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Henrik Zetterberg posted:If I only gave WoT 10 mins, I’d be like 10% through the prologue and toss it in the garbage and swear off the whole series. Despite its glaring pacing issues for like 6 books, I’m glad I didn’t.
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Feb 9, 2019 05:41
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Henrik Zetterberg posted:If I only gave WoT 10 mins, I’d be like 10% through the prologue and toss it in the garbage and swear off the whole series. Despite its glaring pacing issues for like 6 books, I’m glad I didn’t. Think about the opportunity cost, though. This isn't just a case of whether you're enjoying WoT, but also whether you'd enjoy something else more. When Mel says he disliked the first part of book 1, he's not just making a statement about the quality of the series in an objective sense, but also judging that there's something else he can read that he'd like better. In the time it took you to read the first six books, which you acknowledge have serious pacing problems, you could have read something else that didn't have those issues. I'm not even going to be a snob here and insist that you read non-genre (god knows I have bad taste) but even if you just want to stick to fantasy there has to be something better written that you haven't read yet. Not that you have to always try to maximize your enjoyment, of course. I'm not going to judge you for just having fun, just trying to expand a bit on Mel et al's point.
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Feb 9, 2019 05:53
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RC Cola posted:Where are you now? CoT, chapter 10. Book started off great then went to Perrin. I’m on the Faille (audiobooks, I have no idea how to spell anything) chapters and they’re semi-interesting.
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Feb 9, 2019 05:55
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Karia posted:Think about the opportunity cost, though. This isn't just a case of whether you're enjoying WoT, but also whether you'd enjoy something else more. When Mel says he disliked the first part of book 1, he's not just making a statement about the quality of the series in an objective sense, but also judging that there's something else he can read that he'd like better. In the time it took you to read the first six books, which you acknowledge have serious pacing problems, you could have read something else that didn't have those issues. I'm not even going to be a snob here and insist that you read non-genre (god knows I have bad taste) but even if you just want to stick to fantasy there has to be something better written that you haven't read yet. Or instead of reading something better you could poo poo post about how something you didn't read sucks  I haven't read WoT so I have no horse in this race. I come to this thread to read/talk about Sanderson. The only thing worse than seeing fans of WoT talk about how it sucks is seeing people who haven't even read it talk about how it sucks. Nobody cares, go and take your faux cultured sensibilities somewhere else and let people enjoy something harmless and fun.
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Feb 9, 2019 07:29
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Henrik Zetterberg posted:CoT, chapter 10. Book started off great then went to Perrin. I’m on the Faille (audiobooks, I have no idea how to spell anything) chapters and they’re semi-interesting. Unfortunately you have some Elayne coming up too.
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Feb 9, 2019 07:55
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Sham bam bamina! posted:I didn't realize that changing the channel involved personally visiting everyone in the credits of the movie to spit in their faces, which is only as much of an exaggeration from your post as yours is from mine. You are not wrong, my first WoT book (the Path of Daggers) was purchased from the bargain bin and I had no idea what it was. I read the introduction and thoroughly disliked it and did not read the rest of the book. It was not until years later that someone gave me the series (what was available) that I started reading and found I liked it. I did not, however, declare the book to be horrible to my other book reading colleagues. You see I had not read enough of the book to make such an argument. Nor do I think Jordan's or Sanderson's works are above criticism. There are many issues with these authors works. I enjoy when Botl and others make in depth posts critiquing works. Conversely is the low effort smug posting negativity that some in here make just to troll. But here is the conceit: everyone has opinions and they will use it in a critique. However, there can be no honest critique of art when judged solely by opinions not backed by facts because only 1/10 of an art or body of work was reviewed. Otherwise, I could cherry pick something like The Sixth Sense or view just the upper 10% of The Scream. Forgetting that you can not view a portion of a work of art and then form a complete appraisal of said work.
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Feb 9, 2019 08:18
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I like that the goal has shifted from 'doing a real academic-style literary criticism' to 'giving my kneejerk opinion based on a small fraction of the overall text'. Given typical goon project trajectories I expect to see a double-digit bodycount by the end of the year.
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Feb 9, 2019 08:34
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All of that is specifically what I meant by "aren't set in stone".Tunicate posted:I like that the goal has shifted from 'doing a real academic-style literary criticism' to 'giving my kneejerk opinion based on a small fraction of the overall text'. I also don't think that the goal was ever to offer any kind of academic reading. Mel wasn't exactly subtle about his intent in posting here. Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 08:42 on Feb 9, 2019 |
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Feb 9, 2019 08:34
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It can be pretty frustrating when someone incorrectly criticizes a work of art you like after only seeing a part of it. But when their criticism is fundamentally correct, demanding that they read all of it before judging it is just a stalling tactic.
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Feb 9, 2019 08:43
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I read the whole Wheel of Time series start to finish and more or less enjoyed it when I was a teenager. I tried reading it last year and I couldn't stomach it. The writing is labored and tedious (e: and totally humorless, jesus christ) and there are 10 billion pages of it. You can slam Mel for only reading 100 pages but his limited criticism would be fairly applied to the rest of the series:quote:Jordan seems to fail to realize that if text is uniformly thorough and detailed, it ends up creating a rhythm for the reader that is very alienating. If he didn't like the excessive detail in the first 100 pages, he's going to hate it when things like character descriptions start to repeat practically verbatim later on. Eugene V. Dubstep fucked around with this message at 11:36 on Feb 9, 2019 |
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Feb 9, 2019 11:32
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Eugene V. Dubstep posted:e: and totally humorless, jesus christ Particularly egregious when one of the characters' entire gimmick is that he's "funny". Which means he constantly cracks "jokes" that only seem clever if you, like, come up with them in a dream or something (e: like those execrable twin brothers in Harry Potter) I don't know why everyone says they like Mat so much, literally all he ever does is swear and complain about having to do things Data Graham fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Feb 9, 2019 |
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Feb 9, 2019 16:11
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The Ninth Layer posted:I would argue that what you describe in the first paragraph is what the Wheel of Time does. The ruling class of wizards are all women and very early on they attempt to gain control of the make protagonist for reasons tied directly to the character's gender. Essentially they believe that the main character (or any man) will go mad if allowed to wield power, and there are women dedicated to put men down when they show signs of exercising this power. I mean I will admit that this genuinely sounds interesting, and is making me rethink some of my preconceptions. Of course, it is a bit disappointing that, as I understand it, eventually these norms return to a more narrative status quo. I wouldn't worry too much about whether Jordan is high literature because, big secret, that distinction doesn't actually exist. Text carries themes, the themes bring value to the text. Concerns of "literary" or not don't really matter. Which I think brings me back to my original point. I think we need to make a distinction between themes and tropes. This is one of those things that I personally want to murder every TVtropes user about. A trope is a narrative pattern that is familiar to the reader. A trope is, for example, the Hero's Journey, or Saving the Cat. It is not the message that matters in defining a trope, it is the pattern by which the message is conveyed. From what I read, and understand, the text doesn't actually subvert these tropes. Instead, the text uses these tropes to explore ideas that are not normally explored in fantasy i.e. gender roles and the nature of power and social control. These are the themes. That was why I wanted more information about how WoT "subverted" tropes. Ultimately, I still feel that the text doesn't subvert them. Instead, it uses a familiar toolbelt of rhetorical and narrative moves to explore non-traditional ideas. This is still an important or interesting thing, arguably moreso than just the standard "subversion" of a pattern. Its ironic you mentioned Piers Anthony giving the first book a glowing review. I recall, in my earlier and far dumber teenage years, being a big Piers Anthony fan. I recall once of his books had a premise very similar to the one this book is presenting. He had a world in which every ten generations the magical power of the world would switch genders. Each gender, once empowered, would enslave and oppress the other, and endeavor to prevent the inevitable switch of power later on. Of course, these ideas didn't end up being very interesting because Piers Anthony is a creepy misogynist and pervert, but I do wonder if he got the idea from WoT. It was called Fractal Mode I think? Sham bam bamina! posted:I also don't think that the goal was ever to offer any kind of academic reading. Mel wasn't exactly subtle about his intent in posting here. so did you just miss the whole part where Ninth and I have actually had a decent conversation because he didn't get super defensive about criticism and actually responded to what I said Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Feb 9, 2019 |
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Feb 9, 2019 17:30
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I would also point out the only reason I started posting in this thread is because quotes from this thread were being copied into the Bonfire thread to make fun of and I found it lovely and dishonest to not give the person a chance to respond and explain their ideas
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Feb 9, 2019 17:40
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Data Graham posted:I don't know why everyone says they like Mat so much, literally all he ever does is swear and complain about having to do things I'm still trying to figure it out myself. Everyone in this thread loves him but I've yet to hear why anyone likes him so much, and I'd actually like to know what it is. So far his chapters can be summed as: * Try to avoid having to do anything * Wish you were dancing with girls * Complain about how confusing girls are * Kill someone through a stroke of luck Probably doesn't help that I don't like the Seanchan as a whole, nor Tuon herself Sab669 fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Feb 9, 2019 |
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Feb 9, 2019 18:50
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I remember finding him the best character as well, though looking back I think it was because he was such a breath of fresh air after Rand's moping, and Perrin's alternate moping. The tone really changed whenever the spotlight shifted to him, at least once things got going.
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Feb 9, 2019 19:29
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I mean I guess he’s better than the 90s-as-gently caress thousand page dreamtime wolf battle that Perrin’s story turns into But so is actual cancer
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Feb 9, 2019 20:26
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Mat’s role in the war against the Shaido outside Carhein was due to him trying to avoid doing anything and ended up being one of the better battle sequences. It was confusing and presented as ancillary to the main combat but we find out only later it was a major factor in victory. It stands in pretty stark contrast to the very explicit way Sanderson writes combat, like he’s describing an RTS game.
Zoracle Zed fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Feb 9, 2019 |
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Feb 9, 2019 20:32
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I think we need to make a distinction between themes and tropes. This is one of those things that I personally want to murder every TVtropes user about. A trope is a narrative pattern that is familiar to the reader. A trope is, for example, the Hero's Journey, or Saving the Cat. It is not the message that matters in defining a trope, it is the pattern by which the message is conveyed. From what I read, and understand, the text doesn't actually subvert these tropes. Instead, the text uses these tropes to explore ideas that are not normally explored in fantasy i.e. gender roles and the nature of power and social control. These are the themes. Yeah like I said originally I don't really buy into the idea that WoT "subverted tropes" because for the most part it is a fairly generic fantasy story that was clearly heavily influenced by Lord of the Rings, and to the degree that it is notable it is in how the series was from the beginning conceived as a multiple books long epic story in which a whole world would be visited and explored. I don't have a critical background in literature or anything beyond just being someone who enjoys reading, so I appreciate getting this distinction between tropes and themes from you. As a final note on women in Wheel of Time, others in this thread have highlighted how it's laughable that a fantasy story having women characters in it was a big achievement, but just take a look at how many women there are in the books. Someone earlier brought up The Worm Ouroboros as an early fantasy book with women in it, but of the twelve characters that were listed on wikipedia only two are women. Jordan beats that ratio just within the five teenaged protagonists introduced at the start of the first book. WoT easily passes the Bedchel test and there are plenty of scenes and chapters with no men at all. That doesn't excuse Jordan's many faults in how men and women are portrayed; just google "wheel of time gender politics" and you will find plenty of articles pointing out various sexist elements of the books. But it does set Jordan above most of his contemporaries in terms of gender representation and the series undoubtedly brought a lot of new readers into the genre because of it. Also it wasn't me who mentioned the Piers Anthony review, I'm just gonna distance myself from that one haha.
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Feb 10, 2019 03:22
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The Ninth Layer posted:Yeah like I said originally I don't really buy into the idea that WoT "subverted tropes" because for the most part it is a fairly generic fantasy story that was clearly heavily influenced by Lord of the Rings, and to the degree that it is notable it is in how the series was from the beginning conceived as a multiple books long epic story in which a whole world would be visited and explored.
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Feb 10, 2019 04:00
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Sure, there were other epic fantasy stories out there. I remember reading somewhere that Jordan originally planned on having his series extend to ten books but I can't find a source on google so maybe I'm wrong about that.
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Feb 10, 2019 04:09
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Wikipedia says six. Final count: 14. 
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Feb 10, 2019 04:15
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The Ninth Layer posted:Sure, there were other epic fantasy stories out there. I remember reading somewhere that Jordan originally planned on having his series extend to ten books but I can't find a source on google so maybe I'm wrong about that. It was supposed to be a trilogy to start with iirc.
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Feb 10, 2019 04:44
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We need a WoT thread again. Mostly because only 3/14ths of the series has any applicability to this thread, and I'm tired of actual Sanderson stuff being drowned out by Jordan stuff.
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Feb 10, 2019 07:18
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hell yeah if there's one thing TBB needs it's another 900 page thread about a fantasy series (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 10, 2019 17:02
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chernobyl kinsman posted:hell yeah if there's one thing TBB needs it's another 900 page thread about a fantasy series it'd be rough if you had to click on a totally different thread to post such content as chernobyl kinsman posted:your friend is dumb OP chernobyl kinsman posted:you sit down to the entree. the first ten bites taste like dogshit. there are 14 more courses coming. chernobyl kinsman posted:"critical discussion" as long as no one says anything critical
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Feb 10, 2019 17:13
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chernobyl kinsman posted:hell yeah if there's one thing TBB needs it's another 900 page thread about a fantasy series Why are you so invested in what some book nerds talk about on an obscure subforum of a dying comedy forum, just how empty is your life?
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Feb 10, 2019 17:16
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Has anyone listened to the audio books of any Sanderson novels? How are the people who read them?
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Feb 10, 2019 18:05
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A friend of mine gave me the GraphicAudio performance of Warbreaker, it was really good (as I remember from five years ago, so grain of salt.) Not a "traditional" audio book, it has different actors for all the main characters and some sound effects and stuff. It's a pretty different experience, though, so I can definitely see an argument that it's not the right way to experience the book.
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Feb 10, 2019 18:34
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RC Cola posted:Has anyone listened to the audio books of any Sanderson novels? How are the people who read them? I've only listened to the Stormlight audio books. They're read by the same couple who read the Wheel of Time books, if you've listened to those. Michael Kramer and Kate Reading, I think their names are.
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Feb 10, 2019 20:27
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RC Cola posted:Has anyone listened to the audio books of any Sanderson novels? How are the people who read them? Extremely good. That's how I've read all of Sanderson's books. Almost all of them are read by Michael Kramer, who is a wonderful narrator. He gives each character fantastic unique voices, even going so far as to create accents for regions of each world. For all the non-dialog reading he adds appropriate but subdued emphasis and emotion, enough to pull you into the text but not so much that it becomes distracting or overshadowing. I'm listening to another audio book atm where the narrator goes way overboard and overacts everything to the point that it makes it difficult to listen to. Some of Sanderson's books, notably Stormlight, have the female POV sections read by Kate Reading. This gives a neat narrative separation between character viewpoints, but unfortunately I don't think she's as good. She really overacts dialog, particularly any young woman, which contributed to me disliking certain characters for a really long time - notably Shallon. She's supposed to be a fairly immature character early on but the narration makes her sound unbelievably petulant and sulky. The same definitely applies to Lift too. But it's not all bad, there are certain characters I think she did an incredible job on (Pattern), and her non-dialog reading is generally quite good. I couldn't recommend it enough. I think the narration adds wonderful weight to the story (like whenever the Stormfather speaks), and the voices will make each character stand out in a great way. The voices for Rock, Lopin, Teft, Dalinar and so many more are unforgettable.
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Feb 10, 2019 20:35
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RC Cola posted:Has anyone listened to the audio books of any Sanderson novels? How are the people who read them? I listened to the graphic audio of Way of Kings during a road trip last summer, and it was good enough to get me into reading him, but Sanderson really suffers when you can't just skim past the repetitive bits.
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Feb 10, 2019 20:40
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chernobyl kinsman posted:hell yeah if there's one thing TBB needs it's another 900 page thread about a fantasy series Why do you care?
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Feb 11, 2019 00:30
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chernobyl kinsman posted:hell yeah if there's one thing TBB needs it's another 900 page thread about a fantasy series Is it terribly difficult for you? Sharing a forum with the rest of us, suffering our average wits and simple thoughts?
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Feb 11, 2019 01:19
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The Gardenator posted:Is it terribly difficult for you? Sharing a forum with the rest of us, suffering our average wits and simple thoughts? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ATJhCIeaqo
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Feb 11, 2019 01:25
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I read three books of the Wheel of Time, and in that span it didn't get better or subvert any tropes. Even the powers of the genders aren't really flipped around in WoT – I dunno why everyone says that. Women have a niche in magic, but women have always had power in niches, and the dynamic is the same. Men control the armies and all the means of production. Women think men are arrogant shitheads, and are resentful of them, not contemptuous of them in the way a higher class is of a lower class. But that's perfectly in line with stereotypes in the western world in the late 80's + 90's. So when Egwene sits on Rand and calls him names (is this sexy?), it's still read as a woman, in a position of lower power, 'punching up' at a man, who could be done with her if he wanted, and Rand puts up with it by condescending to her, even if he's emotionally in some sense not mature enough to deal with her responsibly. And the audience is supposed to read it with the infantilizing attitude of, wooo you go gurl, so feisty! It doesn't read as 'oh wow, this person in a position of higher power is berating her subordinate, how awful / how weird that the roles are reversed.' The Ninth Layer posted:
The Worm's women are way, way better than WoT's, though. And Eddison's later stuff had all-women portions of the cast that interacted with each other without men, including politically ambitious teenaged girls.
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Feb 11, 2019 02:51
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Taffer posted:Extremely good. That's how I've read all of Sanderson's books. Almost all of them are read by Michael Kramer, who is a wonderful narrator. He gives each character fantastic unique voices, even going so far as to create accents for regions of each world. For all the non-dialog reading he adds appropriate but subdued emphasis and emotion, enough to pull you into the text but not so much that it becomes distracting or overshadowing. I'm listening to another audio book atm where the narrator goes way overboard and overacts everything to the point that it makes it difficult to listen to. I’ve been listening to WoT on audiobook since book 3 and I agree with your assessment of the narrators. Kramer is fantastic, especially his Ogier voices. Reading is super bland and doesn’t really vary her voices much, which is half the reason I can’t stand the Aes Sedai chapters.
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Feb 11, 2019 05:08
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I've tried to had my Kindle read to me but that sound/voice is just not good, wonder if it could actually play proper audio books, that would make for nice package deals in the Kindle store.
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Feb 12, 2019 10:07
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Henrik Zetterberg posted:I’ve been listening to WoT on audiobook since book 3 and I agree with your assessment of the narrators. Kramer is fantastic, especially his Ogier voices. Reading is super bland and doesn’t really vary her voices much, which is half the reason I can’t stand the Aes Sedai chapters. What annoys me is they pronounce some words differently even with the same character. They are married and record in their house they could coordinate that. Otherwise though they are pretty good I found the versions with music and sound effects distracting.
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Feb 12, 2019 16:44
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Tahirovic posted:I've tried to had my Kindle read to me but that sound/voice is just not good, wonder if it could actually play proper audio books, that would make for nice package deals in the Kindle store. It depends on the Kindle, but in general, yes, they can play Audible audiobooks and Amazon offers deals to add Audible audio to a Kindle book, not that it's all that great a deal (although I think this price was for the entire Wheel of Time). quote:Whispersync for Voice https://www.audible.com/ep/wfs
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Feb 12, 2019 16:45
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socialsecurity posted:What annoys me is they pronounce some words differently even with the same character. They are married and record in their house they could coordinate that. Otherwise though they are pretty good I found the versions with music and sound effects distracting. I know they've changed some pronunciations from book to book, but I can't think of any instances within the same book where they pronounce things differently. Maybe they do and I'm just not listening that closely, though.
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Feb 12, 2019 16:52
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