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The borders of the Holy Roman Empire make a lot of sense if you imagine it as a sort of discrete dynamical system governed by the laws of Salic patrimony and partible inheritance. With each generation the territories are subdivided or passed on to next of kin. The random effect of varying heir survival in each generation is going to tend to make the average feudal demesne decrease, while the largest territories increase in size. It seems counter intuitive that by constantly subdividing territories we should expect a few to get even bigger, but assuming random inheritance with a finite population of heirs in each generation, and it is what we would expect. A system where inheritance rather than military force is the primary regulator of territorial control can explain the fragmentation of polities within the HRE.
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Feb 4, 2019 04:47
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Squalid posted:A system where inheritance rather than military force is the primary regulator of territorial control can explain the fragmentation of polities within the HRE.
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Feb 4, 2019 04:54
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Jazerus posted:and the colors don't all represent a single polity - some are categories. for example there are many ecclesiastical states that are all represented as dark blue/grey on the map, but which were in no way actually united Where can I read more about these ecclesiastical states? So, these were big properties owned by various religious orders and each one managed by a church ruler answering to a church superior, basically like any other feudal structure, and by "not united" you mean they were held in bits and pieces by several different organizations none of which coordinated? How does autonomous church territory work anyway, how did the Teutonic order manage to take over all this land and also get the imperial OK to conquer Lithuania and Russia HEY GUNS posted:apartments in early modern paris were the same way but worse, like you'd rent a bed next to the fireplace on the second floor and then a room up the staircase and around the corner but they didn't touch. the idea of "an apartment" as a single thing that's on one floor was 18th c not 17th. (then as now, everyone in paris rents) I assume there were still some of those divided rental situations though even through the 1700s, right? Especially at the low end of the market?
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Feb 4, 2019 06:15
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I believe that depending on the period it was very common for bishops or monasteries to rule regions as the temporal government/ feudal lord of the inhabitants
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Feb 4, 2019 06:24
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Clergy could be and often were both feudal lords within the structure of the church AND as separately as a layman under the Imperial structure.
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Feb 4, 2019 06:27
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Fuschia tude posted:Where can I read more about these ecclesiastical states? So, these were big properties owned by various religious orders and each one managed by a church ruler answering to a church superior, basically like any other feudal structure, and by "not united" you mean they were held in bits and pieces by several different organizations none of which coordinated? How does autonomous church territory work anyway, how did the Teutonic order manage to take over all this land and also get the imperial OK to conquer Lithuania and Russia The Teutonic Knights, I can't tell you much about, other than that Frederick II issued the Golden Bull of Rimini confirming their rule over Prussia. But most of the ecclesiastical states were states that were ruled by a Prince-Bishop, a Prince-Abbot, or a Prince-Provost. These were religious leaders...a Bishop or an Abbot, who was also secular ruler over the state. So, for instance, one of the ecclesiastical states of the HRE was the Archbishopric of Bremen (not to be confused with the Free City of Bremen, which ruled itself). The state of the Archbishopric of Bremen contained about a third of the Archdiocese of Bremen, and it was under the direct secular rule of the Bishop, who was advised by his council, and he had the right, as Prince, to collect taxes and tolls, administer justice, and do all the same things any other Prince or Duke in the HRE could do. He also, as Archbishop, had certain rights and responsibilities in the Church, separate from his secular rights and responsibilities.
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Feb 4, 2019 06:42
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Epicurius posted:(not to be confused with the Free City of Bremen, which ruled itself)
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Feb 4, 2019 06:49
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King John of Robinhood fame's younger son Richard was elected King of Germany and crowned Emperor of Rome. He paid so little attention to this, he was only actually in Germany a couple of times. His successor was the first Habsburg Emperor, who I think was elected at least partially in response to him being some random nobody, who wouldn't run off back to England after being crowned.
Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 07:31 on Feb 4, 2019 |
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Feb 4, 2019 07:27
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Some absolute madman uploaded a picture of a scale model of the Zell am Harmersbach train station to the German wikipedia instead of a picture of the real thing and for some reason it's the funniest thing I've ever seen. They have real pictures of just about everyfuckingthing else in the town. quote:Bahnhof von Zell am Harmersbach, Modell aphid_licker fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Feb 4, 2019 |
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Feb 4, 2019 15:36
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cheetah7071 posted:It's sort of a miracle that any power internal to that mess was able to straighten it out and turn it into a modern state I'm not sure Napoleon could be described as internal to it 
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Feb 4, 2019 15:41
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euphronius posted:Greek and English are both indo European. Surely you could have used some common roots to communicate lol
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Feb 4, 2019 17:33
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feedmegin posted:I'm not sure Napoleon could be described as internal to it Oh did napoleon do any sorting out? I thought he just abolished (or caused the abolishment of) the office of emperor and then Prussia and Austria spent a century sorting through the resulting mess.
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Feb 4, 2019 19:00
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cheetah7071 posted:Oh did napoleon do any sorting out? I thought he just abolished (or caused the abolishment of) the office of emperor and then Prussia and Austria spent a century sorting through the resulting mess. The Austrian Emperor not Napoleon technically abolished the title.
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Feb 4, 2019 19:11
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cheetah7071 posted:Oh did napoleon do any sorting out? I thought he just abolished (or caused the abolishment of) the office of emperor and then Prussia and Austria spent a century sorting through the resulting mess. When Napoleon set up the Confederation of the Rhine, he dissolved and merged a lot of the small German states. (The Kingdom of Westphalia was huge). When the Congress of Vienna met, they restored a bunch of the smaller states, but a lot stayed dissolved or were just given to Prussia. The new German Confederation was down to 39 states from the over 300 in the HRE.
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Feb 4, 2019 19:26
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HEY GUNS posted:ok but like One of the neat things about Kingdom Come Deliverance is the get into that. The main "town" has castles at either end controlled by different people (as it was at the time)
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Feb 4, 2019 19:53
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feedmegin posted:I'm not sure Napoleon could be described as internal to it
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Feb 4, 2019 20:21
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HEY GUNS posted:more HRE facts: the Diet's last official act was to dissolve itself, so Napoleon couldn't crown himself Emperor. It's the "you can't fire me I quit" of geopolitics, and I love it I love how the Habsburg Archduke just decided to make his own Empire with his own Title like he was Bender.
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Feb 4, 2019 20:28
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:I love how the Habsburg Archduke just decided to make his own Empire with his own Title like he was Bender.
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Feb 4, 2019 20:30
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And Bismarck's solution was to make Prussia really big and then dare anybody to say it doesn't count as Germany I wonder if there's any modern German-Austrian unification movements. Presumably nothing at high levels but.
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Feb 4, 2019 20:34
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cheetah7071 posted:And Bismarck's solution was to make Prussia really big and then dare anybody to say it doesn't count as Germany I think that well is just a little bit poisoned from the last time they tried it.
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Feb 4, 2019 20:41
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cheetah7071 posted:And Bismarck's solution was to make Prussia really big and then dare anybody to say it doesn't count as Germany Well there was the Anschluss. That was recent.
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Feb 4, 2019 20:41
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cheetah7071 posted:I wonder if there's any modern German-Austrian unification movements. Presumably nothing at high levels but. There's a faction in the Freedom Party that focuses on Austrians being "culturally German" and talk about pan-Germanism, but they're a minority. (Haider, at one point, called the idea of an Austrian nationality a monstrosity, but had to walk it back).
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Feb 4, 2019 20:47
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Does anyone in Austria even care about having an "Austrian nationality?" Anyone the EU is practically the HRE 2.0 complete with byzantine and trivially exploitable governance, so I'm not sure what Anschluss would actually accomplish in this day and age.
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Feb 4, 2019 20:56
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Squalid posted:Does anyone in Austria even care about having an "Austrian nationality?" Presuming not everyone in FPÖ is just talking poo poo about the Heimat, the FPÖ does. Presumably some subsection of the 1 in 4 Austrians who voted for them cares also.
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Feb 4, 2019 21:10
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Imagine being invested in being some wacky subset of German.
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Feb 4, 2019 21:26
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Squalid and anyone else interested here is a small presentation/lesson from one of my old professors going over shellmounds/middens and anthropogenic landscapes. Im trying to still find the crossection of the shellmound with the burials in it but Im fairly sure he got the image Im thinking about from the Hearst collection and that its not attatched to anything thats been digitized yet. Edit: Its actually in the link, though the quality is poo poo so you can barely make the burials out. They are on stratigraphic level VI and VII with a few scattered lower. Uwe, the excavator, notes you stop getting burials after that but cremation basically replaces it and you start getting ash and burnt human remains in the above levels. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Feb 4, 2019 |
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Feb 4, 2019 21:46
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Squalid posted:Does anyone in Austria even care about having an "Austrian nationality?" Anyone the EU is practically the HRE 2.0 complete with byzantine and trivially exploitable governance, so I'm not sure what Anschluss would actually accomplish in this day and age. Totally pointless grand gestures in the name of nationalism have a habit of being inexplicably popular.
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Feb 4, 2019 22:38
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SlothfulCobra posted:Totally pointless grand gestures in the name of nationalism have a habit of being inexplicably popular. It’s how the British Monarchy makes a living.
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Feb 4, 2019 22:45
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FreudianSlippers posted:Imagine being invested in being some wacky subset of German. Swiss German shall rise to the global language and culture, mark my words.
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Feb 4, 2019 22:48
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Squalid posted:Does anyone in Austria even care about having an "Austrian nationality?" Anyone the EU is practically the HRE 2.0 complete with byzantine and trivially exploitable governance, so I'm not sure what Anschluss would actually accomplish in this day and age. It would enrage Northern Germans, who already hate the thought of Bavaria being part of our nation. If Austria managed to negotiate a new Anschluss, tons of people would mass migrate down to the south, knife in hand, to prevent it by stabbing every single Austrian in the face.
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Feb 4, 2019 23:14
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Does Germany still have regional animosities? Are there those who long for the return of the Kingdom of Bavaria?
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Feb 4, 2019 23:37
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Bavaria is like Texas but with Germans
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Feb 4, 2019 23:43
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skasion posted:Bavaria is like Texas but with Germans This is terrifying.
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Feb 5, 2019 00:16
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I'm imagining ten gallon hats on top and black socks with sandals on the bottom, with pretzels in between.
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Feb 5, 2019 00:18
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texas had a lot of german immigration in the 19th century and still has its own (dying) dialect of germanGrand Fromage posted:Swiss German shall rise to the global language and culture, mark my words. which one though
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Feb 5, 2019 00:27
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skasion posted:Bavaria is like Texas but with Germans I thought that was New Braunfels.
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Feb 5, 2019 00:31
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FreudianSlippers posted:Imagine being invested in being some wacky subset of German.
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Feb 5, 2019 00:38
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Does Germany still have regional animosities? Are there those who long for the return of the Kingdom of Bavaria? And I have some friends who are from this one little region that was taken over by Saxony a longass time ago but which doesn't speak Saxon and isn't culturally Saxon and they are STILL salty about it edit: all of the ww1 related tombstones in the one cemetary i went to talked about "dying for the kingdom of saxony," the Reich wasn't mentioned this implies the existence of a Saxon Airforce, which: 
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Feb 5, 2019 |
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Feb 5, 2019 00:39
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HEY GUNS posted:edit: all of the ww1 related tombstones in the one cemetary i went to talked about "dying for the kingdom of saxony," the Reich wasn't mentioned When the German Empire was set up, one of the terms was that Saxony, Bavaria, and Württemberg would each get to keep their own armies.
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Feb 5, 2019 01:06
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Epicurius posted:When the German Empire was set up, one of the terms was that Saxony, Bavaria, and Württemberg would each get to keep their own armies.
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Feb 5, 2019 01:14
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