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I don't suppose you have any view on antifa you're dying to share?
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Jan 31, 2019 21:57
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Presenting Nipples posted:1. America could nationalize our oil industries and hand any profits back to Venezuela. You realize that corruption in Venezuela is deeply rooted and is aided and abetted by the oil industry. It isn't going to go away when Maduro is out of power and the industry is privatized. At the very least, Venezuela has some control over the selling of oil by it being nationalized. The US-backed opposition wants to explicitly take this power away from the Venezuelan government as they are on their knees. 1. Exxon-Mobile has concessions in Venezuela. A concession is essentially a privatized oil field, Venezuela has literally zero control over how or what Exxon-Mobile does with these concessions. However, thanks to Maduro selling off PDVSA in the form of concessions the "public" company is now just a mere shell. Guaido will basically have to beg to get these concessions back in order to reform PDVSA as a truly public company where Venezuela has control over its own oil again. Many of them (the ones that were given to Rosneft and Sinopec) are probably lost forever, Maduro mortgaged the future of Venezuelans for quick cash. 2. So economic colonialism is fake, got it. Guess we have no choice but to keep exploiting our privatized concession in Venezuela, drill baby drill. US colonization is already a thing in Venezuela, I was asking for a potential route to US decolonization (i.e. What should we do given we are colonizing Venezuela right now?) e: The irony of a "blue lives matter" argument coming from a Bernie supporter is not lost on me. 3. I'm saying that between 1960 and 2019 we discovered that humans are capable of seeing both class and race. Whiteness is a specific condition that confers privileges on people regardless of class, Venezuelans do not have white privilege and stating otherwise is absurd and racist. elgatofilo fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Jan 31, 2019 |
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Jan 31, 2019 22:03
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Since he refuses to address the other point I think I’d like to hear his views on police officers killing civilians and donating money (say a small amount like $500k) to Trump’s inauguration
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Jan 31, 2019 22:04
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Furia posted:Find me a quite were I said that. Go on, take your time didn't say you did, friend. just said that's the conclusion I'd draw from that statement. Maduro is not good people. Elliot Abrams is extremely, to a degree it is difficult to comprehend, a worse person, and he is the person who has been tasked with defining what, exactly, the US expects to get out of this relationship. if you're unfamiliar with the origins of the statement, they were from noted communist sympathizer Winston Churchill. a man who had no shortage of words on record about how Stalin was a monster all right-thinking people needed to oppose for a plethora of reasons. and asked about his sudden u-turn on the subject, came up with an excellent way to rephrase "have you SEEN the other guy."
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Jan 31, 2019 22:06
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Mozi posted:I don't suppose you have any view on antifa you're dying to share? I dont know about him, but I'm a big fan. Aparently venezuela security forces have been around to Guaidó relatives, saying that they have such a nice family it would be a shame if anything happened to them.classy.
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Jan 31, 2019 22:09
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Mozi posted:I don't suppose you have any view on antifa you're dying to share? as far I know, antifa haven't killed anyone and acted in self-defense at charlottesville when the alt-right started poo poo, so I don't have beef with them but if they start lynching trump supporters for wearing MAGA hats then yes, I would absolutely have a problem with them but I don't think they delegitimatize the anti-trump movement I'm not gonna respond anymore itt if you really want to discuss USPol we can go to the any of the numerous struggle sessions on US politics on these wonderful forums
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Jan 31, 2019 22:12
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:nah. but anyone who says "that didn't actually happen, our movement has no antagonism towards trump supporters" can absolutely be safely disregarded as a bad faith propagandist at that point. fair enough
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Jan 31, 2019 22:12
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elgatofilo posted:But I would point out that not a single American boot is on the ground yet. You're argument rest solely on this assumption it seems to me. Nobody has quite explained to me how Maduro steps down as is, it would be an amazing outcome if it could happen. Nor has there been much explanation of what this transition is going to do for people in Venezuela exactly, I'd like to know what exactly is the account of Gaido's popular support beyond being not Maduro is tbqh. The truth is you're right, there is a relationship of exploitation between the U.S. and Venezuela. This intervention is a perfect example, food aid in return for the U.S. getting what it wants, the bargaining power between the parties couldn't be any more clear. Any left interventionist scenario would have to include food & necessities going in through UN proxy or forcefully smuggled into the country to flood the market. You might say by doing that we're leaving Maduro as is, but a population that is starving and a population that doesn't need to worry about basic necessities are two very different things from the viewpoint of repression, imo. Of course, this is sort of all moot because the current global system starvation is just a natural result of bad governance, instead of a failure of global politics/economics.
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Jan 31, 2019 22:12
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elgatofilo posted:1. Exxon-Mobile has concessions in Venezuela. A concession is essentially a privatized oil field, Venezuela has literally zero control over how or what Exxon-Mobile does with these concessions. However, thanks to Maduro selling off PDVSA in the form of concessions the "public" company is now just a mere shell. Guaido will basically have to beg to get these concessions back in order to reform PDVSA as a truly public company where Venezuela has control over its own oil again. Many of them (the ones that were given to Rosneft and Sinopec) are probably lost forever, Maduro mortgaged the future of Venezuelans for quick cash. 1. Guaido's stated policy goal is to privatize. The Trump Doctrine is literally 'Take the Oil'. How will that help the situation? 2. We should do the exact opposite of what we are currently doing and push for negotiations. We should also pay reparations for sanctions. Also I wish police in the US offered any resistance to right-wing shitheads. In my city they are allowed to run-a-mock. 3. This statement is completely absurd. I mean it's well known that for decades Venezuelan beauty pageants winners were all of European descent. A quick google search of 'Venezuela Race' pulls up a discussion of face in Venezuela. At this point you have to be concern trolling. http://theconversation.com/venezuelas-long-history-of-racism-is-coming-back-to-haunt-it-82199
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Jan 31, 2019 22:16
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:didn't say you did, friend. just said that's the conclusion I'd draw from that statement. Maduro is not good people. Elliot Abrams is extremely, to a degree it is difficult to comprehend, a worse person, and he is the person who has been tasked with defining what, exactly, the US expects to get out of this relationship. It’s still a dumb loving statement. I don’t know anything about Churchill and I don’t understand how you expected me to react to that. I could go on about how that statement shows that you are unable to see the world beyond a mere black and white, us vs them mentality, or how you’re willing to abide evil in other parts of the world that are not inconvenient to you so that another evil (which affects you only marginally) does not affect you at all It may even be worthwhile to point out that to the majority of Venezuelans that name is meaningless, and that when you are hungry making rational decisions is difficult, and so to a lot of people it’s not “abrahams vs Maduro”, but rather “some dude vs Maduro” and more precisely “The dude that is not starving me at least right now vs the dude that is”. That you don’t stop to consider what other people might thing is concerning, to say the least. But this is a fucker moron internet argument so let’s do this the fucker moron internet way. If they sent out abrahams against hitler would you find good things to say about hitler? What if they sent hitler to abrahams, is he now a good guy? What does it say about you that you’re willing to engage in this sort of behaviour?
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Jan 31, 2019 22:16
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Presenting Nipples posted:1. Guaido's stated policy goal is to privatize. The Trump Doctrine is literally 'Take the Oil'. How will that help the situation? quote:2. We should do the exact opposite of what we are currently doing and push for negotiations. We should also pay reparations for sanctions. Also I wish police in the US offered any resistance to right-wing shitheads. In my city they are allowed to run-a-mock. So, you aren't against intervention at all actually, you just want US/foreign actors to intervene on the "right" (heh) side any $$$ transfer to maduro at this point is gonna be used for some combo of paying security forces to shoot and or torture people/maduro's swiss bank account/keep the government float, I can't see how this is anything other than intervention in favor of the government Typo fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Jan 31, 2019 |
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Jan 31, 2019 22:18
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Honestly, I flat out refuse to believe that there is no racism or white privilege in a nation that had African slaves not 2 centuries ago And all your arguments to defend that are very resembling of the same bullshit arguments Brazilian white people use to negate our racism ("we are all mixed!" "in europe our the usa most of us would not even be considered white" "our national food was created by slaves" etc)
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Jan 31, 2019 22:26
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I'm not Venezuelan so I have no real clue but from what I understand latin american countries have a more complex racial caste system than the South African white/black system where basically how white you are really matters there's no "one percent' doctrine but it matters a lot if you are like 75% white vs 25% white, so there's racism but then it's like the 95% white european guy can look down on the 75% white guy who looks down on the 1/64th white guy but that's just stuff I read I''m open to opposing arguments
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Jan 31, 2019 22:28
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Typo posted:I mean I could just be ignorant here, but isn't maduro already selling out venezuelan oil interests to some combinations of china/russia/foreign companies, so it wouldn't all that different? We've probably asked this question fifty times over the last week or so and shockingly the tankies ignore it pretty much every time.
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Jan 31, 2019 22:30
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Presenting Nipples posted:1. Guaido's stated policy goal is to privatize. The Trump Doctrine is literally 'Take the Oil'. How will that help the situation? 1. Your doctrine is "let's do nothing and keep the oil!" Best of both worlds I guess? 2. You want to give material support to a dictator that has, so far, enabled you to keep pumping cheap gas? Got it. 3. Your knowledge of colorism and racism is so shallow, outdated, and conveniently racist that it's hilarious. You are comparing the winners of an internationally organized (read anglo-american) beauty pageant to the population at large, this is ridiculous, by this logic beauty pageant queens will soon rule Venezuela under their iron tiaras. I'm not sure which of those two conclusions makes you look less ridiculous or less racist. Have you seen Guaido? Have you seen pictures of rallies? Are you really telling me you look at those pictures and are seeing blonde, blue-eyed beauty pageant winners walking around in their Louboutins and tiaras holding anti-Maduro signs? And that the best you can do is pull up an article written by a white guy quoting other white men's opinions? Doubling down on your racism and racesplaining is not helping your case, by the way. Elias_Maluco posted:Honestly, I flat out refuse to believe that there is no racism or white privilege in a nation that had African slaves not 2 centuries ago Refuse to believe whatever you want. Brazil is a far larger country with a much longer history in both the Atlantic slave trade and European immigration than Venezuela, most importantly, it is not Venezuela. Secondly, I am pointing out that the use of colorism to decide which side support is a tactic that's been used by racist Anglo-Americans for decades to divide the African-American community and is a racist world view. Colorism exists, but by the same vein, it is an internal issue and using it to divide people in developing countries is nothing but unbridled, bald-faced racism. elgatofilo fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Jan 31, 2019 |
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Jan 31, 2019 22:34
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Furia posted:It’s still a dumb loving statement. I don’t know anything about Churchill and I don’t understand how you expected me to react to that. I could go on about how that statement shows that you are unable to see the world beyond a mere black and white, us vs them mentality, or how you’re willing to abide evil in other parts of the world that are not inconvenient to you so that another evil (which affects you only marginally) does not affect you at all sometimes you are presented a choice between two terrible options. and at that point, it is your unenviable obligation to try to pick the less awful of the two. i certainly can't fault Guiado for picking up the bloody sledgehammer of friendship. it's certainly the best option for him, personally, to try to advance his personal standing. he might even believe he can rein in the worst of his new friends' excesses! here's hoping the intervening years have softened them, or that the dysfunction of american government prevents us from going through with it. because otherwise, you are about to go on a ride we've put an awful lot of countries on over the last fifty years. and nobody but the military gets off it saying "man, sure am glad all that happened."
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Jan 31, 2019 22:40
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elgatofilo posted:1. Your doctrine is "let's do nothing and keep the oil!" Best of both worlds I guess? Are you saying that the association of whiteness and beauty in Venezuela (and Latin America at large) is not an example of racism? Do you think all racism is between Aryan Whites and Everyone Else? Also on the oil, can someone explain to me if it doesn’t make a difference why is the US salivating over it? Why is Guiado going to privatize it and cut funding of the social programs that are funded through it?
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Jan 31, 2019 22:41
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Presenting Nipples posted:
are those social programs being funded today under Maduro?
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Jan 31, 2019 22:45
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Typo posted:what social programs did guiado announce he's gonna cut? I’m not going to do all the research for you. It was posted in this thread a few days ago. If you read through you’ll find it. I will say it is actually fairly difficult to understand what the the US backed opposition stands for other than privatizing the oil industry. I think it is fairy dubious whether they actually have popular support and win an election which is a potential reason they backed out of a negotiated agreement and refused to join in the last election. It seems they are pushing the hard right strategy to be able to massacre chavistas.
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Jan 31, 2019 22:50
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Presenting Nipples posted:Are you saying that the association of whiteness and beauty in Venezuela (and Latin America at large) is not an example of racism? lmao you have 44 posts in this thread, and the only source you cited was that you did a random google search, once.
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Jan 31, 2019 22:50
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Presenting Nipples posted:I’m not going to do all the research for you. It was posted in this thread a few days ago. If you read through you’ll find it. Somehow...I doubt your claim that such a post exist lol I mean, if the government is failing to even have food stamps or w/e program to deliver food to poor people to the point where 10% of the country has became refugees, I seriously doubt that Venezuelan has a funded social welfare net at this point for anyone outside of the military. Typo fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jan 31, 2019 |
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Jan 31, 2019 22:53
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:sometimes you are presented a choice between two terrible options. and at that point, it is your unenviable obligation to try to pick the less awful of the two. i certainly can't fault Guiado for picking up the bloody sledgehammer of friendship. it's certainly the best option for him, personally, to try to advance his personal standing. he might even believe he can rein in the worst of his new friends' excesses! What personal standing? Do you honestly believe that in free elections Guaidó can stand up to Radonski or any other incarcerated politician? Guaidó is not a leader, but he is useful for now. There is a significant difference And even so, what? People just loving starve because reality is messy? You’re doing the same bullshit again of making a decision without taking into account the actual end receivers of the consequence. There’s a reason Venezuelans are taking the streets despite being shot at by the government And this whole “I care about Venszuela” bullshit you’re trying to pull on me is specially hollow given that this crisis did not start a week ago but your concern did. If you had paid attention all these years you’d know no one is flocking to the US in either person or politics out of pleasure. These are moves of absolute desperation of a starving populace e: and don’t give me any loving decorum bullshit. Maduro made sure that all of this happened. You wanna blame somebody? Blame Maduro
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Jan 31, 2019 22:58
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Presenting Nipples posted:Are you saying that the association of whiteness and beauty in Venezuela (and Latin America at large) is not an example of racism? The vast majority of racism is between white people that have white privilege and non-white people. Are you seriously trying to make some kind of reverse-racism argument in 2019? When White people with white privilege start dividing non-white people into fictitious groups (that they've arbitrarily decreed) the purpose is always racist in nature and meant to break down support and autonomy. You see this all the time with the "model minority" myth in North America. I've already explained colorism is a trick that White people play to divide support amongst non-white people. You don't get to arbitrarily decree what race someone is and that is exactly what colorism is. Oh, and going from something as shallow as which features people find to be more beautiful (an idea imposed by Western media, by the way) and equating that to the kind of apartheid segregation the United States imposed on black people is frankly offensive. You really seriously to read up on the history of red-lining, segregation and the Jim Crow south if you think a beauty pageant organized by Western media in another country is any way equivalent to the atrocities committed in the United States. Tripling down on your racism is not helping your case. If the US intervention manages to rest some control from Rosneft or Sinopec (which I doubt) then that might mean a little more money for some US concerns. Considering how doubtful that is, all the supposed salivating is probably unwarranted. You're acting as if there's some vast oil wealth Maduro hasn't already mortgaged (it's all gone at this point.)
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Jan 31, 2019 22:58
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Presenting Nipples posted:I will say it is actually fairly difficult to understand what the the US backed opposition stands for other than privatizing the oil industry. I think it is fairy dubious whether they actually have popular support and win an election which is a potential reason they backed out of a negotiated agreement and refused to join in the last election. It seems they are pushing the hard right strategy to be able to massacre chavistas. so be sure, it is your stance that, in a country where the stores no longer have food in them under the current administration, Maduro will triumph in a fairly held election in the foreseeable future
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Jan 31, 2019 22:58
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Typo posted:Somehow...I doubt that It's obviously a humanitarian crisis. However, once they are codified into law any deaths will just be victims of the free-market. The best argument for Guadio is that the US will no longer have their throat on Venezuela. However, it is a political fantasy to presume the PSUV will relinquish power without use of force and thus the US is pushing for civil war. None of this is difficult to understand. Maduro stepping down is never going to happen and the best route now is for new elections with Guadio as the "symbol" of the opposition. Guadio getting help from the US has likely undermined any popular support for the movement and jeopardized any chance at winning an election, so they have to take it by force because the US is not going to accept any outcome but regime change. It was a bad political ploy made by Donald Trump and someone bred from George Washington University.
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Jan 31, 2019 23:01
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elgatofilo posted:The vast majority of racism is between white people that have white privilege and non-white people. Are you seriously trying to make some kind of reverse-racism argument in 2019? When White people with white privilege start dividing non-white people into fictitious groups (that they've arbitrarily decreed) the purpose is always racist in nature and meant to break down support and autonomy. You see this all the time with the "model minority" myth in North America. I've already explained colorism is a trick that White people play to divide support amongst non-white people. You don't get to arbitrarily decree what race someone is and that is exactly what colorism is. Is your argument that since race doesn't actual exist and is a social construct (I agree with this), that racism doesn't exist in Venezuela? So in other words, in your view race plays no role culturally, socially, politically, or economically in Venezuela? I'm seriously confused at your ramblings on race at this point.
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Jan 31, 2019 23:06
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Presenting Nipples posted:It's obviously a humanitarian crisis. However, once they are codified into law any deaths will just be victims of the free-market. Do you have specific examples of how US support for Guadio has undermined his support in Venezuela?
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Jan 31, 2019 23:08
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Presenting Nipples posted:It's obviously a humanitarian crisis. However, once they are codified into law any deaths will just be victims of the free-market. quote:The best argument for Guadio is that the US will no longer have their throat on Venezuela. However, it is a political fantasy to presume the PSUV will relinquish power without use of force and thus the US is pushing for civil war. None of this is difficult to understand. Maduro stepping down is never going to happen and the best route now is for new elections with Guadio as the "symbol" of the opposition. Guadio getting help from the US has likely undermined any popular support for the movement and jeopardized any chance at winning an election, so they have to take it by force because the US is not going to accept any outcome but regime change. It was a bad political ploy made by Donald Trump and someone bred from George Washington University. yeah I don't buy this at all sorry, people are mostly result oriented when it comes to politics: if poo poo is going badly they are gonna want a new guy. Maybe for you guys with "full-bellies" who has the luxury of cheering for the ideologically correct government fighting US capitalism imperialism he's unacceptable, I suspect actual Venezuelans are probably gonna be more interested in the promises of eating food Typo fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Jan 31, 2019 |
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Jan 31, 2019 23:09
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Do you have specific examples of how US support for Guadio has undermined his support in Venezuela? That is impossible to determine and a matter of opinion, but american intervention isn't generally popular. I could be wrong, but I think many people in this thread think Guadio is a popular figure in Venezuela and that is also a dubious claim unsupported by evidence.
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Jan 31, 2019 23:12
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Someone asked earlier (I think it was Squalid) how yesterday's protests went. The short of it is that they were smaller than the ones last week, partially because they were scheduled to take place between noon and 2:00 PM. When announcing the protests, Guaido said that the opposition understands that people have to work in order to survive, and so it looks like they're trying to avoid big, all-day protests, at least during the week. There is a protest planned on Saturday that will be a day-long affair, and that one is likely to result in violent repression. This story is just breaking on Reuters: the government is trying to liquidate 29 tonnes of gold by the end of next month. It began selling gold on January 26 (3 tonnes). https://twitter.com/ReutersVzla/status/1091095706817957888 There's obviously lots of speculation about what this might mean. It could be the regime looking for quick cash to pay the army and make sure it stays in line, but I think it's more likely that this is Maduro & Co. trying to get their hands on as much money as possible in case they need to get out of Dodge. EDIT: I just also remembered that Rafael Ramirez, who was a lifelong Chavez ally and the head of PDVSA from 2004 to 2014, said today that if there were elections in the country, he would run on a chavista platform: https://twitter.com/RRamirezVE/status/1091059845535539207 This is really big news because Ramirez has a claim on a pre-Maduro chavismo that no one else in the PSUV currently does, at least in my opinion. Before Chavez died, he appointed Maduro as president. The PSUV went along with it because, well, that's what Chavez wanted. As time passed and it became clear that Maduro was a corrupt oaf who was destroying the country, people began leaving the PSUV. Think Luisa Ortega Diaz (attorney general under Chavez), Rafael Ramirez, Miguel Rodriguez Torres (head of the SEBIN under Chavez). By leaving the PSUV, what these people did was say, "Maduro isn't continuing Chavez's politics. He's doing something else. He does not represent what Chavez wanted for the PSUV or for the country". Ramirez running on a platform that says "let's forget the last six years under Maduro and get back to what Chavez really wanted!" could finish tearing the PSUV in half between chavista and madurista. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Jan 31, 2019 |
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Jan 31, 2019 23:13
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Presenting Nipples posted:That is impossible to determine and a matter of opinion, but american intervention isn't generally popular. Here is my claim, for which I have no evidence other than vague assumptions. And so the protests of late have been what exactly? Edit: I have not seen any posters in this thread claiming that he enjoys significant popularity in Venezuela.
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Jan 31, 2019 23:14
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Presenting Nipples posted:That is impossible to determine and a matter of opinion, but american intervention isn't generally popular. Who's that "Guadio" guy you keep talking about
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Jan 31, 2019 23:26
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His name is “Guido” IIRC
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Jan 31, 2019 23:31
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Presenting Nipples posted:1. Guaido's stated policy goal is to privatize. You keep saying this, but you have not posted anything that says PDVSA will be *privatized*. You posted something saying that more private participation in the *oil industry* is sought, but that is *not* privatization of PDVSA. There is private participation in the industry *today* that Maduro has approved. Kindly provide a statement from Guaidó or his party saying PDVSA will be privatized, or else kindly define what you mean by "privatization" and how it will materially differ from current practice. Explain how Sinopec and Rosneft having stakes in Venezuela is somehow not privatization in such a case. vvv hó hó hó Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Jan 31, 2019 |
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Jan 31, 2019 23:35
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Chomskyan posted:His name is “Guido” IIRC Guaido with an accent mark over the o that none of us can be bothered to remember how to type edit: except the guy above me
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Jan 31, 2019 23:37
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the guido caudillo
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Jan 31, 2019 23:42
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https://twitter.com/thesunfruitboy/status/1088863365194309632?s=21
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Jan 31, 2019 23:43
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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-idUSKCN1PP0Y4quote:SINGAPORE (Reuters) - PetroChina Co plans to drop Petroleos de Venezuela SA (PDVSA) as a partner in a planned $10 billion oil refinery and petrochemical project in southern China, said three sources familiar with the matter this week.
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Jan 31, 2019 23:51
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Presenting Nipples posted:Is your argument that since race doesn't actual exist and is a social construct (I agree with this), that racism doesn't exist in Venezuela? So in other words, in your view race plays no role culturally, socially, politically, or economically in Venezuela? I'm seriously confused at your ramblings on race at this point. It's super simple and not confusing: 1. If you are a white guy and you find yourself telling people of color what race they are, you are racist. 2. If you are a white guy telling people of color in another country you don't support them because you've arbitrarily decided they are "white" you are racist. 3. If you are a white guy equating the atrocities of segregation in your country to colorism and then using that to create a false moral equivalence, you are super racist. e: If you are a white guy telling people of color to shut up, sit down, and stop rambling about race in 2019, you are ultra racist. elgatofilo fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Feb 1, 2019 |
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Jan 31, 2019 23:54
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Chomskyan posted:His name is Guido IIRC And that's why we don't need any white saviors lol Gringo go home
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Jan 31, 2019 23:56
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