FrangibleCover posted:

godthefirebrandwasapieceofshit

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

What was the worst WWII plane that they made a lot of?

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

What was the worst WWII plane that they made a lot of?

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

What was the worst WWII plane that they made a lot of?

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

What was the worst WWII plane that they made a lot of?

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

What was the worst WWII plane that they made a lot of?

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

What was the worst WWII plane that they made a lot of?

StandardVC10 posted:

See, that is neither short nor stubby. It's just kind of a mess.

(Technically, the size of the vertical fin suggests that actually, it is a bit short in aerodynamic terms, but gently caress that, plane is still a monster.)

quote:

A lack of skilled workers to assemble the engines, depletion of high-strength alloy stocks for crankshafts and cylinder blocks, particularly the lack of nickel steel, as well as a decrease in engine oil quality all affected engine production and development.

The Lone Badger posted:

You'll see something like this paragraph in any discussion of any Axis vehicle. Did any Allied vehicle suffer in quality from material shortages the same way, or did they have enough of most everything?

quote:

One of the largest savings of scarce materials during World War II was accomplished through standardization of models, equipment and parts. This approach was broadly applied throughout industry with encouragement by the Conservation Division of the War Production Board. The advantages of standardization were shown in savings of materials; in reduced need for varieties of special-purpose machines, tools, dies, jigs and fixtures; in reduced inventories in stores and spare-parts houses; in accelerated output and improved labor productivity.

In the course of the war, the program brought about a reduction in the number of sizes of railroad car wheels and tires from 500 to 50. It eliminated 4,000 of 4,300 types and sizes of plywood. It reduced varieties of industrial power trucks from 221 to 50. Electric lamp styles were cut from 3,500 to 1,700; colors of lamps, from 13 to 3; voltages from 32 to 7; optional bases from 7 to 1. Types of radio tubes were reduced from 710 to 361. The electric lamp and tube programs conserved large quantities of nickel, mica, tin, lead, molybdenum, steel, and tungsten, and saved more than a million man-hours of labor.

quote:

It is almost axiomatic in engineering design that no material is wholly indispensable. Some substitute almost invariably can be found, and sometimes the substitute proves to have attractive qualities of its own. Thus, when German industry was faced with a shortage of copper, and could not obtain enough of the metal to use it for rotating bands on artillery shells, a “sintered” powdered iron impregnated with paraffine was substituted. This material was more costly than copper, in terms of manpower, but it caused less wear in large gun barrels.

quote:

Seventy-three technical committees on federal specifications had been established as early as 1942. W.P.E. assembled a file containing 40,000 such specifications and issued mandatory modifications and “emergency alternate specifications” by the hundreds. Thus, the use of lead-base babbitt metal instead of tin-base metal in merchant ships saved 500 long tons of tin a year. Some of the piping on vessels was made of steel instead of brass, thereby saving 15,000 tons of copper and brass each year. A shoe sole treating formula, used by the Quartermaster Corps, was applied to civilian shoe soles as well, extending each month the life of about 2,000,000 shoes by 25 per cent. Paper clips in government offices no longer were required to have a copper wash, and substitute fibers were used in government mimeograph paper to save 385,000 pounds of abaca.

Squalid posted:

How did French planes do during WWII?

quote:

Operational history
Upon evaluation, early deliveries were deemed unsuitable for combat operations, principally due to issues with the tailplane; thus, plans were laid for the first 157 production fighters to be stored awaiting modification, while additional production examples were built with the correction made.[9] Furthermore, the type was initially confined to performing training duties alone; prior to the outbreak of the Second World War, only a single squadron, allocated to the 1st Escadre de Chasse, received the type. Upon the eve of the conflict, around 249 aircraft had been manufactured; of these, roughly 123 aircraft had been accepted by the Armée de l'Air.[9] However, few of these were considered to be flyable, the majority missing their gunsights and propellers.[9]

On 26 September 1939, the first modified MB.152s were delivered to the French Air Force; the first of these fighters were allocated to active squadrons by early October and, by mid-November 1939, two separate Groupes de Chasse (fighter groups) had been equipped with 26 MB.152s each.[11] At this point, the type still demonstrated some unfavourable flight characteristics, such as during steep dives. Meanwhile, increasing numbers of MB.151 aircraft were being delivered to be squadrons for training purposes in advance of their anticipated conversion to the MB.152.[12] During the initial stage of the conflict, known as the Phoney War, very few engagements between the MB.152 and the aircraft of the Luftwaffe occurred; in this period, only a single kill of a Junkers Ju 88 was recorded.[13]

StandardVC10 posted:

The wood construction of the Mosquito was an evolution of techniques De Havilland had developed before World War II, so while metal shortages were a factor in its design they weren't the only factor, I don't think.

Jobbo_Fett posted:

Pretty terribly, production quality was really low on a lot of planes, to the point where some models just sat at manufacturing plants or at airfields because they either weren't accepted for military use, or problems developed after a short amount of usage, poo poo like faulty engines or bad wings. This was a major issue that, iirc, was mainly due to the fact that France nationalized all their production, and changing demands plus changing work methods/ethics/etc made QA very hard.

Even still, you had some planes like the MS-406/410 or the D.520 that managed to account fairly well for themselves when they got in the air, and foreign service of the MS-406, like the Finnish varient called the Morko Morane, did well against the Russians in the Winter War.


Edit: The LeO 45 series was also pretty good.



Oh, forgot the Bloch planes, here's the basic blurb on the 151:

Squalid posted:

This performance may explain why I can't recall ever hearing anything at all about the French air-force during the German invasion. Was it just a total nonentity during the war?

Gervasius posted:

Blackburn Roc. Like Defiant, but shittier.

FAUXTON posted:

Performance-wise, I'd say the Polikarpov Po-2. It was so slow and lovely that axis interceptors could barely fight the drat things since they'd stall out trying to position for a shot, but on the other hand the VVS leaned right the gently caress into how slow and lovely it was, and used it as a night bomber where they did their bombings while gliding without the engine running.

Platystemon posted:

The Fairey Swordfish should, by all rights, be bad. It’s a biplane that was obsolete before the start of the war.

Yet it was produced throughout the war and destroyed two battleships and more Axis shipping than any other model of plane.

Platystemon posted:

The Fairey Swordfish should, by all rights, be bad. It’s a biplane that was obsolete before the start of the war.

pthighs posted:

I like the idea of "Hey, this plane is dangerous, let's stop using it to fight and give it to people learning to fly!"

ponzicar posted:

I think the best use of that plane would have been to sell it to the Germans.

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

What was the worst WWII plane that they made a lot of?

goatsestretchgoals posted:

Obvious followup question: what was Omaha Beach like? You're right that SPR is my mental image of it, teach me otherwise.

Acebuckeye13 posted:

Let's take a look!







So right from the start, you can see that Omaha is a fairly wide, flat, and shallow beach. This made it an ideal place for landing craft, since it allowed them to get as close to the shore as possible before dumping off their load. However, as you can see, the beach is also a natural kill zone—while there were no giant concrete bunkers on the bluffs (the ones in SPR are actually modeled off an artillery observation bunker at Pointe du Hoc), the bluffs had a bunch of trenches and fortified positions where machine guns could fire straight down onto the beach. There were also fortifications on the beach, like so:









(Last two are from Utah, but similar fortifications were built on Omaha)

These bunkers are far less imposing than the SPR creations, but they were highly effective. They were angled so that thick concrete walls protected them from direct fire from the sea, and had machine guns and anti-tank guns that could fire effectively down the beach. They were also built in series so that the firing arcs from each bunker could cover the blind spot of the next bunker, so taking even one was an exceptionally arduous challenge.

So with that in mind, let's get to the famous picture, the one everyone knows:



It's about six in the morning on June 6th, 1944. You've just spent the past couple hours on a relatively small boat that's been rocking about in the surf, ingesting seawater and chomping down anti-seasickness pills. You are cold and miserable, and you know there's a good chance you might be about to die.

Before you is Omaha Beach. You are in the 1st Infantry Division, the Big Red One. You've been assigned to the sector of the beach called 'Easy Red', and your mission is to secure the draw that leads out of the beach. Capturing it is critical: the draws are the only way off the beach, and every moment it remains in enemy hands is a moment the Germans can sit on the bluffs and shoot you and your buddies to poo poo with heavy machine guns, mortars, and artillery.



Of course, that's if you've landed in the right place at all. The current is strong, and many boats have gone off course. While you've trained and prepared to hit one particular spot of beach, there's a good chance you might have drifted off course and landed at Fox Green or Fox Red and gotten mixed in with those assholes from the 29th ID, putting you out of command and in less than familiar territory.

But you're hoping that won't be a big deal. You've got tank support, after all, the DD Shermans with their canvas sides that allow them to float in the water. The Air Force has also prepared a massive aerial bombardment, which with luck should blast the Germans right off the bluffs and allow you to simply walk onto the beach untouched.

What you can't know, however, is that things have already started to go wrong. The DD Shermans were launched three miles from the beach, a far greater distance than they were designed to traverse. When the current pushed them off course like your Higgens boats, many tried to fight against the current and were swamped by the tide, with dozens of armor crewmen drowning in their tanks. The few that didn't fight the current will be landing on the beach far off course, and will be in no position to help you.

Likewise, the bombardment has done little to no damage against the Germans. While the B-26 Marauders assigned to support Utah Beach were allowed to fly parallel to the shore and managed to knock out a crucial German fortification, the B-17s assigned to bombard Omaha are flying in nearly perpendicular to the German positions. Out of concern for hitting friendly troops, the vast majority of the bombers will drop their loads too late, ravaging the French countryside but leaving the German positions intact.

And worst of all, while other beaches are either lightly defended or are defended by thinly reinforced units filled with barely adequate replacements, you'll be fighting the relatively fresh and decently trained 352nd Infantry Division, and they won't give up easy.

But there's no time to worry about that now. You've hit the beach. And it's absolute hell.

Right from the start, the Germans are pouring as much fire as they can at the approaching landing craft. Many of the LCVPs will get hit by mortars or anti-tank guns and burn abandoned on the beach, while others will disgorge their troops far too far from the shore out of fear of meeting the same fate. The surf is filled with half-submerged obstacles designed to wreck the landing craft: hedgehogs,, Belgian Gates, and logs with mines attached to them. They provide next to no cover at all, but they're the only source of protection along the entire beach.

Everything is going wrong. You're on the wrong sector of the beach, other units aren't where they're supposed to be, some haven't landed at all, and you have no tank support. Ships offshore are firing bombardments, but the vast majority are too far out to aim accurately. Many men are frozen in fear, others are pinned down by fire. The thick wall of obstacles prevent many from advancing, and the engineers carrying the explosives to remove them are either in the wrong place, haven't landed yet, or are already dead.

But you push forward, because you can do nothing else. Eventually, you make it to the shingle: a natural sea wall made up of small stones deposited by the tide near the base of the cliffs.



There, along the only shelter to be had along the entire beach, units try to reorganize, assess casualties, and collect their bearings. It's not easy: officers have taken heavy casualties, many radios have been destroyed or are non-functional, and those bastards up on the bluffs keep shooting at you. In many places, the fire is so thick that it's impossible to advance at all, and troops are forced to shelter in place for hours under the incessant MG fire. Tanks begin to make it onto the beach, but the thick layers of obstacles prevent them from moving far, and they take heavy losses from anti-tank guns. Before long, the beach becomes covered in wrecked landing vehicles, burning tanks, and dead and dying soldiers.



As the day goes on, the beach becomes even more of a disaster. The timetable is completely off, and reinforcement waves arrive to find that few, if any, of the units in front of them have managed to accomplish their initial objectives. Bulldozers and anti-aircraft vehicles arrive on the beach, wholly unsuited for the combat taking place in front of them. More and more men become bunched up amidst the obstacles and along the shingle, and for a few, horrifying hours it appears that the Germans may be able to stop the invasion in its tracks.

But then, things start moving. While the battleships and cruisers far out to sea remain ineffective, several destroyers begin sailing in suicidally close to provide direct fire support on the beach. One, the Frankford sails within a thousand yards of the shore, firing 5" shells at point blank range into German fortifications. A pair of M15 and M16 AAA vehicles that landed amidst the chaos pour fire into a bunker defending one of the draws, and manage to plant several 37mm AA shells directly into the firing slit. Hulking LCTs sail directly onto the beach in spite of oncoming fire, disgorging Sherman tanks directly onto the sand. And all along the beach, teams of infantry desperately advance on the fortified German positions, doing anything and everything to advance, yard by yard. Going over the sea wall, destroying the obstacles before them, and advancing up into the bluffs, isolated companies of infantry are able to find cover amongst the ragged terrain, and finally begin to wear down the German defenses. Before long, the 352nd begins to call for reinforcements, but there's none to be had—and soon, infantry from the 5th Ranger Battalion are able to summit the bluffs and advance several hundred yards inland. Two and a half hours after you landed on the beach, the first draw allowing vehicles to exit the beach is taken by American troops. Four hours in, LCT 30 sails directly onto the sand, beaching itself, crushing obstacles beneath it, and firing every weapon it has at the enemy, while destroyers behind it pound fire into the defending Germans, providing vital cover for engineers to clear obstacles. By 1100, much of the beach has been taken, though many German pockets still remain entrenched atop the bluffs.

By the end of the day, the beach has been taken at heavy costs. Between 2,000 to 5,000 troops are dead, dying, wounded, or missing, and infantry has only been able to push a few hundred yards out of the beach. The delicate timetable is in shambles; it will take some time for the beach to be cleared of obstacles and for reinforcements and supplies to be effectively landed as planed. But the Germans have been hurt just as badly, and once pushed from the beach have no ability to resist the landings.

Where Saving Private Ryan gets it wrong is that Omaha Beach wasn't a quick, bloody action, with infantry charging concrete bunkers. It as a long, slow, confused meatgrinder, with troops forced to advance agonizingly slowly against heavy German resistance, and success was due not just to individual courage of infantry units, but a sustained combined-arms effort where heroism and initiative was able to overcome both the German resistance and the absolute confused mess that was the landings.

Anyway, hope that paints a slight picture of how utterly hosed it was be on Omaha Beach.

Jobbo_Fett posted:

FAUXTON posted:

Performance-wise, I'd say the Polikarpov Po-2. It was so slow and lovely that axis interceptors could barely fight the drat things since they'd stall out trying to position for a shot, but on the other hand the VVS leaned right the gently caress into how slow and lovely it was, and used it as a night bomber where they did their bombings while gliding without the engine running.

Acebuckeye13 posted:

Amazing Omaha Beach Stuff

Jobbo_Fett posted:

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

Now do Utah Beach

“They landed in the wrong spot but it actually worked out better that way so yay.”

Acebuckeye13 posted:

Four hours in, LCT 30 sails directly onto the sand, beaching itself, crushing obstacles beneath it, and firing every weapon it has at the enemy, while destroyers behind it pound fire into the defending Germans, providing vital cover for engineers to clear obstacles.

quote:

The outcome of LCT 30’s landing? According to the Flotilla Commander’s action report, LCT 30 discharged its load of anti-aircraft half-tracks and, while retracting from the beach, was struck by an enemy shell knocking out all engines and flooding the engine room. It also hit an underwater obstacle, and the boat was abandoned. One of the crew was killed.

The more I have studied the more I suspect Stephen Ambrose spun a great romantic yarn in D-Day with something less than a scholar’s discipline for accuracy.

Don Gato posted:

Look if you survive training then obviously you're a good enough pilot any Germans you encounter will be no problem, when there actually are Germans in the sky.

SeanBeansShako posted:

Top-hole. Bally Jerry, pranged his kite right in the how's your father. Hairy blighter, dicky-birdied, feathered back on his Sammy, took a waspy, flipped over on his Betty Harper's and caught his can in the Bertie.