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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:joe mccarthy was a cousin of his i believe, but "cousin joe" went too far in herbert's view. too big government. What is this gobbledygook post?
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Feb 5, 2019 01:59
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There's this entire granola conservative archetype you don't really find off the West Coast but it's absolutely a thing. It sounds like Herbert was one.
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Feb 5, 2019 02:18
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A_Bug_That_Thinks posted:Described as having hair like the karakul sheep, I'm comfortable saying Duncan was at least swarthy. Oh, qaraqul! So if the Harkonnen are Russian maybe he's Afghani.
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Feb 5, 2019 02:22
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I imagine that being so far into the future, having a surname originating from earth (from before the colonization of the galaxy) was a prestige thing. Sorta like romans claiming that they were totally trojans, or chinese people claiming 5000 of heritage.
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Feb 5, 2019 02:48
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libertarianism in Frank Herbert's day was way closer to anarchism or whatever before the Kochs and other assorted Randroids took the over movement in the late '70s it was still pretty stupid but it was a different, less capitalist type of stupid
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Feb 5, 2019 03:13
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dune is best read as a novel w/ a simple political message (heroes and messiahs bad) and shouldn't be forced too hard into the square holes of "which ideology is it the most like"
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Feb 5, 2019 03:31
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Arrhythmia posted:dune is best read as a novel w/ a simple political message (heroes and messiahs bad) and shouldn't be forced too hard into the square holes of "which ideology is it the most like" Don't say things like this too loudly on the internet.
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Feb 5, 2019 03:35
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Son of Sam-I-Am posted:Don't say things like this too loudly on the internet. But which Hogwarts house would Duncan Idaho go into?
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Feb 5, 2019 03:48
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Herbert was all about grassroots democracy. He talked about how every citizen should have a turn on decision making counsels and there would be no leaders.
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Feb 5, 2019 04:31
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Duncan went to Durmstrang
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Feb 5, 2019 06:43
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Arrhythmia posted:dune is best read as a novel w/ a simple political message (heroes and messiahs bad) and shouldn't be forced too hard into the square holes of "which ideology is it the most like"
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Feb 5, 2019 06:48
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I just finished children of dune and thought I'd look at the last few pages of this thread, just wanna say brutalist mcdonalds is a huge idiot nerd god drat lol
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Feb 5, 2019 06:54
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herbert was a speechwriter for sen. guy cordon, "the last dependably rock-solid conservative to represent the people of Oregon" according to oregon historical society.quote:One of a growing number of anti-New Deal/Fair Deal Republicans in the Senate, Cordon was a reliably conservative vote on most domestic and international issues, voting for the anti-labor Taft-Hartley Act and the isolationist Bricker Amendment. i think herbert today would really be into rand paul
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Feb 5, 2019 07:33
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:libertarianism in Frank Herbert's day was way closer to anarchism or whatever before the Kochs and other assorted Randroids took the over movement in the late '70s
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Feb 5, 2019 07:47
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:herbert was a speechwriter for sen. guy cordon, "the last dependably rock-solid conservative to represent the people of Oregon" according to oregon historical society. The term conservative implied different things back then than it does now. Hopefully this doesn't come off as too dickish, but I don't think you're really grasping the context of the terminology you're employing, especially in relation to political ideologies. I say this as someone born and raised in Oregon. Anyways, if you want a libertarian-leaning sci-fi writer, Heinlein's got you covered, but even he's divorced from the meaning/context of the term's usage in contemporary discussion/practice.
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Feb 5, 2019 09:17
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The more I see or hear politics discussed, the more I become a proponent of dropping labels and talking about policies in detail instead, since it seems like the labels have undergone so much change in the past, and are still undergoing so much change now, that nobody really knows what they mean.BeanpolePeckerwood posted:The term conservative implied different things back then than it does now. Hopefully this doesn't come off as too dickish, but I don't think you're really grasping the context of the terminology you're employing, especially in relation to political ideologies. I say this as someone born and raised in Oregon.
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Feb 5, 2019 16:28
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I want a mashup of Dune and Arrested Development. It could work with either the Atreides or the Harkonnens as the Bluth family stand-ins.
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Feb 5, 2019 16:30
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:herbert was a speechwriter for sen. guy cordon, "the last dependably rock-solid conservative to represent the people of Oregon" according to oregon historical society. So where are you getting "Libertarian" out of any of that? Before you said he was a Libertarian because he opposed Joe McCarthy, and Joe McCarthy was "too big government." (which, bizarrely, would make a bunch of not only Democrat politicians but also some of Joe's fellow Republicans Libertarians). Now he's a Libertarian because he wrote speeches for a conservative who supported decidedly non-Libertarian policies like Taft-Hartley (Milton loving Friedman argued that right-to-work laws were anti-market, for chrissakes). Stop using words when you don't know what they mean.
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Feb 5, 2019 16:46
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Frank did have personal politics that were focused on liberty and a good chunk of the dune series is built on a critique of authority structures, but it's not useful to compare him to modern right wing libertarianism. He held ideas that today would seem incongruous. However I'm on my way to work and I have no desire or time really to gather sources for this. You can look yourself or wait till I find time for it if you really care
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Feb 5, 2019 17:03
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whydirt posted:I want a mashup of Dune and Arrested Development. It could work with either the Atreides or the Harkonnens as the Bluth family stand-ins. Leto: What have we always said is the most important thing? Paul: Spice! Leto: ...No. House Atreides. Paul: Oh right! I thought you meant of the things you eat.
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Feb 5, 2019 17:24
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D. Ebdrup posted:The more I see or hear politics discussed, the more I become a proponent of dropping labels and talking about policies in detail instead, since it seems like the labels have undergone so much change in the past, and are still undergoing so much change now, that nobody really knows what they mean. I mean, fair enough, I'm not saying Heinlein wasn't complex and ever fluid in his analyses and ideas, but when you write one of the most prominent tales of libertarian revolution of all time, that makes you slightly more libertarian than a dude who studies whether grass can grow in sand.
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Feb 5, 2019 22:05
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Arrhythmia posted:dune is best read as a novel w/ a simple political message (heroes and messiahs bad) and shouldn't be forced too hard into the square holes of "which ideology is it the most like" BUT HOW ELSE WILL WE KNOW IF IT'S OKAY TO READ HIM?
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Feb 5, 2019 22:16
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:I mean, fair enough, I'm not saying Heinlein wasn't complex and ever fluid in his analyses and ideas, but when you write one of the most prominent tales of libertarian revolution of all time, that makes you slightly more libertarian than a dude who studies whether grass can grow in sand.
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Feb 6, 2019 01:03
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Nothing is ever gonna make me care about somebody's dumb politics and I'm still gonna read their fiction if I like it.
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Feb 6, 2019 01:08
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in the cat who walk through walls hazel stone who was a granny in the rolling stones bitches constantly about how authoritarian the moon has gotten Mod edited for clarity: in The Cat Who Walks Through Walls, Hazel Stone, who was a granny in The Rolling Stones, bitches constantly about how authoritarian the moon has gotten. Somebody fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Feb 6, 2019 |
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Feb 6, 2019 01:10
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I don't see anyone itt dedicated to saying dune is good saying that it's bad and people shouldn't read it.
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Feb 6, 2019 01:12
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I was more trying to express that I think it's prolly the worst kind of bookchat but I'm a moron and prolly worded things too aggressively. Honestly half the time it turns into people calling an author's works bad because the author may or may not have been bad but you're right everybody's not that uptight about it in here.
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Feb 6, 2019 01:59
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Ratatozsk posted:Leto: Now I got this whole Mr. Kwisatz Haderach bit in my head
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Feb 6, 2019 02:29
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Pimblor posted:in the cat who walk through walls hazel stone who was a granny in the rolling stones bitches constantly about how authoritarian the moon has gotten
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Feb 6, 2019 03:11
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D. Ebdrup posted:The more I see or hear politics discussed, the more I become a proponent of dropping labels and talking about policies in detail instead, since it seems like the labels have undergone so much change in the past, and are still undergoing so much change now, that nobody really knows what they mean. Looks like someone's on the name-chain
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Feb 6, 2019 07:51
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It is true that sometimes these words get slopped around imprecisely. It is also true that Herbert had some ancient Reverend Mothers with Other Memory turn to the camera and do that mallard filmore "liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals!!" strip in Chapterhouse.
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Feb 6, 2019 08:08
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exmachina posted:The revolution was Capital-L Libertarian (for the times). But Heinlein recognized that these situations never last. And Hazel Stone calling a govt authoritarian might not mean said Govt is what you and I call authoritarian. Yeah, "too authoritarian" for her encompasses a lot of things, including "failed her ship on inspection over Cr 50 worth of air filter spares".
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Feb 6, 2019 08:17
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mllaneza posted:Yeah, "too authoritarian" for her encompasses a lot of things, including "failed her ship on inspection over Cr 50 worth of air filter spares". Sounds more Bureaucratic than authoritarian. I don't know what 'Cr 50" is, but I am assuming its like 50 cents or something low.
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Feb 6, 2019 08:37
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A_Bug_That_Thinks posted:Looks like someone's on the name-chain
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Feb 6, 2019 12:36
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what is filmbase supposed to be? future-paper? e-ink readers? holographic poo poo?
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Feb 6, 2019 15:14
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Temaukel posted:what is filmbase supposed to be? future-paper? e-ink readers? holographic poo poo? For being a science fiction book, Dune is almost completely absent of technology that isn't distinguishable from magic - yet, I don't for a second buy the argument that Dune is fantasy. If anything, it's converse coalary of how Star Wars being Le Morte d'Arthur set in space - although I may need a bit more time to formulate it into words.
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Feb 6, 2019 16:19
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The argument that Dune isn't sci-fi but 'science fantasy' never made much sense to me, especially when the people who claim it is science fantasy generally peg it there under a restrictive set of guidelines that means most contemporary works of sci-fi wouldn't fit in the genre either. For example, things like: prescience doesn't exist, there's no way Spice could do all that it does, etc. It feels like it ignores the core of the series - an exploration of the effects of prescience on society, examining the idea of a hero, discussing socio-political stuff, etc - and puts too much emphasis on the devices that enable it.
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Feb 6, 2019 16:26
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D. Ebdrup posted:I suppose every single time I've read it, I've taken it that it meant propaganda film. are filmbooks made out of filmbase? those sound like e-readers.
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Feb 6, 2019 16:27
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Dune is deliberately schizophrenic with the technology with the implication that the Jihad means their development and priorities are radically different from what we take for granted now. Quite possibly their medical science and engineering are very advanced, the Fremen are said to manufacture Stillsuits using sophisticated engineering and design. Thing is in Dune is that people aren't at all implied to be the ignorant noble savages with the occasional effete/eccentric intellectual you expect from a fantasy, post-apocalyptic or feudal setting, in fact given Spice and Mentats being a thing (and Paul is iirc noted to be a Mentat or at least use their exercises) most of the characters seem to be very intelligent, having private languages and all. I think Dune is meant to be styled more after historical fiction, especially given it takes a lot of influence from historical literature. But also especially the first book recalls religious scripture/fiction, especially with the prescience elements. And the while Jihad element resulting in a society necessarily shaped by technology it lacks as much as technology it has. I'd say it very much falls into science fiction of a more classical kind than more modern stuff. And someone did say it's in many ways a response to the Foundation series that inverts its themes. Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Feb 6, 2019 |
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Feb 6, 2019 16:31
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Alright, so I think I've managed to remember the logic I once came up with for why Dune is science fiction: Dune is the exploration of a field of science (ecology) set in a fictional world, and what pressures that would force upon a people as seen through the lens of a set of characters. Of course, it's also many other things including Herbert railing against demagogues. Another answer, of course, could be that Dune is science fiction and fantasy as it "can be in many places at once". Temaukel posted:are filmbooks made out of filmbase? those sound like e-readers. BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Feb 6, 2019 |
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Feb 6, 2019 16:34
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