|
dublish posted:I'm baffled that you seem to be arguing against intervention in favor of even more massive intervention. That particular post I'm mostly not treating fishmech seriously because I feel they are being a bit dishonest and unclear, don't want to post if it's a chore. I imagine the logistics would indeed be onerous, probably less onerous than having an army stationed in a landlocked nation across the world though. I'm basically envisioning what a humanitarian United States would do, instead of current situation where we want a certain type of government in power to secure U.S. interest, which are very obvious when John Bolton goes and says the quiet part loud. Control Volume posted:Venezuela should intervene in america since it has a corrupt president that is widely hated and dangerous, and used illegal and shady tactics to block legitimate votes in several areas, while the american people freeze to death on the streets. They could support a coup by center left candidate Hillary Clinton 
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 03:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 16:07 |
|
|
Homeless Friend posted:That particular post I'm mostly not treating fishmech seriously because I feel they are being a bit dishonest and unclear, don't want to post if it's a chore. I imagine the logistics would indeed be onerous, probably less onerous than having an army stationed in a landlocked nation across the world though. I'm basically envisioning what a humanitarian United States would do, instead of current situation where we want a certain type of government in power to secure U.S. interest, which are very obvious when John Bolton goes and says the quiet part loud. So just to be clear, what you are saying is that you think that the US should basically instigate a massive air campaign in order to drop food and medical supplies on Venezuela? How do you think the Venezuelan government is going to react? If they start firing SAMs at US planes, would the US be justified in striking those SAM sites? How in the world do you imagine something this foolish would proceed? Alternatively, Maduro could admit that he presides over a country in crisis and allow food aid to be distributed to his people rather than just his military and militias.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 03:29
|
|
|
Giggle Goose posted:So just to be clear, what you are saying is that you think that the US should basically instigate a massive air campaign in order to drop food and medical supplies on Venezuela? How do you think the Venezuelan government is going to react? If they start firing SAMs at US planes, would the US be justified in striking those SAM sites? How in the world do you imagine something this foolish would proceed? Most of this seems capable by ground tbh, having c130s drop crates is some fanciful battlefield, ea get in the game, poo poo. I mean how does price control food get smuggled to reap the arbitrage profit get out? Shouldn't be impossible to go the other way either. Afaik Maduro accepted UN food aid recently in late november, which was why I wanted to know what the hell the deal with that was. Only really seen articles commenting on it having happened.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 03:41
|
|
|
Homeless Friend posted:Most of this seems capable by ground tbh, having c130s drop crates is some fanciful battlefield, ea get in the game, poo poo. I mean how does price control food get smuggled to reap the arbitrage profit get out? Shouldn't be impossible to go the other way either. Oh Okay just carry it overland, I see. So who is going to be doing the carrying? US military? Refugees? Randos from Columbia? How are you going to defend these people? Pay them? Ensure that they get home without being arrested or killed? Which country is going to allow these food mules to come and go? How many people is this going to take?
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 03:58
|
|
|
Homeless Friend posted:Yes it'd be a first. The US could be proud. No it's not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Task_Force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Blockade#Start_of_the_Berlin_Airlift
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 04:16
|
|
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:No it's not. Sure, maybe it was possible half a century ago but definitely not with today's technology.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 04:20
|
|
|
Homeless Friend posted:That particular post I'm mostly not treating fishmech seriously because I feel they are being a bit dishonest and unclear, don't want to post if it's a chore. I imagine the logistics would indeed be onerous, probably less onerous than having an army stationed in a landlocked nation across the world though. I'm basically envisioning what a humanitarian United States would do, instead of current situation where we want a certain type of government in power to secure U.S. interest, which are very obvious when John Bolton goes and says the quiet part loud. Sure is weird that you're more in favor of invading Venezuela than letting duly elected politicians have powers they're entitled to have under the local constitution.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 04:20
|
|
|
I thought of the similarity but I figure the logistics of it are a bit neater having to hit a single area over and over. E:woop over quote due to phone posting Homeless Friend fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Feb 1, 2019 |
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 04:33
|
|
|
fishmech posted:Sure is weird that you're more in favor of invading Venezuela than letting duly elected politicians have powers they're entitled to have under the local constitution. go on
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 04:51
|
|
|
Homeless Friend posted:I thought of the similarity but I figure the logistics of it are a bit neater having to hit a single area over and over. What those operations should tell you is that feeding a city, let alone a country, is a massive operation that cannot be completed without logistics bases and help on the ground. Smuggling in food to Venezuela on the scale necessary to actually make up for the food deficiencies simply isn't feasible—in Berlin, for instance, it took control of multiple airfields and aircraft flying in and out constantly (To the tune of aircraft taking off every four minutes, and the turnaround time of an aircraft on the ground being a mere half an hour) to feed the city. In Somalia, the intervention there was a massive multinational effort, as well as a large military presence to ensure that food could be safely distributed, and would not be seized by warlords looking to fund their own operations. The US should absolutely be ready to provide massive food relief until the economy stabilizes, but it has to be recognized that the ultimate reason for food scarcity lies entirely within the administration of the PSUV and Maduro, whose policies have both caused the crisis (Refusing to lift price controls that have made it impossible to find food anywhere but for hard currency on the black market) and refusal to even accept international food aid until recently (Where there are still concerns that food would be seized and then sold on the black market by PSUV officials).
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 04:55
|
|
|
Grouchio posted:Were Iraq War discussions in 2004 this hectic? Worse. For one, there was absolutely no question of what the United States was gearing up to do in this case. Also much less apologism for Saddam Hussein's government, as I recall - the key point of contention was not arguing whether his government was legitimate or positives, it was whether he had Nuclear Weapons and/or was linked to 9/11 somehow.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 05:00
|
|
|
Billionaires in China are being murdered non-stop. I'm starting to warm up to the idea of China leading the intervention in Venezuela. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 05:22
|
|
|
Presenting Nipples posted:You are really smart. I am amazed at the inability of anyone who is pro US-Coup to do any research on the subject and continue to demand evidence. Once evidence is presented the goal posts get moved again. I repeat, since the article you link to has no evidence that there are any plans to privatize PDVSA, just unsupported claims it does:. Please provide actual statements saying ownership of PDVSA will be sold. Not that private companies will be invited to participate in the oil industry (since they already do under Maduro, everyone agrees). You criticize people for demanding evidence, but you've repeatedly tried and *failed* to produce it - you keep reposting articles that do not actually support your claims when examined.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 07:08
|
|
|
Giggle Goose posted:So just to be clear, what you are saying is that you think that the US should basically instigate a massive air campaign in order to drop food and medical supplies on Venezuela? How do you think the Venezuelan government is going to react? If they start firing SAMs at US planes, would the US be justified in striking those SAM sites? How in the world do you imagine something this foolish would proceed? What's the point of spending so much money on ultra stealth planes if they can't even avoid 70s era Soviet AA? Rust Martialis posted:I repeat, since the article you link to has no evidence that there are any plans to privatize PDVSA, just unsupported claims it does:. Please provide actual statements saying ownership of PDVSA will be sold. They're outlining plans to privatize public industries and over in the USA Bolton and Crew are openly salivating over US oil companies running the show but you need some actual smoking gun document that says "we want to sell PDVSA?" What about the fact that it is standard US modus operandi to privatize national resources every time it intervenes? National Assembly's transition law proposal posted:Centralized controls, arbitrary measures of expropriation and other similar measures will be abolished… For these purposes, the centralized model of controls of the economy will be replaced by a model of freedom and market based on the right of each Venezuelan to work under the guarantees of property rights and freedom of enterprise. COMRADES fucked around with this message at 07:56 on Feb 1, 2019 |
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 07:50
|
|
|
Rust Martialis posted:I repeat, since the article you link to has no evidence that there are any plans to privatize PDVSA, just unsupported claims it does:. Please provide actual statements saying ownership of PDVSA will be sold. Not that private companies will be invited to participate in the oil industry (since they already do under Maduro, everyone agrees). No evidence I scream as the stated goal of the new ‘administration’ is to privatize state institutions and John Bolton goes on national TV talking about their oil. Like are you capable of inferring anything?!?! If you want further evidence. The exact text of the law is in the link in Spanish btw, not that it matters to you or to anyone. Anything which contradicts Trump, Bolton, and Abram as the saviors of the Venezuelan people is immediately dismissed as untrustworthy. The logistics of dropping food is considered too difficult, but bombs are not questioned. The Venezuelan economy exists in a vacuum, impenetrable to global capital, is taken at face value. History is considered obsolete, where America’s history of supporting and committing genocide is irrelevant. https://venezuelanalysis.com/news/13935
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 07:55
|
|
|
Nah dude maybe this time the IMF won't impose strict austerity and privatization requirements as a condition of its loan like it does literally everywhere else.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 07:57
|
|
|
qkkl posted:Billionaires in China are being murdered non-stop. I'm starting to warm up to the idea of China leading the intervention in Venezuela. agreed, in fact China should send international brigades (named "Mao-Tse-Tung brigade" or "Deng Xiaoping regiment" or "Xi Jiping battallion") to defend/build socialism in Venezuela
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 08:03
|
|
|
So the answer is that you have no actual statement from the opposition that they intend to sell ownership stakes in PDVSA, just that they will continue partnering with companies like they do today (like Rosneft and Sinopec). I mean keep making all the unsupported claims you want, just stop trying to claim actual evidence, and it's cool.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 08:30
|
|
|
COMRADES posted:What's the point of spending so much money on ultra stealth planes if they can't even avoid 70s era Soviet AA?
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 08:32
|
|
|
Rust Martialis posted:So the answer is that you have no actual statement from the opposition that they intend to sell ownership stakes in PDVSA, just that they will continue partnering with companies like they do today (like Rosneft and Sinopec). Truly there's nothing scarier than a social democracy with a regulated mixed economy.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 09:04
|
|
|
Randarkman posted:Truly there's nothing scarier than a social democracy with a regulated mixed economy. I am posting right now from such a hellhole of darkness and suffering here in Copenhagen. Do not weep for me, this fate I chose.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 09:17
|
|
|
Rust Martialis posted:I am posting right now from such a hellhole of darkness and suffering here in Copenhagen. Do not weep for me, this fate I chose. Denmark being hosed up and terrible goes well beyond the nature of its economic organization. And the scope of this thread. Though social democrats are involved.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 09:29
|
|
|
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...e-idUSKCN1PP2QR So, how much gold do they have left before military large sons get antsy and start talking English for some reason Control Volume posted:Venezuela should intervene in america since it has a corrupt president that is widely hated and dangerous, and used illegal and shady tactics to block legitimate votes in several areas, while the american people freeze to death on the streets. They could support a coup by center left candidate Hillary Clinton I mean if Trump gets angry with opposition majority congress and just makes up his own Constituent Assembly, America should be fair game for UN black helicopter gun-seizing invasion
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 09:38
|
|
|
qkkl posted:Billionaires in China are being murdered non-stop. I'm starting to warm up to the idea of China leading the intervention in Venezuela. Only the ones not loyal to Xi. Its basically a government culling program to create trillionaires.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 10:00
|
|
|
I could almost believe that Maduro is a CIA plant made to discredit Socialism https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-46999668
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 10:33
|
|
|
elgatofilo posted:I'm sorry you don't like being called a racist. Stop doubling down on your racism if that's the case. Nothing you say about racism makes any sense. That and the fact you that insist on trying to convince people that there is no racism on Venezuela makes me take everything you say with a kilo of salt
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 11:54
|
|
|
frankee posted:I could almost believe that Maduro is a CIA plant made to discredit Socialism I think that article over-eggs Maduro's responsibility. Economic policies take time to take effect. The CIA actually did Chavez a favour by hiring a witch to cast a cancer spell on him, because if he survived to the present day I'm pretty sure everything would be turning out the same. It's Chavez's economic policies and socialist politics that wrecked Venezuela, Maduro's just unlucky. Imagine being Maduro and watching Chavez over the years get idolized the world over by the sorts of retard tankies that swarm D&D, being able to splurge on public spending while also enriching lackeys through corruption with oil at $150 a barrel. And then Saint Chavez ordains you his anointed successor and you get to have all the stuff, the status, the power. And then things turn out like this. In some ways it's a cruel fate and I even feel a bit sorry for the guy when he prattles on about the ghost of Chavez speaking to him through a bird lmao (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 12:37
|
|
|
The extend of GDP growth swings in those charts somehwat makes me believe that these are not adjusted numbers. In any case, be it Chavez or Maduro, there was too much inflation compared to GDP numbers, and the oil production was on a steady decline. So you have a point in saying Venezuela was not looking healthy under Chavez. However, it is hard looking at those numbers and not thinking, "wow, since Maduro, poo poo really has hit the fan".
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 14:38
|
|
|
This also ignores the elephant in the room of how the state oil company has gone through massive drain of competent people and replacing with a focus on people that are politically loyal rather than actually being competent. I'm unsure how Venezuela would be post oil collapse but if it wasn't so corrupt it would likely be much better.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 15:36
|
|
|
Rust Martialis posted:So the answer is that you have no actual statement from the opposition that they intend to sell ownership stakes in PDVSA, just that they will continue partnering with companies like they do today (like Rosneft and Sinopec). What could possibly be greater evidence then the Guaido controlled legislative body passing a law allowing for a majority of ownership stake to be transferred to private enterprise? Why do you think the US choose Guaido as their puppet? Do you literally expect them to say ‘lol we are going to hand the state to American Yankees!’? Actually I’m pretty sure if Guaido said that exact phrase you would still ask for evidence.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 16:10
|
|
|
Presenting Nipples posted:What could possibly be greater evidence then the Guaido controlled legislative body passing a law allowing for a majority of ownership stake to be transferred to private enterprise? Why do you think the US choose Guaido as their puppet? Do you know why that law was written and how it relates to what the PSUV has been doing inside of Venezuela during the past few years? I feel you are ignoring, or ignorant of, much of the context governing the situation in Venezuela.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 16:27
|
|
|
Presenting Nipples posted:What could possibly be greater evidence then the Guaido controlled legislative body passing a law allowing for a majority of ownership stake to be transferred to private enterprise? Why do you think the US choose Guaido as their puppet? Oh, now there's a relevant law about privatization of PDVSA? I'm sure you can cite the relevant sections of it that talk about future privatization of PDVSA?
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 16:56
|
|
|
madeintaipei posted:Do you know why that law was written and how it relates to what the PSUV has been doing inside of Venezuela during the past few years? Venezuela still controls a majority and Maduro’s policies are bad but this is obviously worse in the long term. Do you think Guaido’s plan of handing over majority control to private enterprise will be better? Can anyone actually defend this coup rather than just asking pedantic questions over and over while the US is attempt to starve the country into submission?
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 17:04
|
|
|
Presenting Nipples posted:Venezuela still controls a majority and Maduro’s policies are bad but this is obviously worse in the long term. It was a yes or no question. Just can just say "no" if you do not know.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 17:11
|
|
|
madeintaipei posted:It was a yes or no question. Just can just say "no" if you do not know. Can you just defend the neoliberal reforms already?
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 17:19
|
|
|
You need to post the actual reforms of privatizing the oil company first you keep talking as if they exist first.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 17:47
|
|
|
Presenting Nipples posted:Venezuela still controls a majority and Maduro’s policies are bad but this is obviously worse in the long term. So assuming Maduro stays in power can you honestly tell me more and more of it isn't gonna be privatized anyway, only with a larger share going to Russian/Chinese companies relative to US companies? I mean it seems to me that Maduro needs $$$ to fund his lifestyle/swiss bank account/the military, the last just to hold on to power, what does he have left except to sell off the state oil company at this point? Privatization has already being occurring: it's just that a matter of which actors the divvying up goes to. Typo fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Feb 1, 2019 |
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 17:51
|
|
|
Typo posted:So assuming Maduro stays in power can you honestly tell me more and more of it isn't gonna be privatized anyway, only with a larger share going to Russian/Chinese companies relative to US companies? Any genuine attempt to fix the country’s problems are being undermined and made worse by the US. Do I think Maduro is going to fix the problems? No. Can the Venezuelan people? Yes.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 17:54
|
|
|
Presenting Nipples posted:Any genuine attempt to fix the country’s problems are being undermined and made worse by the US. you aren't answering the question though? your argument basically comes down to "privatization is bad" and "privatization is gonna occur under guado so it's worse than maduro" but maduro has being privatizing the oil industry anyway so.....I'm not sure how valid your argument is
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 17:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 16:07 |
|
|
This article sounds bad for Maduro. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...8-idUSKCN1PQ4PB quote:WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Non-U.S. entities buying oil or petroleum products from Venezuela’s state-owned PDVSA in deals that involve the U.S. financial system, brokers or people must be wound down by April 28, the U.S. Treasury Department said in a notice posted early on Friday.
|
|
#
?
Feb 1, 2019 18:06
|
|
