to pour into his lungs. A story about someone who fucks up so much they gently caress up dying sounds amazing. When can I expect the Blunderman anime?
|
|
#
?
Jan 28, 2019 20:28
|
|
