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does it matter if JJ blew up Coruscant in particular? he blew up the fleeting image of victory from the end of (the SE version of) Return of the Jedi. the villains' triumph mirrors and undoes the heroes'. if you're going to say canon doesn't matter (and imo it doesn't), the go ahead and let go of canon. it doesn't have to be the explicitly named same thing for symbols to match each other.
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Feb 11, 2019 02:36
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Cnut the Great posted:I never claimed that Lucas's explication of these concepts are scientifically rigorous in their specific formulation. Wisdom is in this exchange is signifying some sort of essential quality which the droids lack, which is bound up with the connection to a mystical force field which doesn't actually exist in our world. Lucas communicates this lack by connecting it to wisdom and creativity, but these are really just signifiers for the scientific concept of consciousness. There's no more a contradiction here than when Lucas connects Han Solo's and Darth Vader's ability to "see the light" spiritually with their literal ability to see ocularly. You might as well be SMG objecting to that metaphor by insisting that it would imply that blind people are necessarily spiritually deficient. cnut droids in Star Wars are not computers, earth human computer science is not applicable in understanding them. Like lmao I thought you were invoking Searle as a philosopher but you’re over here trying to deny the obvious personhood of fictional characters in a fictional universe because strong AI is not something we here on earth can achieve, or see a way towards achieving, with transistors and Boolean functions. Star Wars, if you recall, takes place a long time ago in a galaxy far away. As far as we know transistors and Boolean functions do not exist there. Just like all the aliens, droids are merely a visible minority in Star Wars—people who speak different languages, eat different foods, and wear different clothes, and are easily othered because of it.
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Feb 11, 2019 02:37
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i love that this thread that is nominally about Star Wars has turned into two completely batshit insane arguments, one of which is about the loving Chinese Room thought experiment for some reason and the other is about whether or not Jakku and Tattooine are actually in fact the literal same planet like, I love you guys, but there's a reason why we have a rep on the rest of the forums for totally nuts galaxy-brain takes on things and... yeah, this is basically it in a nutshell
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Feb 11, 2019 02:41
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I love how "dennys map" is a thread-exclusive star wars meme
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Feb 11, 2019 02:45
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like you can write your own extended universe, or make your own Bigger Luke theory about how two different places are actually the same, but ultimately this isn't true:wyoming posted:Thematically there's no difference to the two planets, tatooine in 1977 is the middle of nowhere, sure, but in 2015 it's the skywalkers' homeworld. if jakku is tatooine, it ceases to be nowhere to the viewer who is even passingly familiar with the series as a whole. plus the part where jakku has its own thematic stuff going on, like the shadow of a previous generation's wreckage, or being a place so insignificant that nobody cared about the wrecks of ships crash landing there.
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Feb 11, 2019 02:46
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Cease to Hope posted:plus the part where jakku has its own thematic stuff going on, like the shadow of a previous generation's wreckage
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Feb 11, 2019 02:56
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wyoming posted:Well Star Wars starts out with a space battle over Tattoonie (even a deleted opening of Luke watching it through space-binoculars). TFA opens on a planet that features the aftermath of a space battle. We see buildings around crashed in ships in the original Star Wars, that and the jawa follows with the whole scavenger society in TFA. I also like the point that Finn's exasperated line "why does everyone want to go back to Jakku!" turns into a meta-joke when you change it to Tatooine.
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Feb 11, 2019 03:16
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Martman posted:But TFA takes place years after the original trilogy... so Tattooine would likely also be existing in the shadow of a previous generation's wreckage by that time. luke lives in a space farmhouse and works in a space barn despite that film similarly being set in the aftermath of a devastating war. likewise, despite being surrounded by the legacy of the previous war, it is concealed from him, and takes the form of generally kindly but protective elders (which the new war cruelly rips from him). rey is surrounded and dwarfed and visually overwhelmed by the legacy of war, which is cold, dead machines, and the viewer is never pushed to be sympathetic to her desire to return to them. tatooine is alive and bizarre. jakku is old and sterile and coldly familiar and dead. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Feb 11, 2019 |
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Feb 11, 2019 03:21
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actually, not to get all jivjov up in here, but there actually is a crashed ship featured on tatooine in ANH https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Dowager_Queen
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Feb 11, 2019 03:25
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Cease to Hope posted:tatooine in 1977 is the middle of nowhere, sure, but in 2015 it's the skywalkers' homeworld. if jakku is tatooine, it ceases to be nowhere to the viewer who is even passingly familiar with the series as a whole. Jakku was the site of some finale battle between the rebels and the empire, it was already somewhere. It's nowhere to Rey and Luke, just the shithole they grew up. The weird religious dude was there because it was somewhere to him.  "The shadow of a previous generation's wreckage"
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Feb 11, 2019 03:27
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a background object from a panning shot in the special edition? alas, I am undone
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Feb 11, 2019 03:29
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Another key piece of evidence is that, when you break down the plot of the two ST films, Luke’s New Jedi Temple was located on Jakku. That’s what Max Von Sydow was investigating. It makes little sense for Luke to build his temple in a random garbage dump - but it makes perfect sense if he built it to honour the birthplace of Anakin Skywalker (a central figure in his particular sect).
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Feb 11, 2019 03:37
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wyoming posted:It's nowhere to Rey and Luke, just the shithole they grew up. it's not nowhere to luke. his family and friends live there. even after his family is a smoldering mess and he sells everything he owns that could attach him to tatooine, it's still "back home" where he fondly remembers learning to fly and shoot. it's "nowhere" to him because he resents his safety and comfort, not understanding the price at which it was earned (or even his own ignorance of the danger and diversity of the next town over). rey, on the other hand, is clinging to the empty promise of something long gone. she's scavenging scraps from it, has carved out her own lonely space in it, and ventures out of it only to interact with people in the most transactional way. even when someone (a droid, so maybe not a person proper) attempts to appeal to her on an emotional level, she's tempted to return to that same transactional way of interacting with the world. luke resents something we are meant to see as wonderful and fantastic, and either gains an appreciation of it or forgets himself when he gets excited. rey longs to return to something cold and dead and old (and eventually learns to let go). to say that tatooine's motley cosmopolitan alien slums and comfortable space farms are thematically similar to jakku's tent settlements and towering ruins means you stopped at the sand.
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Feb 11, 2019 03:44
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i mean, there's a society on tattooine of scavengers who eke out a difficult existence on the fringes of society and who are experts in staff combat the natural conclusion, then, is that rey is one of the sand people - the last of the 'women and children too' that anakin slaughtered. that's why her parents aren't coming back.
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Feb 11, 2019 04:01
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on one hand, that's kind of a neat fanfic prompt on the other, it undermine's TLJ's whole deal of characters being special on their own, rather than from their proximity to the holy bloodline
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Feb 11, 2019 04:05
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Cnut the Great posted:This is like saying that because Karl Marx pulled from history when writing Das Kapital that it isn't constrained to being interpreted within the author's ideology. Of course it is. You can note flaws in Marx's arguments, disagree with the premises, and elaborate on his thoughts to develop your own ideas, but that has to do with your reaction to the work, not the message the work itself is communicating. Lucas didn't recreate history when he made the Star Wars films. He took his own personal, subjective, selective interpretation of history and plastered it on the screen in a way which reflected his own view of the world. The success with which he did so can be debated, but there can be no doubt that the semantic content of the Star Wars films is necessarily limited by the individual(s) arranging the signifiers. They are not free to be read however you please. George Lucas's view of the world is not the same thing as the world itself. George Lucas's view of history is not the same thing as history itself. This is where your error lies. You have it backwards. What is important is how that history is being used. In this case Lucas decided to depict a story where a liberal democracy dies, not from without, but from within. The supposed received "message the work itself is communicating" is always a reaction to the work and the limits are determined by the various strengths of those interpretations. Consider Marx's master, Hegel: his writings have been championed as being both far left and far right ideologically. KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Feb 11, 2019 |
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Feb 11, 2019 04:06
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Another key piece of evidence is that, when you break down the plot of the two ST films, Luke’s New Jedi Temple was located on Jakku. That’s what Max Von Sydow was investigating. Max Von Sydow's character found a map on Jakku from before Luke covered his tracks, presumably in the wreckage of contemporaneous ships. You don't need to stretch as far as you have to fanfic up an explanation of why he was on Jakku.
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Feb 11, 2019 05:05
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Cease to Hope posted:Max Von Sydow's character found a map on Jakku from before Luke covered his tracks, presumably in the wreckage of contemporaneous ships. That’s not what is shown in the movies, or even what is said in the movies. What we’re shown is that R2 hid a piece of his map in the ruins of the New Jedi Temple, where it was later found by Max Von Sydow.
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Feb 11, 2019 06:01
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:That’s not what is shown in the movies, or even what is said in the movies. tatooine and jakku, known for their grassy hills 
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Feb 11, 2019 06:12
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Cease to Hope posted:tatooine and jakku, known for their grassy hills this is a shot from TLJ, which retcons most of the story around luke's jedi temple from TFA including the location (and the implied circumstances of ren's turn to the dark side)
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Feb 11, 2019 06:25
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:this is a shot from TLJ, which retcons most of the story around luke's jedi temple from TFA including the location (and the implied circumstances of ren's turn to the dark side) sure looks a lot like this vision from TFA, where it's pouring down rain on a muddy, grassed field outside a building with the same silhouette.  what, exactly, in TFA is it that supposedly implies that the temple is on jakku? what about torrential rain makes you think, "hey, this must be both of the desert planets at the same time"?
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Feb 11, 2019 06:42
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We are never told the planet where Luke trains new jedi.
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Feb 11, 2019 07:50
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Bongo Bill posted:Speaking generally about structural similarities between The Force Awakens and its predecessors, it was observed that Jakku is basically Tatooine - in terms of their impact on the story and their aesthetic design, they're virtually identical. When it was pointed out that obviously they're not the same planet, we dug into it, and found that there's actually nothing in the movies separating them, nor indeed to the movies contain any evidence that they're different. It could go either way, really - clearly it means something different if they're the same planet than distinct but highly similar ones, but the sequels themselves don't seem to have much to say about that topic to which that meaning would pertain. A similar discussion about Coruscant and Hosnian Prime happened in parallel, though that one was more influenced by the tendency of the sequels not to elaborate on meaningful aspects of their settings. of course there's no jawas on "jaku". jaku is a reconstruction era tatooine. leia in her slave outfit rises up and kills her slaver causing the other slaves to do so as well ending slavery on tatooine but the republic doesn't give a poo poo allowing the rise of dudes like unkar platt who is basically running a sharecropping organization for farming war wrecks
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Feb 11, 2019 09:09
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Cease to Hope posted:on one hand, that's kind of a neat fanfic prompt That Kylo says that he wants this doesn't change the fact that he is a) the most and at this point last interesting character in the newer movies, b) related to literally all the main OT characters, and c) apparently going back to his Vader cosplay in the next movie. Even pointing out that Rey is related to no one special is a weak echo of Vader's attempt to turn Luke to the dark side. The twist is that it's not "I'm your father" because that would have been weird, it's "Nobody important is your father." And a slight correction to your earlier description of Jakku. The Jakkuffians aren't living in the shadows of the earlier generation, they are living in the wrecks of the Empire, specifically. It's kind of curious that there are no good guy ships there, just the shell of an former enemy that Rey squats in, dreaming of glorious battle. It's like the galaxy in general is wistfully thinking back to the time where they still had proper evil guys to fight, not these lanky losers with their tryhard Nazi parades.
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Feb 11, 2019 12:26
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Cease to Hope posted:luke lives in a space farmhouse and works in a space barn despite that film similarly being set in the aftermath of a devastating war. likewise, despite being surrounded by the legacy of the previous war, it is concealed from him, and takes the form of generally kindly but protective elders (which the new war cruelly rips from him). This is a difference in character, not setting. Luke has been placed under the protection of slaveowners because the Jedi think he's special and needs protecting until the day he can go kill Darth Vader for them. He is deliberately isolated from war until he comes of age. Rey was abandoned in the same world. She has greater power but inherits no defined purpose.
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Feb 11, 2019 13:49
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Cease to Hope posted:tatooine and jakku, known for their grassy hills Grass can be grown anywhere, provided you can import the soil and water. Grass in the desert is an ostentatious display of wealth, as shown in Canto Bight. Cease to Hope posted:sure looks a lot like this vision from TFA, where it's pouring down rain on a muddy, grassed field outside a building with the same silhouette. That’s a dream sequence. Ben and his pals only killed 6 Jedi, in self-defense, on a night where it wasn’t raining, while wearing different clothes.
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Feb 11, 2019 14:14
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Grass can be grown anywhere, provided you can import the soil and water. It's easier than that - Tattooine is Arrakis. Jakku is Tattooine/Rakis in the later novels, when it begins to be terraformed. Star Wars 12 or whatever will have it returned to a desert waste.
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Feb 11, 2019 15:32
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RBA Starblade posted:It's easier than that - Tattooine is Arrakis. Jakku is Tattooine/Rakis in the later novels, when it begins to be terraformed. Star Wars 12 or whatever will have it returned to a desert waste.  but you're forgetting that Tatooine is also Kamino.
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Feb 11, 2019 16:06
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Aight so a quick recap of the sides: Jakku is Tatooine; -Looks identical to Tatooine. -Same number of moons (2) confirmed. -Society and economy near-identical to Tatooine. -Architecture identical to Tatooine. -Home to not one but two distinct Skywalker cults. -Map to Skywalker was hidden there by R2 as a test of worthiness to followers of Skywalker. Jakku is not Tatooine; -The name is different. -There’s grass in one spot. -Rey had a dream that it rained there. -Only one sun visible so far.
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Feb 11, 2019 16:42
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porfiria posted:Is TFA just clearly better than TLJ? gently caress no.
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Feb 11, 2019 16:43
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still not seeing any evidence that luke's temple was on jakku other than SMG's fanfiction also tatooine is actual tunisian architecture, with an emphasis on geometric shapes and circular domes. the only permanent settlements we see on jakku are either organic and misshapen, with metal doors in what resembles termite nests, or makeshift shelters made from pieces of wrecked ships. Tatooine:   Jakku:  
Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Feb 11, 2019 |
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Feb 11, 2019 16:59
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Cease to Hope posted:still not seeing any evidence that luke's temple was on jakku other than SMG's fanfiction Well yeah there's no evidence in either direction because they haven't definitively said on screen, it's all just speculation. There's the evidence posted above but it sounds like you want something concrete and definitive, which won't happen until/if they make a reference to Luke's Jedi school in episode 9. Also the image you posted from TLJ shows 2 moons.
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Feb 11, 2019 17:13
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This thread is so beyond ready for the Episode IX trailer to finally drop so we can poo poo all over it.
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Feb 11, 2019 17:19
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Cease to Hope posted:still not seeing any evidence that luke's temple was on jakku other than SMG's fanfiction The map from TFA from was cut-and-pasted directly from R2’s memory. We know this because it’s the exact same shape as the hole in R2’s memory. When Luke ran away, he abandoned R2 at the site of the New Jedi Temple. When R2 was found, later, he was in a (self-imposed) ‘low power mode’ coma. R2 could only have hidden the map at some point between those two events, and had no opportunity to fly to other planets. The name of the planet where he hid the map is Jakku, as stated at the beginning of Episode 7.
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Feb 11, 2019 17:31
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It’s clear R2 hid the map on Jakku but how does he end up on Dquar? I guess it doesn’t matter.
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Feb 11, 2019 17:35
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euphronius posted:It’s clear R2 hid the map on Jakku but how does he end up on Dquar? I guess it doesn’t matter. Leia presumably went to investigate the burning temple and found the comatose R2 there. She keeps him around in case he wakes up. This is actually stated by C3PO in the movie: “R2-D2 has been in low power mode ever since Master Luke went away. Sadly, he may never be his old self again.” So why not just pull the plug and reboot him? “It is very doubtful that R2 would have the rest of the map in his backup data.” So the Resistance knows R2 has a copy of the map, but the only way to get it is to hope he wakes up.
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Feb 11, 2019 17:43
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:R2 could only have hidden the map at some point between those two events, and had no opportunity to fly to other planets. r2-d2 is on the resistance base's planet, which is not jakku. how did he get there? when did he go into a coma? max von sydow's character has the piece of the map referred to in the opening crawl. it isn't ever made clear where or how he got that piece of the map, and there's no particular reason to think he couldn't get around.
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Feb 11, 2019 17:51
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So new Jedi school burns down / massacre Luke takes off Leia comes to investigate and finds R2. Maybe Luke is still there and says goodbye/sorry She doesn’t know yet to look for the missing map piece because R2 is shut down. Years pass Old Jedi priest / researcher on Jakku is digging through the holy? Ruins and finds the USB with the map. Calls Leia to tell her and she sends Poe. This would mean also I guess that Luke knew where the first Temple was way back when Kyle Ren left.
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Feb 11, 2019 17:55
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^^^ Precisely, yes. The only thing unexplained in the films is where R2 first obtained an incredibly rare complete map of the galaxy. “r2-d2 is on the resistance base's planet, which is not jakku. how did he get there?” Leia presumably went to investigate the burning temple and found the comatose R2 there. She keeps him around in case he wakes up. This is actually stated by C3PO in the movie. Leia has spent a lot of time and resources searching for Luke (e.g. sending her best pilot to Jakku), so of course she would investigate the temple and gather evidence from it. “When did [R2] go into a coma?” When Luke went away. “R2-D2 has been in low power mode ever since Master Luke went away.” “it isn't ever made clear where or how [Von Sydow] got that piece of the map.” He discovered it on Jakku. “Jakku, where an old ally has discovered a clue to Luke’s whereabouts….” But anyways, this ‘just asking questions’ thing doesn’t work. You need a stronger interpretation based on the textual evidence, and ‘maybe R2D2 stole a ship when no-one was looking’ is not that. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Feb 11, 2019 |
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Feb 11, 2019 18:12
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Cease to Hope posted:still not seeing any evidence that luke's temple was on jakku other than SMG's fanfiction That last one is a perfect image for "Tatooine, but the economy has gone to poo poo and everyone's reliant on scrap recovered from a recent, gigantic low-orbit space battle"
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Feb 11, 2019 18:34
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