dwarf74 posted:Higher level cards for base classes aren't spoilers. Wasn't expecting it being a ranged attack...I'll check out the FAQs as to what the logic for it is. Thanks! (also I wasn't sure about the spoiler policy and I've preferred to go "better safe than sorry"). EDIT2: This is the latest FAQs https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1897763/official-faq-game-no-rules-questions-please and there is a Cragheart section, just not by name (there is the class symbol instead) so it doesn't come up with a quick Find search. Just for the sake of clarity: Clear the Way (Card 132) posted:The top attacks are considered ranged attacks. Also, the card specifies which targets may be affected (all adjacent targets) so Add Target applied to the attack would not grant any additional targets. That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Jan 25, 2019 |
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Jan 25, 2019 16:05
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Just scroll down to the Cragheart class section on the BGG FAQ. I don't think you can search through spoiler blocks there and they do spoiler tag all the class-specific stuff, even for the starting classes. And the class sections are also by symbol, not name, so searching for Cragheart won't find it.
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Jan 25, 2019 16:18
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Yeah, I agree it's kind of lame - especially with how it fucks with Backup Ammo - but basically there's melee and ranged, and this is ranged. Because of that, I eventually stopped bringing this awesome card. (It's a perfectly fine card to house rule, imo, because what it's doing mechanically doesn't jibe with the flavor.)
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Jan 25, 2019 16:21
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Thanks for the directions guys! I'm a bit miffed that there is no explanation as to why these count as a ranged attack, since there is no range specified in the second part of the card, where the only attack action is. It kinda makes sense from a thematic POV (you're tossing a rock at fools, the rock is not the one doing the fighting) but it doesn't make sense from the mechanical RAW, as the first part of the card is not an attack in itself.
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Jan 25, 2019 16:29
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Because you place the obstacle within "Range 4" that makes it an Attack Action with a Range, which makes it a Ranged Attack.
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Jan 25, 2019 17:39
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Eh I mean, since actions are sequential and the two parts are on separate lines and everything, RAW the first action is "move an obstacle adjacent to you in an hex in Range4". Then as a separate action, "Attack2 (no range) every enemy adjacent to the obstacle". But ofc the RAI is clear (you throw a rock at someone), so I agree that it makes thematic sense for it to be Ranged. Unless I'm misinterpreting the rules - which is totally possible - an attack with no range is implied to be melee. If the fact that a range is present in the attack action makes it a Ranged attack, what about the Mindthief ability to force an enemy in RangeX to perform AttackY (not +Attack)? That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Jan 25, 2019 |
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Jan 25, 2019 17:47
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Yeah, it's not the clearest. Submissive Affliction isn't technically an attack action for the Mindthief, I think
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Jan 25, 2019 18:14
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Reik posted:Because you place the obstacle within "Range 4" that makes it an Attack Action with a Range, which makes it a Ranged Attack. Except you're not attacking within Range 4. You're moving an obstacle from adjacent to you to an empty space within Range 4. Then, separately and skippably, you're making an Attack against every enemy adjacent to that obstacle. Those enemies are (probably) at a range from you, but enemies being more than 1 space away from you doesn't make an attack a ranged attack (witness the Cragheart's own Unstable Upheaval which attacks enemies at range without being a ranged attack according to the FAQ). According to the rulebook, only attacks with an explicit Range X marker are ranged, and attacks without that Range X symbol are melee. I'm not saying you should ignore the FAQ or anything, but the ruling definitely does not follow the rules as written in the rulebook and is not consistent with other FAQ rulings mechanically. Zurai fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Jan 25, 2019 |
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Jan 25, 2019 19:08
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That Italian Guy posted:Eh I mean, since actions are sequential and the two parts are on separate lines and everything, RAW the first action is "move an obstacle adjacent to you in an hex in Range4". Then as a separate action, "Attack2 (no range) every enemy adjacent to the obstacle". I think the question is one of who is making the attack. For the Mindthief, you cause an enemy in Range X to make an attack. If it hits a target with Retaliate, it suffers that damage. If a Mindthief was adjacent to two Flame Demons and caused one to attack the other, the attack would not suffer disadvantage and would apply the retaliation damage to the attacking demon. For Clear the Way, you are making an attack via the rock, and things get more confusing. Would those flame demons try and fail to retaliate against the rock (ie the attack is via the rock in melee) or against the Cragheart, in which case the attack must count as ranged or you could trigger a range 2 retaliate while being 3 hexes away because your rock is adjacent? This ruling does imply that if you drop your rock on those demons when they are close, you can expect to take a lot of retaliation. Better wording on the card would have been helpful. In terms of display on the card, the problem is that the card does two things: move the rock to a space in range 4, and make attacks against all enemies adjacent to that same hex within range 4. The former event occurs even if the latter does not, but the latter depends upon the former. If the card repeated the range 4 designation for the attack, it adds to the confusion because while the attack is ranged from the Cragheart, it can be made against all enemies adjacent to the rock. (An ending "treat this attack as if made as a ranged attack by the Cragheart" would have helped.)
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Jan 25, 2019 19:36
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Narsham posted:in which case the attack must count as ranged or you could trigger a range 2 retaliate while being 3 hexes away because your rock is adjacent? You always trigger retaliation, it's just a matter of whether the retaliation can reach you. Whether Clear the Way counts as ranged or melee doesn't change how retaliation would affect the Cragheart. EDIT: I will again cite Unstable Upheaval, which in 2nd printing and onwards allows the Cragheart to make a melee attack against all enemies within 2 spaces of him as long as you consume Earth. It's not an area of effect attack, either. It just hits each enemy within range 2. Zurai fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Jan 25, 2019 |
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Jan 25, 2019 19:47
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Zurai posted:Except you're not attacking within Range 4. You're moving an obstacle from adjacent to you to an empty space within Range 4. Then, separately and skippably, you're making an Attack against every enemy adjacent to that obstacle. Those enemies are (probably) at a range from you, but enemies being more than 1 space away from you doesn't make an attack a ranged attack (witness the Cragheart's own Unstable Upheaval which attacks enemies at range without being a ranged attack according to the FAQ). According to the rulebook, only attacks with an explicit Range X marker are ranged, and attacks without that Range X symbol are melee. Think of it like how AoEs have a range, but the targets aren't all within that range, the range is just used to determine where the AoE hexes can be.
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Jan 25, 2019 19:58
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After a grueling 3-mission spree to retire the Eclipse, I managed to retire and unlock the Music Note and I'm really excited. We managed to hit prosperity 5 thanks to the retirements and some generous donations to the church (we're getting pretty close to maxing that thing out), which is handy for the three characters in the party that gained a level from that. Hilariously my new retirement goal for Music Note is to Kill twenty Elite monsters, which means that retirement is going to be ages away. I'm probably going to be playing her forever, so I'm pretty ok with it.
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Jan 27, 2019 20:10
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I don't have the rulebook nearby to check, does poison apply to all sources of damage? Specifically Retaliate.
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Jan 27, 2019 21:50
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Fashionable Jorts posted:I don't have the rulebook nearby to check, does poison apply to all sources of damage? Specifically Retaliate. No, poison just works on attacks (ie things that use the modifier deck).
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Jan 27, 2019 21:52
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Doctor Spaceman posted:No, poison just works on attacks (ie things that use the modifier deck). Dang. I guess that would make Music Notes' Echoing Aria extremely overpowered. Edit: I guess that is a spoiler? Fashionable Jorts fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Jan 27, 2019 |
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Jan 27, 2019 22:04
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I don't know what that is so I'm gonna guess you just spoiled me on something.
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Jan 27, 2019 22:12
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dwarf74 posted:I don't know what that is so I'm gonna guess you just spoiled me on something. You and me both, buddy   Also I now know which gender Music Note is (at least they are not too big of a spoiler, I guess).
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Jan 28, 2019 00:46
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Whenever we get to Music Note, I will probably have to describe them as "aria attacks" even if they aren't multi-hex/multi-target.
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Jan 28, 2019 17:17
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Fashionable Jorts posted:Edit: I guess that is a spoiler? OTOH, no ability cards of any level are spoilers for any of the 6 starting classes.
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Jan 28, 2019 18:45
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Scenario 4 seems like a bit of a difficulty spike. My group made it through just barely, but not without flat out cheating and re-pulling a monster card towards the end. Our group can only get together once every few weeks, and the prospect of having to redo a scenario just seems like too much of a waste of our rare gaming time. Specifically, having cultists that summon skeletons in a 'kill all monsters' mission feels a little too RNG-heavy for my tastes. We had the 4 in the second room summon twice, and then when we got the last room partly cleared and most of us one or two turns from exhausting, we pulled another summon card and collectively agreed 'gently caress this' and just took the next card instead. I don't know, maybe it would be more bearable if there wasn't also that lower room with a couple of HP-sponge earth guys to fight. But as designed, it feels like a mission that's too reliant on luck going in your favor to even make it mathematically possible.
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Jan 28, 2019 19:05
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dwarf74 posted:Yeah, class abilities for any level of a locked class - including their names - are considered spoilers, along with the class name. Thats fair, I didn't even think that an ability name could definitely spoil what a class can do. BobTheJanitor posted:Scenario 4 seems like a bit of a difficulty spike. My group made it through just barely, but not without flat out cheating and re-pulling a monster card towards the end. Our group can only get together once every few weeks, and the prospect of having to redo a scenario just seems like too much of a waste of our rare gaming time. We had that same issue on my playthrough. I think that was the first time we lost a scenario, so the second time we bumped down the difficulty one level to breeze through it. There are other missions and monsters later on in the game that can absolutely obliterate you if you draw a few bad monster cards in a row, and it's a bit frustrating..
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Jan 28, 2019 19:13
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Fashionable Jorts posted:Thats fair, I didn't even think that an ability name could definitely spoil what a class can do. BobTheJanitor posted:Scenario 4 seems like a bit of a difficulty spike. My group made it through just barely, but not without flat out cheating and re-pulling a monster card towards the end. Our group can only get together once every few weeks, and the prospect of having to redo a scenario just seems like too much of a waste of our rare gaming time. 
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Jan 28, 2019 19:32
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dwarf74 posted:We happened to beat that one on the first go, but yeah, some missions are very RNG-heavy. And for real, if you pull a mulligan, no board game police will come for you. Yeah same, regarding RNG we lost our first scenario significantly farther in because (spoilers for scenario 34) the dragon boss pulled 6 "special 2" summons within his first 8 rounds, and we were just totally overwhelmed. We also recently did a scenario refresh in the first scenario of the Into the Unknown community campaign after a few really unfortunate enemy card draws in the first few rounds. It happens!
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Jan 28, 2019 19:39
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We played that Scenario last week with a new group and I've managed to Clear the Way an obstacle I had spawned and already tossed in Room1 in the middle of the Archers+1 Cultist donut in Room2. I've Explosive Punch'd it the following round - with Eagle-eye Goggles - for a ton of damage. But yeah, stunning/spiking summoners is a must. A Mindthief helps a lot against cultists; ours went invisible and rushed to the end of the room, taking care of the 2 back cultists with a little help. They still managed to Summon 2 skeletons with maybe 3 activations between all of them 
That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Jan 28, 2019 |
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Jan 28, 2019 19:40
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BobTheJanitor posted:Specifically, having cultists that summon skeletons in a 'kill all monsters' mission feels a little too RNG-heavy for my tastes. With that kind of situation you reduce the randomness by killing them. Cultists and other similar summoners are high priority targets and burning cards to stun or execute can be a good option.
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Jan 28, 2019 20:48
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Doctor Spaceman posted:With that kind of situation you reduce the randomness by killing them. Cultists and other similar summoners are high priority targets and burning cards to stun or execute can be a good option.
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Jan 28, 2019 21:09
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Scenario 4 is the only one we've lost out of about 45 scenarios. We even play at +3 now (level 7) and have for the past 15 or so.
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Jan 28, 2019 21:45
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dwarf74 posted:oozes will all kill themselves. This is not true because they can heal and reshuffle without splitting (and thus without self-damaging). Within the time limits of character endurance there is no guarantee at all that oozes will self-destruct. Worse, this dynamic makes them even more swingy than other summoner types. The gap between worst case and best case ooze card sequences is gigantic.
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Jan 28, 2019 21:56
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Doctor Spaceman posted:With that kind of situation you reduce the randomness by killing them. Cultists and other similar summoners are high priority targets and burning cards to stun or execute can be a good option. Yeah, we know that now. But going into it for the first time with no knowledge, it was pretty rough. Especially with the way that first room is laid out. We have 4 players, so we had 4 cultists to deal with, plus the line of archers in the middle of the room. That's a pretty brutal introduction. Would have been nicer to have less of a steep learning curve for the first time you meet them, so you can figure out that they're a high priority target before they drop four extra monsters in your lap.
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Jan 28, 2019 22:08
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Corbeau posted:This is not true because they can heal and reshuffle without splitting (and thus without self-damaging). Within the time limits of character endurance there is no guarantee at all that oozes will self-destruct. Worse, this dynamic makes them even more swingy than other summoner types. The gap between worst case and best case ooze card sequences is gigantic. One case where you have to do this is (solo scenario spoiler) the Cragheart's solo scenario, where this is literally the only way to win. Barricade off the slimes, and handle everything else while stalling out their death clocks. This RNG element is awful, and it makes it a horrible scenario, fwiw.
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Jan 28, 2019 22:09
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So uh. I'm in an interesting situation. I got my parents really, really into boardgaming. Like it started with light poo poo like Code Names, then Carcassone, then they got the bug hard and we've been doing Suburbia, Concordia, Tzolk'in and both seasons of Pandemic Legacy. Like once a month my girlfriend and I visit and we spend a weekend day drinking and my mom and I cook and we play for like 10 hours. It owns and I'm very lucky. My mom just bought Gloomhaven. They're smart people (we have 2+ PhD's between the four of us) but I'm loving intimidated. Any like, intros or advice on this? Maybe some play aids? This game kind of hurt my head the one time I played it and with two people North of 60 years old... Yeah. Help?
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Jan 29, 2019 04:17
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It's not that bad. My advice is to play the first scenario on Easy, and move everything to Gloomhaven Helper after playing with the cards for a few scenarios. You'll lose some, especially at first, but give it time. Otherwise, what parts are intimidating? We can try to help!
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Jan 29, 2019 05:04
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Read the OP. There's an official 25 minute video on how to play on YouTube. Watch it. Read the rules and accept that you will gently caress them up a lot. Let it rock and learn as you go. Ask questions in this thread. GLHF!
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Jan 29, 2019 05:06
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Xiahou Dun posted:Help? Follow Elephant Ambush's advice and then report to us what classes your parents pick and their general reaction to the game
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Jan 29, 2019 05:16
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Yeah I read the hell out of the OP, sorry I wasn't clear. The part I'm worried about is teaching the game. And no way in hell they're gonna watch a 20+ minute video for the rules. They're very smart people but, you know, old and set in their ways. I remember when I taught them Sushi Go! it was a solid 20 minutes of them angrily not listening to me before they understood how drafting works. I'm basically just looking for advice on how to get them to understand the game in the way that will be least frustrating to me. At a guess, my mom's gonna pick tinkerer or mindthief cause she likes buffing/she's already pretty psyched about psychic rat lady, my dad'll do spellweaver cause he's a nerd and it's fiddly and my girlfriend will do scoundrel because she's selfish and likes treasure. I'll probably do brute to round things out and also it looks simple enough that I can help the olds with their turns while still being effective. Does that sound insane? I'm just going based off of knowing people's habits. Like I'm sure they'll get it and have fun, but I foresee a loving rocky first 2 hours. Also, what's the consensus on the best app to manage overhead? The one in the OP is iOS adverse and I'd prefer to do this on my iPad to save table space, but I could run something on my laptop if that really is better.
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Jan 29, 2019 06:11
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That party would be fine, though if your mom goes with Mindthief, you might want to take the Tinkerer since that's the main healer/supporter. You could also take the Cragheart, since it's kind of a hybrid healer/tank/ranged attacker.
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Jan 29, 2019 06:16
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Fair, but I'm praying that doesn't happen cause I personally hate playing support characters.
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Jan 29, 2019 06:23
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Use Gloomhaven Helper. It owns. Watch the stupid 25 minute video. Ideally watch it together with the whole group. Your parents are going to hate this game if Sushi Go was too much for them.
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Jan 29, 2019 06:26
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Don't be too intimidated by the massive box - a lot of the stuff in there provides breadth more-so than depth - the game is complicated but it's not amazingly complicated, this isn't a mage knight-level brain-burner by any means. Expect to take point on monster movement yourself - without that your parents will mostly just be able to focus on what they do each turn. The app saves considerable amount of time and provides a super-helpful visual aid - you can see everyone's hit points, status conditions, and the initiative order all at a glance - I can't imagine playing without it at this point.
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Jan 29, 2019 06:37
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Elephant Ambush posted:Use Gloomhaven Helper. It owns. They are never going to watch that. Ever. I did, but it doesn't help. (Or well it obviously does since I know the rules better but you know what I mean.) They had initial problems but cottoned to it fine after a bit. It's more that they can be hard to come around to new ideas than they're actually not following things. Thanks to all the ideas! I'll see how this goes and probably be doing annoying questions. Elderly parents who like board games are a weird fate. On the one hand I've never been happier but on the other hand jesus christ the rules explanations.
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Jan 29, 2019 07:01
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