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SkySteak posted:Could you elaborate on this statement, as I am not quite catching the meaning.
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Feb 3, 2019 22:56
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dwarf74 posted:Probably. When there's fan art about your characters and fanfic and cosplay, etc., it's gotta be hard to kill one off. Editing it out is a biggie. In a D&D podcast it hides the flaw which inspired the whole narrativist movement.
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Feb 3, 2019 23:03
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dwarf74 posted:Probably. When there's fan art about your characters and fanfic and cosplay, etc., it's gotta be hard to kill one off. One of my co workers is really into Critical Role, and a few months back the party cleric died to a bad roll while the party was split and they let it stand. Or something like that.
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Feb 3, 2019 23:04
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spectralent posted:Right, but that's not waffling; that's them having an objective-based discussion, or possibly them meandering in a way that's expressive because they're giving views on a situation. As soon as they reach a deadlock (that's not going anywhere; someone storming out is definitely going somewhere), cut. Again, "cut all the dull stuff" doesn't mean a nonstop cavalcade of nijnas, it means that all scenes should be about things and contain a thing that's happening and when they stop, cut. I do disagree with the notion that you necessarily have to cut by you, the referee, proactively doing something. I might say when a discussion has reached a deadlock "So, do any of the party members actually take action here, or do you just keep discussing it?", and then resort to having something proactive happen if the players are OOC happy with the notion of their characters arguing in circles until the enemy makes the next move. The reason I'm big on this is that I like the idea in investigative games of players having the option of saying "We reluctantly choose to wait for the killer to strike again, in the knowledge that this will likely create more evidence but at the cost of a human life", or in a more sandboxy, less one-investigation-at-a-time game "We shelve this angle and go work on something else; maybe a breakthrough on another case will help us make progress on this one, or maybe things are just going to get worse before they get better on this front". Those are decisions with weight, due to the potential negative consequences, so I don't want to just say "Welp, you talked for too long so you missed your turn and now the enemy's moved" - I want that decision to be a conscious choice on the part of the players where possible, because then they've bought into the possibility that their favourite NPC might be the next one that the Cult of the Geometric Catastrophe scoops the eyeballs out of. (This is where I really like Call of Cthulhu 7th Edition's Idea mechanic, by the way - it takes what was an annoying, generic "Gimme a clue" button and turns it into a perilous mechanic where the players can say "Well, we're stumped, either we luck out and stumble across something or it'll come down to the enemy making their next move", which I think is a fantastic option to have and a much better solution to the "We're stuck" problem than Gumshoe's "OK, well here's the clue anyway".) tl;dr: fast games have their place but I think slow games have their place too, and I fear that the tendency towards nonstop calvacades of ninjas across media is crowding out slow media in general. Warthur fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Feb 4, 2019 |
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Feb 4, 2019 00:06
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Kurieg posted:One of my co workers is really into Critical Role, and a few months back the party cleric died to a bad roll while the party was split and they let it stand. Or something like that. I vaguely recall that it was A Big Thing, and that some fans got real unpleasant about it, because of course.
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Feb 4, 2019 00:31
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That Old Tree posted:I vaguely recall that it was A Big Thing, and that some fans got real unpleasant about it, because of course. Of course. To call the fanbase of CR outright fanatical sometimes isn't a bad description. Though he probably wishes he was playing a Cleric, it was Mercer's not-very-good homebrew martial and the death was purely thanks to the mechanics of the class. I do wonder how things will happen going forward. They had deaths prior to the stream for the first game, and and a few happen on stream there too.
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Feb 4, 2019 00:42
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hyphz posted:Editing it out is a biggie. In a D&D podcast it hides the flaw which inspired the whole narrativist movement. That's not a podcast's job.
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Feb 4, 2019 00:46
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Arthil posted:Of course. To call the fanbase of CR outright fanatical sometimes isn't a bad description. Though he probably wishes he was playing a Cleric, it was Mercer's not-very-good homebrew martial and the death was purely thanks to the mechanics of the class. Yeah I bailed out hard of CR in no small part because the fanbase is rough to say the least. Also yeah the kinda mess of a design in that class is what killed it above all else and I'm going to take a wild stab that hes happier for it. Also not to mention at a certain point in D&D death becomes less and less impactful on the group, sure you can come up with houserules to keep it important but ultimately death is something you can mitigate to various degrees. Plus I mean, I don't think anyone said its never okay to kill a character at all. You got to see them play like 20 sessions or more at least before a character died so thats a lot more of a buildup than 0 and as a result has a lot more impact and play tbh.
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Feb 4, 2019 01:12
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Wrestlepig posted:Interesting medium post talking about the state of the industry for very indie storygame developers, and the opportunities Itch.io offers. They've been starting to check out ttrpgs as a more fleshed-out category there, and this is a bit of a call to action. Curiously he also says a forum would be a good idea for artists. The article doesn't mention Patreon and Kickstarter, but I don't think those are as relevant to this sort of design DriveThruRPG is loving hot garbage and is a hellish marketplace of maximised undercutting microtransaction style. I remember the warlord that was discussed and released had people refusing to look at it and pay for something like that even when the asking price was like $2. That is not a marketplace anyone can survive in and is basically a condemnation of anyone who holds any value of their work. It is a proudly dumb statement come that site and the users of that site that games and systems inherently hold no value. So yeah if they can find an alternative, I hope they do so.
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Feb 4, 2019 01:20
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dwarf74 posted:Bullshit. Not their job but I can deffo see it as a thing that just happens in the process.
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Feb 4, 2019 01:35
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kingcom posted:DriveThruRPG is loving hot garbage and is a hellish marketplace of maximised undercutting microtransaction style. I remember the warlord that was discussed and released had people refusing to look at it and pay for something like that even when the asking price was like $2. That is not a marketplace anyone can survive in and is basically a condemnation of anyone who holds any value of their work. It is a proudly dumb statement come that site and the users of that site that games and systems inherently hold no value. So yeah if they can find an alternative, I hope they do so. It's an interesting problem, is there anyone else who does PoD as well as DTRPG?
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Feb 4, 2019 01:43
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Liquid Communism posted:It's an interesting problem, is there anyone else who does PoD as well as DTRPG? lulu.com?
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Feb 4, 2019 01:50
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neongrey posted:Not their job but I can deffo see it as a thing that just happens in the process. Yea, given the amount of growth in participation that's attributed to podcasts, the idea that indies don't just have to compete against D&D but against a mocked-up D&D that outright cheats to hide that system's weaknesses is hardly welcome. I mean, having a group with good synergy that's made up of professionals was always stretch IMHO, but at least it is something that could happen. If they're actually just straight up editing bits out, that's much worse.
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Feb 4, 2019 02:09
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Amateur live theater has to compete with pro theater, which has to compete with movies and television, it's not a new problem, and it is very unlikely there will be a solution found after a century plus of looking for one. While it is clear that you can't expect the same experience playing that you get from a podcast, there really isn't any way we are going to get podcasters en mass to put that in a disclaimer at the beginning of their shows saying so. The new player coming into the hobby because of podcasts is going to quickly find out that the people they are playing with are generally not actors any more than they are, and are going to have to adjust their expectations a little bit. Edit: gently caress, if finding out their fellow players can't act is the worst they get from joining a group they will be lucky. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Feb 4, 2019 |
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Feb 4, 2019 02:19
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Arthil posted:Of course. To call the fanbase of CR outright fanatical sometimes isn't a bad description. Though he probably wishes he was playing a Cleric, it was Mercer's not-very-good homebrew martial and the death was purely thanks to the mechanics of the class. CR's interesting as it brings out the dark sides of two different kinds of fanbases. You've got the ones who are super invested in the characters (which is fine) and then get super-possessive about what happens to them, even more so than their actual players (which is not). It's exactly the same thing you see in any character-driven fandom where they get mad for realz when their pet character doesn't hook up with they're supposed to or whatever, like how the ending of the Netflix Voltron was apparently worth sending death threats. Then you have that brand of gamer we're more familiar with, who raise a hue and cry at any rule gaffs they perceive. Like for example they ragged on Matt for his class being Not Very Good (and this was true, it's bad to have a character class who uses HP as a resource and give them a D8 hit die, coupled with not having a super-dedicated healer in the party*) but they come at it like, well, Pundit does to Critical Role in general in which any points are lost in the very tiresome outrage. Even when the thing was just getting off the ground some people would go all the way out of their entire drat minds if Vex forgot to use her Hunter's Mark. Oh! Almost forgot. Both sides of give Marisha Ray a heaping helping of crap because she's the GM's wife. Also probably just because she's a woman, but Laura Bailey doesn't get it nearly so much. *At least I don't think so. I know Jester's a cleric but I don't know how healbot she is. Dawgstar fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Feb 4, 2019 |
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Feb 4, 2019 02:35
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remusclaw posted:Edit: gently caress, if finding out their fellow players can't act is the worst they get from joining a group they will be lucky. I don't get all the hate for actual play. I have been role playing for for years and have never had an experience as polished as Adventure Zone or Critical Role,but like... I still have a ton of fun. Cool aspirational things are good.
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Feb 4, 2019 02:51
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Lord_Hambrose posted:I don't get all the hate for actual play. I have been role playing for for years and have never had an experience as polished as Adventure Zone or Critical Role,but like... I still have a ton of fun. Man I don't hate actual play, but some actual players are the worst.
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Feb 4, 2019 02:52
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Lord_Hambrose posted:I don't get all the hate for actual play. I have been role playing for for years and have never had an experience as polished as Adventure Zone or Critical Role,but like... I still have a ton of fun. Yeah I'm not really sure I buy the idea that a slick, polished actual play is going to somehow dispirit and dishearten other people who might want to play elfgames themselves. It's a bit like saying that because the NBA exists you might as well never play a game of pickup basketball. The issue seems entirely manufactured.
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Feb 4, 2019 02:54
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Lord_Hambrose posted:I don't get all the hate for actual play. I have been role playing for for years and have never had an experience as polished as Adventure Zone or Critical Role,but like... I still have a ton of fun. I think its less the actual play and more the actual play setting both expectations and setting up some frustrating blinders on people coming in. There are a lot of experiences people have had, me included, from 'I want to play d&d5e and only this because its what they play on TAZ or CR' to 'uh actually this is how Matt Mercer handles problem X and we should be doing it like that' or even the common 'why do you run your game like CR' which can be the worst feeling. Matt's even talked about how depressing it is to hear 'the Matt Mercer effect' become an actual term to describe this.
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Feb 4, 2019 02:54
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Kai Tave posted:Yeah I'm not really sure I buy the idea that a slick, polished actual play is going to somehow dispirit and dishearten other people who might want to play elfgames themselves. It's a bit like saying that because the NBA exists you might as well never play a game of pickup basketball. The issue seems entirely manufactured. Think of it as the nerd version of touched-up photos in ads. Or, as mentioned, porn.
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Feb 4, 2019 02:55
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Kai Tave posted:Yeah I'm not really sure I buy the idea that a slick, polished actual play is going to somehow dispirit and dishearten other people who might want to play elfgames themselves. It's a bit like saying that because the NBA exists you might as well never play a game of pickup basketball. The issue seems entirely manufactured. If there is a problem, it's one that would be solved by a simple chat with the prospective new gamer. "We're more beer and pretzels" or "we do a lot of in-character stuff, but we also like to hang out and just have fun" and that sorts all of your problems if you don't run the forum people refer to as "the bad one, no, not that one, the really bad one."
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Feb 4, 2019 03:00
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In all honesty, the influx of players from the podcasts is a good thing, and while there will be some some who bounce off the actual experience of playing, it means more players in the long run, and maybe even well adjusted ones! It's nice to have new people coming into the hobby. Hopefully they find good groups and have a good time. I absolutely wouldn't accuse anyone here of wanting to gatekeep the hobby, but pundit is absolutely of the sort who always held D&D up as some kind of arcane measurement of how smart they are and normies aren't, and it doesn't strike me as a coincidence that attempts to start an RPG"Gate" sort of thing coincides with an influx of people into this small nerd hobby. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Feb 4, 2019 |
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Feb 4, 2019 03:05
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Lord_Hambrose posted:I don't get all the hate for actual play. I have been role playing for for years and have never had an experience as polished as Adventure Zone or Critical Role,but like... I still have a ton of fun. I think the fact that you call it aspirational is precisely the problem some people are having. Are airbrushed models in ads aspirational for women? Or are they an unrealistic standard of beauty contributing to insecurity and feelings of inadequacy? I mean, both, obviously, but when a person seeing it one way runs into a person seeing it the other way, there will inevitably be friction.
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Feb 4, 2019 03:20
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The backlash/'D&Dgate' stuff is also transparently a response to an AP-related thing, which is that a lot of new players are interested in D&D as a gay disaster teen simulator (my long-term play group is also absolutely interested in any RPG as an opportunity for this, to be clear). Tumblr had a strong community of D&D fans producing art of their characters just a little while ago (maybe still?) and it was really clear that a lot of what they got out of the concept was high drama, messy relationships, and fun domestic wizard stuff. With lots of LGBT content, diverse characters, etc. One of my cousins, who just recently graduated college, got into D&D via APs and that culture, and her entire group had a similar entry to the hobby. They have totally different assumptions than the Tomb of Horror generation, and in my opinion much more interesting and fun ones. No wonder the worst side of the OSR was up in arms about APs.
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Feb 4, 2019 03:30
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I think there is certainly a lot of value in just putting out good role playing based entertainment. I mean, even if some people have issues with their actual play attempts not being as polished as the version of role playing they experience and quit that is still going to be a big net gain in players. I mean, what better way to get a mass of anonymous people into gaming? All my players were hand raised into my gaming group essentially, but anything easier than that is a massive good.
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Feb 4, 2019 03:33
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D&D improv on stage seems to be popular as hell too, there is one regularly both here and the next city over.
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Feb 4, 2019 03:45
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Honestly I just wish there were more APs took a bit of an instructional tack and off showed off lesser-known systems, though this is probably more my own selfishness of wanting to see the flow of a game before I buy it.
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Feb 4, 2019 04:07
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Jimbozig posted:I think the fact that you call it aspirational is precisely the problem some people are having. I think comparing actual plays to something like deceptive and manipulative advertising is kind of a weird take as well. Maybe I'm not super up on the state of Actual Plays and how they're being pitched to people, but I don't recall APs being sold to listeners and/or viewers as "this is how your D&D game should be!" e; I mean sold to viewers by the AP people themselves, maybe their fans are going around telling everyone that your D&D game needs to be a slickly polished experience starring professional voice actors but fandoms are generally not to be listened to anyway.
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Feb 4, 2019 04:07
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Wrestlepig posted:Interesting medium post talking about the state of the industry for very indie storygame developers, and the opportunities Itch.io offers. They've been starting to check out ttrpgs as a more fleshed-out category there, and this is a bit of a call to action. Curiously he also says a forum would be a good idea for artists. The article doesn't mention Patreon and Kickstarter, but I don't think those are as relevant to this sort of design Ha, CoNE immediately up in that conversation. Followed up by some goons you may recognize, good show. Joe Slowboat posted:The backlash/'D&Dgate' stuff is also transparently a response to an AP-related thing, which is that a lot of new players are interested in D&D as a gay disaster teen simulator (my long-term play group is also absolutely interested in any RPG as an opportunity for this, to be clear). Tumblr had a strong community of D&D fans producing art of their characters just a little while ago (maybe still?) and it was really clear that a lot of what they got out of the concept was high drama, messy relationships, and fun domestic wizard stuff. With lots of LGBT content, diverse characters, etc. I usually spend my time grousing about the design flaws of D&D, which left me blind to the obvious fact that something with such strong social cache would necessarily be subverted to serve the needs of the generation that came after me. (It's me, I'm the grog.) I'm glad of it though.
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Feb 4, 2019 04:15
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Joe Slowboat posted:The backlash/'D&Dgate' stuff is also transparently a response to an AP-related thing, which is that a lot of new players are interested in D&D as a gay disaster teen simulator (my long-term play group is also absolutely interested in any RPG as an opportunity for this, to be clear). Tumblr had a strong community of D&D fans producing art of their characters just a little while ago (maybe still?) and it was really clear that a lot of what they got out of the concept was high drama, messy relationships, and fun domestic wizard stuff. With lots of LGBT content, diverse characters, etc. Yea the way people view D&D has massively shifted and I think 100% for the better. There are way fewer people being inducted into what tabletop is with the very narrow 'this is a gritty fantasy experience where the DM is basically your enemy and everything has to be serious' lens and now it's more 'oh so you can be a hot pink tiefling with social anxiety that really wishes they knew how to cook and still tell an exciting and fun story with your friends'. There's a selfish part of me that wishes other systems that used to be mocked by the D&D crowd for doing that kinda stuff already were getting the 'spotlight', yea, but honestly I also had a younger cousin gush to me about her D&D character and I'd have to be some kinda psycho to go 'neeeeeyah actually you'll find that D&D's rules aren't optimal for such storytelling your group is playing the wrong system'.
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Feb 4, 2019 05:09
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sexpig by night posted:There's a selfish part of me that wishes other systems that used to be mocked by the D&D crowd for doing that kinda stuff already were getting the 'spotlight', yea, but honestly I also had a younger cousin gush to me about her D&D character and I'd have to be some kinda psycho to go 'neeeeeyah actually you'll find that D&D's rules aren't optimal for such storytelling your group is playing the wrong system'. I think thats really a big part of it for me as well, I'm glad people are now able to go play their cool characters but it make me a little bit depressed to know it's still such a huge battle to get people to try other systems because of the buy in being so linked to D&D. I'm running a game essentially for that reason at the moment and it's a bit frustrating to know I'm being reset to scratch to get people to move off of it to try something else.
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Feb 4, 2019 05:18
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dwarf74 posted:Probably. When there's fan art about your characters and fanfic and cosplay, etc., it's gotta be hard to kill one off. No, Black Leaf did not find the trap, and I declare her dead.
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Feb 4, 2019 05:21
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Yea it's fair for those of us who have been playing this stuff a while to have a little twinge of 'oh so NOW 'story games' are cool now that D&D is doing it' I think, it's just that energy should be channeled into 'hey you seem to be enjoying D&D, you know what other systems can be cool too?' rather than the groggy 'meeeeh you're doing it WRONG though' bullshit we make fun of.
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Feb 4, 2019 05:21
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kingcom posted:I think thats really a big part of it for me as well, I'm glad people are now able to go play their cool characters but it make me a little bit depressed to know it's still such a huge battle to get people to try other systems because of the buy in being so linked to D&D. I'm running a game essentially for that reason at the moment and it's a bit frustrating to know I'm being reset to scratch to get people to move off of it to try something else. There's more than a few people around here who I think would respond like sexpig by night's example, however.
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Feb 4, 2019 05:24
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Arthil posted:There's more than a few people around here who I think would respond like sexpig by night's example, however. Is this a shot at me or what? idgi
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Feb 4, 2019 05:38
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Rent-a-Bot posted:Honestly I just wish there were more APs took a bit of an instructional tack and off showed off lesser-known systems, though this is probably more my own selfishness of wanting to see the flow of a game before I buy it. If there were more folks who wanted that it'd happen, but since good AP is expensive to make and most of the big shows are D&D, it's not going to happen without a serious shakeup.
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Feb 4, 2019 05:50
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kingcom posted:Is this a shot at me or what? idgi It's not, no. There are a lot of people who almost seem to take offense to someone wanting to do something mechanically bad for story purposes.
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Feb 4, 2019 05:54
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Arthil posted:It's not, no. There are a lot of people who almost seem to take offense to someone wanting to do something mechanically bad for story purposes. God, and how. Shadowrun is murder for it. So many players I've run stuff for like Missions live-game events who froth at the mouth about bad players the minute someone shows up at a table with something not optimized to the nines. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Feb 4, 2019 |
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Feb 4, 2019 06:06
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DalaranJ posted:Ha, CoNE immediately up in that conversation. Followed up by some goons you may recognize, good show. CoNE? Anyway, I run RPPR and have been posting AP podcasts since 2008. This thread is very interesting to me because I don't listen to other AP podcasts. Also, I don't edit our games because I know I would burn out on the podcast if I had to spend hours editing every game. Instead, I try to run focused games that are better for listening. We have distractions and side chat but I try to keep that at a minimum. I also try to keep players focused on the game. It seems to work most of the time. I do know that our listeners tend to be ravenous when it comes to listening - more is better.
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