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I'm not sure it's valid to say the Hobbit "isn't" part of the world of the Silmarillion when there's such clear markers of continuity. You have to start really heavily privileging extremely disputable markers of authorial "intent" over clear reader perceptions to get to that place.
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Feb 7, 2019 02:01
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm not sure it's valid to say the Hobbit "isn't" part of the world of the Silmarillion when there's such clear markers of continuity. You have to start really heavily privileging extremely disputable markers of authorial "intent" over clear reader perceptions to get to that place. You could make a decent case that it isn't part of the world described in the eventually-published Silmarillion. I wouldn't, but it it could be done.
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Feb 7, 2019 02:35
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Oh it’s def part of the published Silmarillion I was using the term as shorthand for his World he had been working on for years with his epic poems and the like before he wrote the Hobbit.
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Feb 7, 2019 02:37
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LOTR literally positions the text of The Hobbit as a set-to-writing version of the semi-fanciful tales that Bilbo told his weird little circle of proteges about his expedition to Wilderland. Bilbo is therefore retroactively supposed to have been an untrustworthy narrator in The Hobbit. Frodo sees through Bilbo's ruse about the birthday present and gets the truth out of him. The Hobbit is presented in LOTR as a fictionalized memoir written within the real world of Silm/LOTR Middle-earth.
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Feb 7, 2019 02:44
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skasion posted:LOTR literally positions the text of The Hobbit as a set-to-writing version of the semi-fanciful tales that Bilbo told his weird little circle of proteges about his expedition to Wilderland. Bilbo is therefore retroactively supposed to have been an untrustworthy narrator in The Hobbit. Frodo sees through Bilbo's ruse about the birthday present and gets the truth out of him. The Hobbit is presented in LOTR as a fictionalized memoir written within the real world of Silm/LOTR Middle-earth. None of this does answer the present issue of Sting's nature and origin though. Either Bilbo is wrong and is unreliably relating the story, or he is right and they did indeed find swords from Gondolin in a troll hoard. I know this was discussed before, but how while how unique would those swords have actually been, ignoring more elaborate history and just as "first age" elven swords. A whole bunch of elves lived through the first age, and would have had arms and armor from that period. Presumably as the war of wrath proceeded, even more were being made and lost, since the elves would not be staying at the front anymore and likely were based out of what would become the Noldorian holdings in Eregion. Once things finally ended its not like everything just disappeared, presumably a bunch of that same stuff got used in the Second Age and the Third. Given the propensity for Providence in LOTR, I could see an argument for those swords popping up from some long forgotten dragon or troll horde shortly before The Hobbit for them to find. I guess what I'm trying to discuss is if Elrond would be particularly moved to claim those swords as his own. Yeah they are from his place of birth but the Dwarves found them fair and square, and he has all kinds of old swords made by elven smiths in Rivendell. WoodrowSkillson fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Feb 7, 2019 |
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Feb 7, 2019 03:14
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I mean it can’t possibly be Turgon’s. Glamdring. The real Turgon not the reused name Turgon from the Hobbit.
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Feb 7, 2019 03:17
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm not sure it's valid to say the Hobbit "isn't" part of the world of the Silmarillion when there's such clear markers of continuity. You have to start really heavily privileging extremely disputable markers of authorial "intent" over clear reader perceptions to get to that place. It was retconned back into the larger world and myths yes. But when written the Hobbit “merely” heavily borrowed from them. Murkwood is Doriath and Thranduil is Thingol and the Heart of the Mountain is a Silmaril and so on. Throw away references to Gondolin and so on. Gondolin is a nice word. It sounds cool. He started writing the LOTR as set apart from his myths as well but in an early draft of what Became the fellowship (specifically the scene on Weathertop) decided to make the universe of LOTR concretely part of the larger world of the stories he wrote (which weren’t always all that consistent themselves)
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Feb 7, 2019 03:22
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WoodrowSkillson posted:None of this does answer the present issue of Sting's nature and origin though. Either Bilbo is wrong and is unreliably relating the story, or he is right and they did indeed find swords from Gondolin in a troll hoard. Gondolin was a pretty big place.
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Feb 7, 2019 03:26
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A big place with, I presume, a big armory.
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Feb 7, 2019 03:28
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Razed and sacked by fire breathing mechanical dragons and (wingless) Balrogs . Which reminds me Glorfindal in LOTR started out as not being Glorfindal from Gondolin. I don’t know why exactly he left the name the same as it really strange. I guess it somewhat makes sense. Didn’t he write a letter about retconning Glorfindal ?
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Feb 7, 2019 03:32
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I prefer Tolkien's artisanal, handcrafted retconning and continuity issues over that mass-produced hollywood stuff.
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Feb 7, 2019 03:36
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I thought so, I think its explicit that Glorfindel got out of the Halls of Mandos and is chilling with Elrond. Of course he ends up not doing much given the events of LOTR.
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Feb 7, 2019 03:36
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Tree Bucket posted:I prefer Tolkien's artisanal, handcrafted retconning and continuity issues over that mass-produced hollywood stuff. He’s really good at retconning Reading the hobbit, LOTR and the published Sil from 2019 or whenever and it’s pretty seamless.
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Feb 7, 2019 03:38
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euphronius posted:Razed and sacked by fire breathing mechanical dragons and (wingless) Balrogs . What this is is just Tolkien reusing some elf characters he had envisioned for something that he didn't think he could ever publish. Glorfindel and Legolas are both re-imaginings of the characters of those names in Fall of Gondolin. Later (much later, actually not long before he died) he wrote the essay "Glorfindel" which basically says "look, this could be just two guys with the same name, but elves don't reuse names so actually it's the same guy".
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Feb 7, 2019 04:11
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I kind of like the idea of Sting and Glamdring and Orcrist being chunks of steel several thousand years old.
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Feb 7, 2019 04:22
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Nessus posted:My impression is that Sting was of old manufacture but it was essentially a side-arm for some long dead elf and had no particular moral valence or great deeds attached to it. It was unique, if anything, because Bilbo named it Sting and it eventually slew Shelob. That's a more worthy piece of lore than "oh and BTW it was the property of Elberel-Jackof of the North Anduin Jackofs two ages and one continent ago." Tolkien actually leaves it unclear whether Sam killed Shelob or not. He wounds her and blinds her with Galadriel's phial and then she runs away.
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Feb 7, 2019 04:36
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Elrond just strictly follows the precedent set in the case of Finders v Keepers
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Feb 7, 2019 04:36
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webmeister posted:Elrond just strictly follows the precedent set in the case of Finders v Keepers I don't know what the Sindarin for "losers weepers" is, but I bet it's hauntingly beautiful and redolent of starlight upon the sea glimpsed through, I don't know, oaks or something.
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Feb 7, 2019 05:41
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I don't get what the problem with Gandalf just having the Glamdring is? Like, people have pointed out that Elrond has the kind of humility that would lead him to not reclaim it, and he came off as wise enough to know that it would be well used in Gandalf's hands.
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Feb 7, 2019 06:47
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Did people who lived on Eressea and the Teleri ever actually go into Valinor proper? From the text it kind of seems like they stick to the places they live and don't really go past Tirion and hang out with Manwe like the Vanyar seem to do
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Feb 7, 2019 07:46
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skasion posted:What this is is just Tolkien reusing some elf characters he had envisioned for something that he didn't think he could ever publish. Glorfindel and Legolas are both re-imaginings of the characters of those names in Fall of Gondolin. Later (much later, actually not long before he died) he wrote the essay "Glorfindel" which basically says "look, this could be just two guys with the same name, but elves don't reuse names so actually it's the same guy". The way I understand it is at first it was just “accidentally” two different elves with the same name but then he liked them being the same guy and retconned it. So glorfindal is both different and the same.
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Feb 7, 2019 13:32
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The problem with it being Turgons sword beyond Elrond not claiming it, is that Turgon died in a collapsing tower beset by weird machine dragons and balrog and was then buried under rubble (and probably burnt and melted) in a area that eventually sank to the bottom of an ocean.
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Feb 7, 2019 13:36
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euphronius posted:The problem with it being Turgons sword beyond Elrond not claiming it, is that Turgon died in a collapsing tower beset by weird machine dragons and balrog and was then buried under rubble (and probably burnt and melted) in a area that eventually sank to the bottom of an ocean. The text specifies "that the King of Gondolin (Turgon) once wore." Maybe it was, like, his Sunday go to meeting sword. Or his work casual sword. Or a sword that he literally wore once then gave to a retainer.
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Feb 7, 2019 13:43
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The text specifies "that the King of Gondolin (Turgon) once wore." Maybe it was, like, his Sunday go to meeting sword. Or his work casual sword. Or a sword that he literally wore once then gave to a retainer.
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Feb 7, 2019 13:46
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The text specifies "that the King of Gondolin (Turgon) once wore." Maybe it was, like, his Sunday go to meeting sword. Or his work casual sword. Or a sword that he literally wore once then gave to a retainer. I suppose but likely all retainers died in Gondolin and were burned and sank to the bottom of the sea too. Or died in the Havens soon after. You can construct a theory that the sword is literally Turgons but I say the evidence weighs heavily against it to the point where it isn’t probable. I think the best evidence in this regards is Lord of the Rings makes no mention of this Gondolin provenance regardless of argued Valaran providence.
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Feb 7, 2019 13:52
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Shibawanko posted:Did people who lived on Eressea and the Teleri ever actually go into Valinor proper? From the text it kind of seems like they stick to the places they live and don't really go past Tirion and hang out with Manwe like the Vanyar seem to do I think the Teleri at least could. They took up the invitation to Valinor after all. Interesting question whether the exiles on Eressea were allowed to enter back into Tirion. euphronius posted:The problem with it being Turgons sword beyond Elrond not claiming it, is that Turgon died in a collapsing tower beset by weird machine dragons and balrog and was then buried under rubble (and probably burnt and melted) in a area that eventually sank to the bottom of an ocean. It was a sacked city, I'm sure the rubble got very thoroughly looted. Nessus posted:He left Biter and Beater at his winter house and was using rear end-Kicker and Dragon-Fucker to fight the dragons. Now this is pro theory.
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Feb 7, 2019 13:56
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Looted by whom? The few survivors left and went to the havens. It was a hidden city and presumably occupied by Morgoths forced until the war of wrath. But even if you say looted you are inventing things never talked about. It’s possible it was looted but I think he evidence more heavily points to it just being old elven sword.
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Feb 7, 2019 14:15
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On the other hand, the universe also features a sentient ring and a talking sword. Sounds like Glamdring was making its way to Elrond the same way the Ring is making its way to Sauron
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Feb 7, 2019 14:37
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euphronius posted:Looted by whom? The few survivors left and went to the havens. It was a hidden city and presumably occupied by Morgoths forced until the war of wrath. By orcs? traditionally the wealth of a sacked city is seized by the conquering army. This is obviously what Tolkien was envisioning: quote:”Whence did the trolls get them, I wonder?” said Thorin looking at his sword with new interest.
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Feb 7, 2019 14:39
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euphronius posted:I mean it can’t possibly be Turgon’s. Glamdring. Probably one of loads of replicas sold to edgy Elf teens by the tourist-tatsmiths of the First Age.
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Feb 7, 2019 14:41
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The orcs you need to do the looting were destroyed by the valar and sunk to the bottom of the ocean. If they could even touch the swords which I doubt. It would more probably be “evil” men aligned with Morgoth who migrated back east after the sack of Gondolin and before the war of wrath. But again, no evidence of this. I suppose it could have been dwarves too.
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Feb 7, 2019 14:42
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euphronius posted:The orcs you need to do the looting were destroyed by the valar and sunk to the bottom of the ocean. The end of the first age is such an enormous and little-discussed process that I have no difficulty believing stuff got plundered right out of Beleriand. The War of Wrath is longer than the Vietnam War and the War on Terror combined. And we know that the gods’ victory was far from total genocide of the forces of Angband. I don’t think Glamdring and Orcrist are inimical to orcs in the sense you’re suggesting. They’re inimical to orcs if you stab the orcs with them. They’re not silmarils that toast you for the least impropriety.
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Feb 7, 2019 14:52
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skasion posted:The end of the first age is such an enormous and little-discussed process that I have no difficulty believing stuff got plundered right out of Beleriand. The War of Wrath is longer than the Vietnam War and the War on Terror combined. And we know that the gods’ victory was far from total genocide of the forces of Angband. Orcs might even think it's cool to have a perma-glowing weapon.
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Feb 7, 2019 14:56
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Fine but again we are now inventing things to make it work.
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Feb 7, 2019 14:58
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euphronius posted:The orcs you need to do the looting were destroyed by the valar and sunk to the bottom of the ocean.
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Feb 7, 2019 14:58
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Who's the better Sting, the musician, the wrestler or the sword
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Feb 7, 2019 15:36
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double posting like it's 2007
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Feb 7, 2019 15:47
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euphronius posted:Fine but again we are now inventing things to make it work. While you seem determined to ignore actual words in the texts to make your "nuh uh" theory fit.
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Feb 7, 2019 15:50
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I’m not ? I’m explicitly referencing them as my primary support.
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Feb 7, 2019 15:54
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skasion posted:The end of the first age is such an enormous and little-discussed process that I have no difficulty believing stuff got plundered right out of Beleriand. The War of Wrath is longer than the Vietnam War and the War on Terror combined. And we know that the gods’ victory was far from total genocide of the forces of Angband. Orcs stomp on Lembas in Lotr and Gollum chokes on it and hates it when he tries to eat it. It's not a far leap from there for me to imagine that Orcs handling Elvish weapons would feel physically repulsed by them. In fact that happens in the Hobbit. The Great Goblin freaks out when he sees the Elvish swords and that's when he tries to kill the Dwarves. Granted I don't think it's said then that is a physical reaction. It's more like the type of reaction someone might have to seeing a hate symbol or something like that. But a lot of the ideas in the Hobbit weren't fully fleshed out so it wouldn't surprise me at all if Tolkien would have written that differently after scoping out his world rules. Also don't the Uruk Hai not even take Merry and Pippins swords? They just chuck them, right? Why, if the swords are valuable? Clearly they're repulsed by them. And then there's the whole thing about Aragorn threatening the door guard that anyone else who handles his blade will die. I'm sure that's partially Aragorn just being a dick and saying hey don't touch my ride man but given the type of power material items have in Lotr it might even be true.
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Feb 7, 2019 16:32
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