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Toshimo posted:W-w-why is her arm bare in panels 4 and 5, but clearly wrapped in the panel to the right? A edit: aw wait poo poo, that's Enchantress, right?
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Feb 5, 2019 00:08
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Toshimo posted:W-w-why is her arm bare in panels 4 and 5, but clearly wrapped in the panel to the right? That might be on the inker or colorist.
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Feb 5, 2019 00:14
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Skwirl posted:That might be on the inker or colorist. What does it tell you?
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Feb 5, 2019 00:15
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Feb 5, 2019 00:20
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Wow Batman don't gently caress your grandpa that's messed up
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Feb 5, 2019 00:22
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Alfred isn't his grandfather. He's his foster father.
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Feb 5, 2019 00:24
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Senior Woodchuck posted:Alfred isn't his grandfather. Alfred hosed Thomas Wayne's mother.
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Feb 5, 2019 02:23
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What was the name of that arc where some black-mask-folk were claiming Martha and Thomas were part of their villainous Eyes-Wide-Shut super-rich super-pervert secret society? I thought I remember one of them strongly implying that Alfred could be Bruce's father. I'm sure it was explained as all being a lie, but I at least liked the idea that Batman's parents might have also been Not That Nice.
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Feb 5, 2019 02:32
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_R.I.P. The Black Glove society who were all evil assholes who found out who Batman was and wanted to ruin his life for fun. The eventually tried to recruit the Joker to help and he laughed in their faces because he knew Batman was going to destroy them effortlessly.
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Feb 5, 2019 02:37
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Doc Hawkins posted:What was the name of that arc where some black-mask-folk were claiming Martha and Thomas were part of their villainous Eyes-Wide-Shut super-rich super-pervert secret society? I thought I remember one of them strongly implying that Alfred could be Bruce's father. I'm sure it was explained as all being a lie, but I at least liked the idea that Batman's parents might have also been Not That Nice. Court of Owls.
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Feb 5, 2019 02:38
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I like it when the rich people are bad. Batman is bad in many ways, that's fine. But his parents get to be saints? Obviously I'm not really serious, and Arrow and other things have done plenty of Sins of the Father stuff. But I would like to see some hay made from the line "Yes, father, I shall become a bat." What about his father made him able to project that idea? How do you believe super-nice people who loved you would have wanted you to do what he does, to himself as much as to others? So maybe Thomas Wayne could have had a bit of an edge, is all. I guess modern comics have gone the other way, stressing that, despite being adopted, Superman is totally his parents' kid, while despite being the Wayne's natural child, Batman wasn't truly raised by them, but remade himself in another image. A carven gargoyle perched on the corner of their tomb.
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Feb 5, 2019 03:01
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The Telltale Batman game had the Waynes not being good people because being a good person and a billionaire is nearly impossible.
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Feb 5, 2019 03:14
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Though they had them be bad in a kind of cartoonish way
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Feb 5, 2019 03:32
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CharlestheHammer posted:Though they had them be bad in a kind of cartoonish way So just like real life?
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Feb 5, 2019 03:51
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Doc Hawkins posted:What was the name of that arc where some black-mask-folk were claiming Martha and Thomas were part of their villainous Eyes-Wide-Shut super-rich super-pervert secret society? I thought I remember one of them strongly implying that Alfred could be Bruce's father. I'm sure it was explained as all being a lie, but I at least liked the idea that Batman's parents might have also been Not That Nice. Honestly the last ten years plus of comics have been running with "the Wayne's (mostly Thomas) were evil" We had Flashpoint* (not evil and very much effected by seeing Bruce die) then Earth 2 and then the Tell Tale games. I get the feeling there's another one I'm missing. But recently it has felt like the new Hot Take would be that Thomas and Martha Wayne were good people and their death made Gotham a worse place.
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Feb 5, 2019 08:57
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The Question IRL posted:We had Flashpoint* (not evil and very much effected by seeing Bruce die) then Earth 2 and then the Tell Tale games. I get the feeling there's another one I'm missing. There's some Batman side book where Bruce keeps flashing back and his dad's having an affair and he and Martha keep having fights about it but Bruce is young so he can't really comprehend what's going on but yeah I can't remember the name either
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Feb 5, 2019 13:40
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The Question IRL posted:Honestly the last ten years plus of comics have been running with "the Wayne's (mostly Thomas) were evil" Huh, I'm less on the fringe than I thought, but that makes sense. They could also do an FDR thing, introducing a broader Wayne family who are cackling industrialists that despise Bruce and/or his parents for being bleeding-heart fuckups.
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Feb 5, 2019 17:48
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In terms of sweeping retcons that try to square Batman's origins with the pretty self-evident fact that being a bilionaire is full-stop a lovely and evil thing to be, I think "problematizing the Waynes" is less interesting than "reimagining Batman as not being rich." The problem with the latter is that even if Bruce's parents are revealed to be evil/corrupt/depraved/etc., we still have Bruce Wayne as the figure of the benign billionaire who knows what's best for everyone. It doesn't solve any of the character's central narrative problems. Reinventing him and radically messing around with his origin so that he is not and never was rich obviously is much more disruptive of "canon," and frankly, I'm not 100% sure how recognizable the character would be. But I know Batman can be done, and done well, without high-tech gadgets and slick cars, and I know Batman can be done well without a huge focus on Bruce Wayne's playboy lifestyle. I think it would be interesting to see. Edit: Paul Pope's deeply flawed "Berlin Batman" story is maybe illustrative. Aside from, of course, Pope's art, the best and most effective thing about this story is that it explores the possibilities of a Batman who is, in his civilian guise, subaltern. Baruch Wayne has two secret identities-- he's Batman, but he's also Jewish, and what's more his bachelorhood is coded as queer, with his langourous poses and salmon-pink fur-collared robe. That is, he's everything that the Third Reich, the hovering and omnipresent force hanging over the story, considers "degenerate." He's fighting not against weirdo supervillains but against an unjust structural reality-- Comissioner Garten is he manifest bad guy of the piece. But what the story focuses on, and what people remember about-- and what makes it laughable in many ways-- is that Wayne is not only still rich, but the McGuffin of the story is his attempts to protect the writings of dipshit libertarian Ludwig von Mises from nazis. On the most basic level, when the story is good it is good because Bruce Wayne is on the backfoot socially, and when it's bad it's bad because Bruce Wayne is not only still wealthy, but his moral imperative within the story is explicitly to elevate and adulate wealth as such (complete with a nasty and totally hare-brained dig at socialism at the very end). How Wonderful! fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Feb 5, 2019 |
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Feb 5, 2019 17:58
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Archyduchess posted:In terms of sweeping retcons that try to square Batman's origins with the pretty self-evident fact that being a bilionaire is full-stop a lovely and evil thing to be, I think "problematizing the Waynes" is less interesting than "reimagining Batman as not being rich." The problem with the latter is that even if Bruce's parents are revealed to be evil/corrupt/depraved/etc., we still have Bruce Wayne as the figure of the benign billionaire who knows what's best for everyone. It doesn't solve any of the character's central narrative problems.
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Feb 5, 2019 18:08
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Archyduchess posted:In terms of sweeping retcons that try to square Batman's origins with the pretty self-evident fact that being a bilionaire is full-stop a lovely and evil thing to be, I think "problematizing the Waynes" is less interesting than "reimagining Batman as not being rich." The problem with the latter is that even if Bruce's parents are revealed to be evil/corrupt/depraved/etc., we still have Bruce Wayne as the figure of the benign billionaire who knows what's best for everyone. It doesn't solve any of the character's central narrative problems. That's kind of like what they did with Batman Beyond. It still relies on Bruce's super wealth, but both he and Terry are presented as being in an underdog position.
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Feb 5, 2019 18:14
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Keeshhound posted:That's kind of like what they did with Batman Beyond. It still relies on Bruce's super wealth, but both he and Terry are presented as being in an underdog position. Yeah. And by inverting the dynamic so that the protege figure was squarely the protagonist, we saw Wayne's money largely from the outside, largely from the perspective of somebody who lacked that privilege and could call him out and push back against some of the classic Batman tropes in a really satisfying way. To say nothing of the fact that, as you say, he and Terry are both underdogs the whole way through. The billionaire thing rankles less when the evil they're fighting is Worse Billionaires (this is why I liked the bits and pieces of story in the early aughts where Batman was set against President Luthor). And rereading my earlier post, uh, I'll acknowledge that I'm mostly just saying "bring back Brubaker's Catwoman," and that I'm totally fine sticking to that position.
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Feb 5, 2019 18:18
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It also helps that Beyond had a very clear undercurrent of "Bruce is a lonely, bitter old man because he completely dedicated himself to
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Feb 5, 2019 18:22
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Batman is very poor in Red Son. 
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Feb 5, 2019 18:28
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Keeshhound posted:That's kind of like what they did with Batman Beyond. It still relies on Bruce's super wealth, but both he and Terry are presented as being in an underdog position. It worked perfectly because Bruce was just a regular old-money millionaire while dudes like Blight were cyberpunk megacorp billionaires. And Terry was Peter Parker.
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Feb 5, 2019 18:49
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Doc Hawkins posted:Batman is very poor in Red Son. Hobo Batman in Red Son was amazing
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Feb 5, 2019 18:58
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Begemot posted:It worked perfectly because Bruce was just a regular old-money millionaire while dudes like Blight were cyberpunk megacorp billionaires. And then there was the JLU retcon for Terry that made him even more like Peter Parker. Because Terry was basically a clone.
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Feb 5, 2019 19:01
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Doc Hawkins posted:Batman is very poor in Red Son. Oh, but he was rich, comrade, rich! For having a hat so sexy surely makes one wealthy, in fashion and in friendships.
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Feb 5, 2019 19:08
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Archyduchess posted:In terms of sweeping retcons that try to square Batman's origins with the pretty self-evident fact that being a bilionaire is full-stop a lovely and evil thing to be, I think "problematizing the Waynes" is less interesting than "reimagining Batman as not being rich." The problem with the latter is that even if Bruce's parents are revealed to be evil/corrupt/depraved/etc., we still have Bruce Wayne as the figure of the benign billionaire who knows what's best for everyone. It doesn't solve any of the character's central narrative problems. He can be for sure but then a very basic Batman doesn't fit on the Justice League. ...I mean Batman hardly fits on the Justice League with the god-like powers that are there in the first place, but stripping him of all the gadgets that his wealth provides makes him even more out of place. Plus without Wayne money backing it you'll then have to explain where the ask the teleporters and poo poo are coming from. The government? Clark Kent hits the powerball? The Flash travels to the future and comes back with a sports almanac?
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Feb 5, 2019 19:36
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Brute Squad posted:And then there was the JLU retcon for Terry that made him even more like Peter Parker. That episode had a bunch of great moments, especially with Bruce and Ace, but whoo boy was that an unneeded and stupid retcon.
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Feb 5, 2019 19:44
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TwoPair posted:He can be for sure but then a very basic Batman doesn't fit on the Justice League. ...I mean Batman hardly fits on the Justice League with the god-like powers that are there in the first place, but stripping him of all the gadgets that his wealth provides makes him even more out of place. Plus without Wayne money backing it you'll then have to explain where the ask the teleporters and poo poo are coming from. The government? Clark Kent hits the powerball? The Flash travels to the future and comes back with a sports almanac? Lots of the super tech has been reverse-engineered from various aliens recently. The movies are terrible, but Cyborg is mostly made from a Motherbox there, and even in regular continuity I think he has enough New Gods tech to use boom tubes. Batman needs a source of gadgets, but he doesn't have to be part of the 1%. Roll him back to being a millionaire with a limited industrial connection rather than a billionaire and you probably get more interesting stories. Sure, he's a genius who can build a car shaped like his face, but it also lets you tell stories where something of his is broken, or something.
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Feb 5, 2019 19:58
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Samuringa posted:Hobo Batman in Red Son was amazing Please: Hobo Terrorist Batman.
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Feb 5, 2019 20:00
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TwoPair posted:Plus without Wayne money backing it you'll then have to explain where the ask the teleporters and poo poo are coming from. The government? Clark Kent hits the powerball? The Flash travels to the future and comes back with a sports almanac? What if you pull a Spider-man, and his tech is all stolen (either conceptually or whole cloth) from his supervillainous enemies and he's just better at using it?
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Feb 5, 2019 20:04
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Wasn't the "reinvention" Green Arrow in the 70s? A billionaire who realizes what his massive wealth has not only granted him but then gained a social conscience?
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Feb 5, 2019 20:08
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All your attempts to "fix" Batman are just getting you to Iron Man. Iron Man has spent the best part the last 2 decades complaining about how cash poor he is.
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Feb 5, 2019 20:16
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TwoPair posted:The Flash travels to the future and comes back with a sports almanac? I can 100% see this one happening.
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Feb 5, 2019 20:16
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TwoPair posted:He can be for sure but then a very basic Batman doesn't fit on the Justice League. ...I mean Batman hardly fits on the Justice League with the god-like powers that are there in the first place, but stripping him of all the gadgets that his wealth provides makes him even more out of place. Plus without Wayne money backing it you'll then have to explain where the ask the teleporters and poo poo are coming from. The government? Clark Kent hits the powerball? The Flash travels to the future and comes back with a sports almanac? Batman is Superman's Alfred.
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Feb 5, 2019 20:25
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TwoPair posted:He can be for sure but then a very basic Batman doesn't fit on the Justice League. ...I mean Batman hardly fits on the Justice League with the god-like powers that are there in the first place, but stripping him of all the gadgets that his wealth provides makes him even more out of place. Plus without Wayne money backing it you'll then have to explain where the ask the teleporters and poo poo are coming from. The government? Clark Kent hits the powerball? The Flash travels to the future and comes back with a sports almanac? I guess I have a few different responses to that: 1) The Question was terrific on JLU and he was basically just a derelict who happened to me a brilliant and tenacious investigator. 2) A less high-tech Batman could also fit in the JLU in the same way that Captain America, Hawkeye, Black Widow, etc. fit on the Avengers. It's a fantasy, a very capable human being can absolutely keep up with gods and aliens without doing much damage to the narrative. 3) I think there are a lot of ways to deal with the Justice League's money and equipment-- government or UN funding, yeah, or sponsorship by Themyscira or some place, or even money from some other character (although that just displaces the initial problem). Maybe it's just Kryptonian or Martian or Fourth World technology, or somebody like Zatanna or Dr. Fate teleports everybody around. Maybe they just don't have as many resources. Edit: I don't see how Iron Man of all people is the natural endpoint of a de-billionaired Bruce Wayne. Frankly I think the only gadgets he needs-- and even these are just what I'm most personally attached to-- are a grappling hook and Batarangs and maybe something like the Bat-signal. I like the Adam West Batman's utility belt full of scrappy, quirky little niche knick-knacks more than Brother Eye and a plane and a UFO and this that and the other. How Wonderful! fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Feb 5, 2019 |
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Feb 5, 2019 20:32
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Archyduchess posted:I guess I have a few different responses to that: What if the plane can be shot down with one bullet from a six-shooter?
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Feb 5, 2019 20:38
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Jonny Nox posted:All your attempts to "fix" Batman are just getting you to Iron Man. Iron Man has spent the best part the last 2 decades complaining about how cash poor he is. Food $200 Data $150 Rent $800 Iron Man Suits $3,600 Utility $150 someone who is good at the economy please help me budget this. my family is dying
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Feb 5, 2019 20:42
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Phy posted:Food $200 Stop buying Iron Man Suits
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Feb 5, 2019 20:43
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