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Of all the disingenuous arguments thrown around in this thread, the idea that there is little to no race/class conflict in Latin America has to be the funniest
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Jan 30, 2019 02:12
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COMRADES posted:That whole link is one atrocity after another pretty much. Or was that the joke? It's not a joke. I think a lot of people are making comparisons to Iraq because they don't know anything about the the wider history of regime change. If they spent some effort looking at the actual history of Venezuela and Latin America, they would be able to make much clearer and stronger arguments. I would not point at any specific example because Venezuela's present circumstances are unique and different in their own ways COMRADES posted:It just kind of a ridiculous assertion on its face that there's 0 strife and everyone gets along considering the state of the country right now. I don't think you have understood my intentions. For example, if you'd read my post commenting on the CNN article on the last page, you should be able to notice some strong parallel in the situation I described to the Contras. I still don't think right-wing rebels forming bases over the border in Colombia is very likely, but when there are army deserters openly calling for arms and support to help overthrow Maduro, its hard not to notice parallels. If you want to make arguments against US intervention, your arguments are going to be much more relevant if you are using the example of Bolivia in 1971 or El Savador in 1983 than Yemen, 2016. My assertion was not that there is no strife, its that you cannot conceptualize it as ethnic. Of course there is ethnic tension in Venezuela with the Indians, but it is not likely to become politically relevant to this crisis.
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Jan 30, 2019 02:16
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Chomskyan posted:Of all the disingenuous arguments thrown around in this thread, the idea that there is little to no race/class conflict in Latin America has to be the funniest I'm trying to be overbearingly ingenuous Chomskyan. It's just that its hard to have a good conversation about these topics with someone who is just now learning who the Contras were.
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Jan 30, 2019 02:20
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Squalid posted:It's not a joke. I think a lot of people are making comparisons to Iraq because they don't know anything about the the wider history of regime change. If they spent some effort looking at the actual history of Venezuela and Latin America, they would be able to make much clearer and stronger arguments. I would not point at any specific example because Venezuela's present circumstances are unique and different in their own ways I’ll let the million dead Iraqis know they aren’t relevant!
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Jan 30, 2019 02:23
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Squalid posted:It's not a joke. I think a lot of people are making comparisons to Iraq because they don't know anything about the the wider history of regime change. If they spent some effort looking at the actual history of Venezuela and Latin America, they would be able to make much clearer and stronger arguments. I would not point at any specific example because Venezuela's present circumstances are unique and different in their own ways The reason why people are making comparisons to Iraq is because John Bolton is the National Security Advisor and is loudly pushing for an invasion. e: That's not to say that I think an Iraq-style invasion/failed occupation will result from this, mind you - just that the comparisons aren't coming out of nowhere.
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Jan 30, 2019 02:40
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Typo posted:to be fair I think everybody itt except possibly chomskyan (who also seems to think ppl in this thread are CIA agents so let's ignore him for now) agrees that maduros is bad it's just that they also think anyone who the US recognizes is Pinochet 2.0. So they kinda de facto default into support Maduros. Theres a bunch more posters in this thread than just chomsky who think the reports of Venezuelans crisis are being greatly exaggerated. gently caress, one of them kept saying the breadlines were propaganda and compared it to Iraq stories of babies being killed in hospitals. And if you don't believe the world consensus and all the NGOs that say the citizens are starving and there is mass corruption from Maduro, then nothing anyone can say is going to change your mind anyways.
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Jan 30, 2019 03:04
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patonthebach posted:Theres a bunch more posters in this thread than just chomsky who think the reports of Venezuelans crisis are being greatly exaggerated. gently caress, one of them kept saying the breadlines were propaganda and compared it to Iraq stories of babies being killed in hospitals. These folks have time and time again been perfectly fine with ignoring masses of people starving and I don't expect them to stop now.
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Jan 30, 2019 03:33
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patonthebach posted:Theres a bunch more posters in this thread than just chomsky who think the reports of Venezuelans crisis are being greatly exaggerated. gently caress, one of them kept saying the breadlines were propaganda and compared it to Iraq stories of babies being killed in hospitals. I’m pretty sure a majority do the global population, based on their governments, are recognizing Maduro and calling for negotiations. No one has called into question the depth of the crisis. What has been debated are the causes and if US making it worse (they are).
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Jan 30, 2019 03:40
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Presenting Nipples posted:No one has called into question the depth of the crisis. They're on the verge of creating more refugees than Syria, a country destroyed by neo fascist tyrants and genocidal zealots. I certainly hope that some sanctions that target individuals is enough to completely tank a country instead of wide scale death. If that's the truth, we're gonna see a pretty big change in warfare 2020 and onward. Zuhzuhzombie!! fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Jan 30, 2019 |
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Jan 30, 2019 03:51
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:They're creating more refugees than Syria, a country destroyed by neo fascist tyrants and genocidal zealots. And you think civil war is better than negotiations? Imagine how many more refugees there will be when war breaks out after John Bolton executes his master plan. Double bonus the US will lock them up when they get there.
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Jan 30, 2019 03:55
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No, but I'm not exactly sure why pointing out that the depth of the crisis being known means "civil war". A negotiated solution with Maduro stepping down would be great. But if that doesn't happen and the mass of Venezuelan opposition take up arms then time marches on. Bolton telling the opposition to nut up and make demands means as little to me as his Chinese and Russian counterpart telling Maduro to nut up and start sticking agitators against the wall.
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Jan 30, 2019 03:59
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:No, but I'm not exactly sure why pointing out that the depth of the crisis being known means "civil war". If you want negotiations then supporting the US-backed opposition is counter to that goal. Right now the US is goading war. You are the one denying that obvious reality affirmed again and again by the Trump administration.
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Jan 30, 2019 04:02
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I'm pretty sure Maduro is also goading a civil war by stealing every dollar in the country while people starve. Things he was doing well before Trump came into office.
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Jan 30, 2019 04:04
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:I'm pretty sure Maduro is also goading a civil war by stealing every dollar in the country while people starve. By that standard the global south would be completely justified in total war against the global north. But you can keep moving the goal posts.
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Jan 30, 2019 04:15
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Ah, yes, the goal posts of "a government is responsible for it's people". Do you also blame US Imperialism when you piss on your shoes at the urinal?
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Jan 30, 2019 04:18
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:Ah, yes, the goal posts of "a government is responsible for it's people". an interesting argument to make, given the current US Venezuela czar's stance on mutilating the genitals of suspected leftists to serve as a warning to others
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Jan 30, 2019 04:36
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:Ah, yes, the goal posts of "a government is responsible for it's people". Ouch, gonna need some some ice for that burn. Any government willing to hand over their sovereignty to another country, especially the US, is in fact not responsible for their people, but I’m sure you got another edgy response at the tip of your fingers.
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Jan 30, 2019 04:38
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Presenting Nipples posted:I’m pretty sure a majority do the global population, based on their governments, are recognizing Maduro and calling for negotiations. Tbf the majority of global population dont give a poo poo either way about venezuela lol
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Jan 30, 2019 04:38
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Squalid posted:I'm trying to be overbearingly ingenuous Chomskyan. It's just that its hard to have a good conversation about these topics with someone who is just now learning who the Contras were. don't be hurtful squalid, everyone knows the contras were a pair of elite dudes sent to fight alien-controlled commies in new zealand
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Jan 30, 2019 04:44
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Presenting Nipples posted:I’m pretty sure a majority do the global population, based on their governments, are recognizing Maduro and calling for negotiations. Three massively corrupt governments that have a long history of terrible, horrific treatment of their citizens like China Russia and North Korea support Maduro. Well that makes things easy to decide doesn't it.
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Jan 30, 2019 04:46
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patonthebach posted:Three massively corrupt governments that have a long history of terrible, horrific treatment of their citizens like China Russia and North Korea support Maduro. drat I wish I was this oblivious to the history of the US. It’s getting derailed at this point. I’d still like to hear the justification for Guaido’s actions. In particular: Guaidó coordinating with the Trump administration. Guaidó’s plan to privatize the oil industry. Guaidó pushing out elections for 9 months. Guaidó refusing to negotiate with Mexico and Uruguay.
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Jan 30, 2019 05:03
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patonthebach posted:Three massively corrupt governments that have a long history of terrible, horrific treatment of their citizens like China Russia and North Korea support Maduro. As opposed the massively corrupt government that have a long history of terrible, horrific treatment of *almost loving everyone* like the US who have instigated strife and suffering globally? None of the flack-back bullshit is good faith. Even if you blindfold your self to who is leading this assault and their extremely suspect self-interests, all of the US's actions are -counter- to the themes of food security, economic prosperity and self-determination.
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Jan 30, 2019 05:03
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Nah they aren't supporting Venezuela for ideological reasons (besides NK). Its naked imperalism to take Venezuela capital and the government selling out its populace for it.
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Jan 30, 2019 05:12
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Presenting Nipples posted:drat I wish I was this oblivious to the history of the US. I like how you absolutely can't comprehend the concept of "there are no good players here and it's up to the Venezuelan people".
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Jan 30, 2019 05:13
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Zuhzuhzombie!! posted:I like how you absolutely can't comprehend the concept of "there are no good players here and it's up to the Venezuelan people". But that.... is my position. I just don’t consider Donald Trump to be Venezuelan.
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Jan 30, 2019 05:22
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Presenting Nipples posted:But that.... is my position. I just don’t consider Donald Trump to be Venezuelan. But Putin and Xi Jinping are of course. Also, the PDVSA is currently effectively Russian and Chinese owned since it is so in hock to them. It's like proudly saying you own a house while your mortgage is underwater and the bank is in the process of repossessing it. Anyway, I repeat that I think that any plan kicked of by Bolton and Abrams will be shady, short sighted, and ultimately require pardons for all primary people involved like the last go round. We can't stop them from sticking their oar in though. We can just hope that they end up being ineffective and that their plan falls apart hilariously without causing any atrocities. I hope that the opposition and the protesters can pull it off this time, but it has been a escalating disaster for over half a decade now and it is the third wave of massive country wide protests. The last two couldn't crack it and despite the brouhaha Maduro seems to have a tight enough grip on the essential apparatus of the state to ride this out for now. Not seen any major cracks yet. When should we hear about what the supreme court has to say about the situation btw? Munin fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Jan 30, 2019 |
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Jan 30, 2019 06:21
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COMRADES posted:Also, which ones? This one? This one maybe? That whole link is one atrocity after another pretty much. Or was that the joke? During the 50s-60s-70s etc. the U.S. government had a lot of direct influence within Latin American military, through funding, training, ideological indoctrination, etc. The military also had links to the ruling class and aristocracy in these countries. These ties, and the comparative strength of the military and the ruling class as an institution and group, is a big part of what made these military dictatorships and civil wars possible. The situation is pretty different in Venezuela, where after 20 years of Chavez/Maduro government, the army is largely on the side of the current government, makes up a part of it, and as far as I know has not been trained in torture and killing of leftists by the U.S. If there's someone armed, trained, and unwilling to lose power, that you should be worried about here, it's probably the current government. (unless, of course, you think the current military, who is basically in power, can be swayed to murder the Chavista poor indiscriminately, which just begs the question of why you could possibly want to prop these people up in the first place) Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 10:18 on Jan 30, 2019 |
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Jan 30, 2019 09:58
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Whatever legitimacy the National Assembly may have previously had is gone now, they've clearly signed on full tilt with Elliot Hyper-Satan Abrams and made basically no effort to ensure they came out looking clean. A party interested in democratic process would never actually allow such a scum sucking ghoul to be declared their special envoy, like that wouldn't completely tank their domestic credibility to even be seen working with him, but they've made zero effort to walk that poo poo back even an inch. They're bought, it's over. You have all the information you need to be informed on the matter. You can loathe Maduros fat incompetent rear end all you want but the National Assembly clearly has no remaining interest in democracy. Hope for another revolution or something but these idiots got on the podium with a megaphone to declare their intent to destroy democracy and siphon the countries remaining resources to the united states.
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Jan 30, 2019 11:56
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One of my Venezuelan co-workers just shared this: https://twitter.com/NoticiasVenezue/status/1090418299651928065?s=20 
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Jan 30, 2019 12:22
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Big chungus absolute unit
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Jan 30, 2019 12:26
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Ulvino posted:One of my Venezuelan co-workers just shared this: I can't even imagine how sweaty Maduro must have been after they filmed that. And more generally, why is everyone in that military (?) unit overweight or obese? Also Maduro is huge, I had no idea. 1.90m against an average male height of probably around 1.71 (based on Colombian data). That's 6'3'' for those of you who still use the units of imperialist dogs. I always figured he was posing with shorter people to seem like a Big Man.
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Jan 30, 2019 12:51
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It's like he wants to become a Wolfenstein 3D boss. Trump is also well qualified to become one too. He's a 190cm tall fat gently caress. Negostrike fucked around with this message at 13:05 on Jan 30, 2019 |
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Jan 30, 2019 12:57
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Ulvino posted:One of my Venezuelan co-workers just shared this: hahahah
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Jan 30, 2019 12:58
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Ulvino posted:One of my Venezuelan co-workers just shared this: For a minute I thought he was super bullet-proofed but all that jiggling it pure fat.
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Jan 30, 2019 14:02
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Maduro is the boss at the end of every SNK game from the 80's.
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Jan 30, 2019 14:19
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BBC Mundo has an article in Spanish about the "Noches de Plomo" (roughly, "Lead nights" as in, the nights were full of lead from regime death squads). It's about police activity in some of Caracas' poorest areas last week that included, the article alleges, things like extrajudicial killings. Here's a quick excerpt from the article: quote:A 39-year-old municipal worker and father of two girls who lives in the Jose Felix Ribas barrio in Caracas said that that night was one of the worst in his life. It seems to me like so far this year we're seeing less colectivo armado (pro-government paramilitary group) activity, and more activity from the FAES (a unit of the National Police, which is featured in the BBC Mundo article above). It looks like the FAES is filling in for the colectivos. In previous protest waves, most of the policing was done by the National Guard and the National Bolivarian Police, and the colectivos would typically come out at night to do the really dirty work. The FAES were created in July 2017, and from what we've seen so far, I think that the government has a pretty clear role for them in mind vis a vis the protests. Blue Nation posted:For a minute I thought he was super bullet-proofed but all that jiggling it pure fat. I think that the dudes around Maduro are pretty big too, but they look normal-sized standing next to our large adult president.
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Jan 30, 2019 14:21
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Typical Pubbie posted:Maduro is the boss at the end of every SNK game from the 80's. But, luckily, Bolton is player 2 in defeating him!
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Jan 30, 2019 15:02
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patonthebach posted:Theres a bunch more posters in this thread than just chomsky who think the reports of Venezuelans crisis are being greatly exaggerated. gently caress, one of them kept saying the breadlines were propaganda and compared it to Iraq stories of babies being killed in hospitals. yeah there's also some other tankies itt that's true
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Jan 30, 2019 17:21
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Ulvino posted:One of my Venezuelan co-workers just shared this: how come he's so fat if his people are starving
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Jan 30, 2019 17:25
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Saladman posted:I can't even imagine how sweaty Maduro must have been after they filmed that. And more generally, why is everyone in that military (?) unit overweight or obese Hmm I wonder why that is. Half the country is starving but the ruling class is chunky? Odd. Maybe the leaders are super corrupt and stealing all the food and resources from the citizens. I don't know why the die hard commies areally defending this fact gently caress when he runs the country more like saddam than castro patonthebach fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Jan 30, 2019 |
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Jan 30, 2019 17:34
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