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cmdrk posted:yet everyone uses the original EQ Atlas maps made by ONE SPOONY BARD. whats the difference Someone had to make those, we didn't have poo poo in 1999. IMO make poo poo as hard as possible.
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Feb 12, 2019 17:46
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The EQ zones weren't that hard to memorize anyway. The hardest was probably guk live side. Even the cazic maze was easy enough. That being said, nothing at all wrong with in game maps and if you think there is you're just a grumpy grognard who wants poo poo tedious for the sake of being so. Givin fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Feb 12, 2019 |
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Feb 12, 2019 19:03
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Man someone really crawled up your rear end and destroyed your sense of wonder. It's a video game, some people have fun exploring and not knowing what there is. Just let them enjoy it.
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Feb 12, 2019 19:16
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A map won't take away any of that, sorry.
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Feb 12, 2019 19:19
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But how does having an in game map that can be easily ignored prevent people from exploring?
DapperDraculaDeer fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Feb 12, 2019 |
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Feb 12, 2019 19:19
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soy posted:Someone had to make those, we didn't have poo poo in 1999. When I was in high school my best friend printed out every single map from EQ Maps from original through Velious and had them organized and notated in a large 3-ring binder.
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Feb 12, 2019 19:49
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Honestly if yall want a hard mmo experience, try SWTOR. It doesn't get more hardcore than that.
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Feb 12, 2019 19:51
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Citcon posted:Honestly if yall want a hard mmo experience, try SWTOR. It doesn't get more hardcore than that. did they make it harder? I played through the empire campaign at launch but it was just wow in space with more voice acting and jankier combat
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Feb 12, 2019 19:58
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CoffeeBooze posted:But how does having an in game map that can be easily ignored prevent people from exploring? "It's not enough to succeed, others must fail" except in a video game.
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Feb 13, 2019 01:04
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Freakazoid_ posted:"It's not enough to succeed, others must fail" except in a video game. exactly this everquest was great because it was a solid fun game, and a good percentage of people who played never got to see a good chunk of the content despite wanting to because they couldn't get organized to do it... so if you did it actually felt pretty rewarding. Not just endgame content either, like tons of people never even made it halfway to 60. equality of outcome is not a good thing
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Feb 13, 2019 02:07
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soy posted:exactly this Let me explain why 90% of the player base paying so 10% can have nice things is good
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Feb 13, 2019 02:46
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You might as well put maps in the game because they will be on the internet anyway.
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Feb 13, 2019 03:06
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Byolante posted:Let me explain why 90% of the player base paying so 10% can have nice things is good This is not what that post says.
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Feb 13, 2019 03:07
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onesixtwo posted:This is not what that post says. Its glorifying designing content in such a way that most of the people playing it will never get to see it.
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Feb 13, 2019 04:28
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Byolante posted:Its glorifying designing content in such a way that most of the people playing it will never get to see it. Naw it’s saying that being one of the turbo nerds able to hit max endgame content, and getting cool looking gear from extremely exclusive content to show off because ‘hey i did this thing’ is a cool bonus to having the time to throw away into an otherwise pointless pixel grind. MMOs are literally Barbie dress up timesinks, glorified or not there is exclusive grind wall locked content in every single MMO as the actual game design philosophy. Saying 90% of the players pay for 10% to do content is misleading, since everyone pays the same outside of time they invest into the bullshit. E: also if this is a casual vs hardcore argument, I’ll remind you this is the Pantheon thread, of all places. This IS a vaporware designed for the hardcore audience, by design. soy posted:exactly this Yeah, see I agree with this. I remember playing vanilla EQ or WoW and seeing someone run by with some awesome gear, and wondering where it came from. It gave goals to hit, and it felt really loving good to eventually idle in Ironforge wearing that elusive gear set you saw someone run by wearing some six months back while leveling. onesixtwo fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Feb 13, 2019 |
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Feb 13, 2019 04:36
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soy posted:Someone had to make those, we didn't have poo poo in 1999. point is that it was basically just one guy (MUSE hallowed be thy name) that did all of them. and that was really cool and he was truly the spooniest of bards. but the rest of us just downloaded all of his maps, wasn't any different than having an in-game map without location tracking for 99.99% percent us.
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Feb 13, 2019 05:27
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onesixtwo posted:Naw it’s saying that being one of the turbo nerds able to hit max endgame content, and getting cool looking gear from extremely exclusive content to show off because ‘hey i did this thing’ is a cool bonus to having the time to throw away into an otherwise pointless pixel grind. MMOs are literally Barbie dress up timesinks, glorified or not there is exclusive grind wall locked content in every single MMO as the actual game design philosophy. Saying 90% of the players pay for 10% to do content is misleading, since everyone pays the same outside of time they invest into the bullshit. Its the reason why hardcore mmos fail horribly. Once other games came along and showed the scrubs that they could have fun too and didn't need to just bask in the glory of their superiors they left games that didn't cater to them. The rise of mobas and now BRs specifically speaks to how to properly develop a hardcore title. Create something where all the content is there and accessible be you a negative mmr shitter or a world elite nolifer then have the way you play be the expression of your mastery. 40 man raids or world spawn raid bosses are relics of the precursors to mmos and the only reason they were tolerated at the time is there was nothing better.
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Feb 13, 2019 05:37
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There's a difference between having the map be available in game, and having to go to a website to try to figure out some weirdo's hand-drawn estimate. I played a bunch of P99 over the last 6 months, and I got lost in zones countless times. If the map were readily available by pressing M or whatever, that wouldn't have happened. I'd have just popped it open like every other game with a map, and stared at my icon as I moved towards my goal on this 2D image, ignoring the world I was traveling through. Even when I'd use the map in a browser alt tabbed, I'd have to look around the world IG to find landmarks and hope I was getting to the right place, and even then I'd miss landmarks a bunch of times and end up running around seeing parts of the zone I wouldn't have otherwise. The idea of "just don't use it if you want it to be harder" doesn't work. If it's readily available, most people will give in and use it, and you lose that sense of immersion and being lost in a world that you'd get otherwise. The whole point of Pantheon is to ignore a bunch of the conventions in MMO's that have become the standard, like in game maps, in favor of getting back to a more immersive, mysterious, dangerous experience. Maybe (probably) it will be a colossal failure, but this kind of a decision is consistent with what they're trying to do here.
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Feb 14, 2019 07:14
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You can easily have in game maps that don’t track your location
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Feb 14, 2019 08:05
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clone on the phone posted:You can easily have in game maps that don’t track your location If they do end up including maps, I think removing the tracking would go a long way towards easing the concerns of the anti-map crowd, as long as the entire contents of the area weren't already laid out on the map as well and had to be discovered first. What could also be cool is if, as an alternative, they allowed players to somehow draw and sell their own in game maps.
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Feb 14, 2019 08:29
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I mean, look, I play P99 and I think mapless EQ does bring you something special in terms of how you interact with the game. That being said I also know you couldn’t realistically release a game without a map, now (though maybe Brad will try), and even if there wasn’t one someone would make them and put them online in a minute. But what if there were maps but you had to sit down in-game to read them? Or they didn’t track your position at all? Or some other limiting factor? I think could bridge the gap in a way that’s more realistic than “NO MAPS GROGNARDS FORVER” and the “map perpetually open right click to win” type.
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Feb 14, 2019 13:23
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I think its possible to avoid the WOW style map that supplants visual navigation while still giving you the tools to get around. Like in FFXI, the map was a full-screen thing with nested tabs that required clicking through and could tell you where whatever you needed was (you, your party, tracked mobs, other stuff I'm forgetting) but couldn't just run via the map because it prevented you from moving outside of autorun which would get you fuckin killed. On top of that, you had to buy the maps from a vendor in a mid game zone for a pretty substantial amount of gil if you were low level, so people would often do without as long as someone in their group had it. I'd be okay with something that approximated those effects but they've been pretty consistent in their "there won't be a map" position for ages which is just stupid. The only way it won't be dumb is if they really pull some spectacular game design out of their asses and make zones that are truly unforgettable and distinct enough to be navigable easily, which, from all the gameplay and screenshots I've seen, they just aren't doing.
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Feb 14, 2019 15:02
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hello this is your quarterly reminder not to give brad mcquaid or anyone associated with him any money thanks for your time
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Feb 14, 2019 23:22
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Byolante posted:Its the reason why hardcore mmos fail horribly. Once other games came along and showed the scrubs that they could have fun too and didn't need to just bask in the glory of their superiors they left games that didn't cater to them. The rise of mobas and now BRs specifically speaks to how to properly develop a hardcore title. Create something where all the content is there and accessible be you a negative mmr shitter or a world elite nolifer then have the way you play be the expression of your mastery. 40 man raids or world spawn raid bosses are relics of the precursors to mmos and the only reason they were tolerated at the time is there was nothing better. This post is just confusing. I'm saying gear earned after doing difficult content is a Good Thing, because it often comes with a unique cosmetic look, and shows the accomplishment off. I don't know what the heck you're trying to say by bringing up other genres that don't at all translate to MMO game design philosophy to justify your point of 'hard optional content providing unique rewards is unfair to the masses,' but i'm not interested in continuing with it. I'll go ahead and have the way I play be the expression of my mastery.
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Feb 15, 2019 01:55
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yeah, being able to make maps in game, or have vendors sell maps would be really handy. and having a map doesn't necessarily mean it has to be accurate- I could see having a map that gives you the general lay of the land and major landmarks, but doesn't show your location or tell you where all of the phat lewt will spawn. themepark MMOs that shuttle you from quest to quest, area to area maybe need the tracking and stuff because they're made up of largely forgettable "bring back 23 wolf feet" quests. the purpose there is to facilitate mindless skinner box quests so you can max out and get to The Real Game (tm) of whatever endgame content they've put together.
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Feb 15, 2019 07:44
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I like map systems where you start with a 'blank' or shadowed map and as you run around/explore it fills in based on where you've been.
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Feb 16, 2019 01:20
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I'm curious how many "eq was way more hardcore then how mmos are now" players have completed mythic wow or savage ffxiv raiding. I'm willing to bet very few because they think difficulty is losing all your levels or taking forever to hit level cap. You probably also think Greg tech makes modded minecraft harder. That eq boss where the warrior tank spammed one ability till he died and the next war took over sure was hard. If this game actually came out and world first raiders(people who play wow 80 hours a week when a raid is released and stream it, actual hardcore players) played the game and could get past the tedium. They would poo poo all over it. And as for the guy wanting to stand in iron forge with t2 to lord over people. That has been replaced by clearing mythic raids quickly and parsing orange parses. Where you actually have to be good at the game to accomplish that. Not get carried and be given some t2 loot that was gonna be disenchanted off the 1 mechanic boss. Theme park mmos did it right with difficulty. They made the game accessible to everyone and also have super hard poo poo if you want to do it. The bitter eq vets don't like It because it requires actual skill to do the super hard stuff and not slamming your head into a table until it breaks.
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Feb 16, 2019 07:23
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Personally i just liked ffxi (and eq1 which ive only played as project 1999) because they felt like worlds with games built around them rather than the other way around. Which i fully admit isn't what everyone's after with a game.
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Feb 16, 2019 09:19
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Holyshoot posted:I'm curious how many "eq was way more hardcore then how mmos are now" players have completed mythic wow or savage ffxiv raiding. I'm willing to bet very few because they think difficulty is losing all your levels or taking forever to hit level cap. You probably also think Greg tech makes modded minecraft harder. Well to start, no one is claiming that there's no skill or practice required for modern MMO top tier raiding. Obviously those guys put in a lot of time to beat really well tuned bosses, and it is a sort of thing that appeals to lots of the same race for world first guys and gals that played EQ back in the day. And yeah, it's obviously a model that worked out well for WoW financially, and for the players who might not have enjoyed EQ. It's the joke where "If Bill Gates woke up tomorrow with Oprah's money he'd jump out a window." If WoW woke up tomorrow with EQ's highest ever player count then Blizzard's entire C-suite would be fired. So of course WoW/FF14 appeal to a broader audience. What I think you might be missing is that the game for many of the people that played wasn't about the difficulty at the end. Hell, I barely remember the time spent farming dragons and giants in Velious. (Just like most Mythic raiders don't remember the time they spent face-rolling Mythic 5 mans after a release had been out for a couple of months) What I remember most fondly are the leveling experiences, because they weren't trivial in most cases, and because the classes weren't cookie cutter copies of one another. Having a party of Druids and Necros fear kiting crocs in oasis with no tank, or duoing in LGuk with an Enchanter/Cleric because there aren't any open group spots, or taking a group to the Mines of Nurga because it was remote and you'd have the place to yourselves. And then at Max level, nothing worthwhile from the latest expansion was ever risk-free outside of raids, and raids only that way because the guild had made preparations and would be able to quickly get everyone ressed. So when I personally talk about enjoying the difficulty of EQ and some other older MMOs, I'm not talking about the comparison between raiding North Temple of Veeshan and Molten Core. In fact, those two are pretty equivalent in my mind, except Molten Core didn't drag on for nearly as long as ToV. What I'm talking about is the general leveling experience, and every single group being at least partially an exercise in figuring out how much stuff you could handle given the composition of the team. What the theme park MMOs has done that turns me off is make the leveling process feel like a giant solo time-sink, where grouping is going to slow me down more than help me out. It's probably indicative of a deep-rooted psychological problem, but while I'm fine slaughtering orcs for hours on end, as soon as I get my third "Deliver 10 bear-asses" quest my eyes glaze over and I want to be doing anything in the world except delivering those bear-asses. On the map issue from above, I'm in agreement with map of each region that doesn't show your location. Maybe with the ability to put a pin in your current location if you use a skill that takes a second to figure it out. The end goal being to make it so that people learn the geography of the zones and don't just run around with their maps up.
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Feb 16, 2019 12:19
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War Eagle posted:It's probably indicative of a deep-rooted psychological problem, but while I'm fine slaughtering orcs for hours on end, as soon as I get my third "Deliver 10 bear-asses" quest my eyes glaze over and I want to be doing anything in the world except delivering those bear-asses. lol Somehow this sums up everything perfectly. It’s too bad it’s too long for a thread title.
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Feb 16, 2019 13:29
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Ehud posted:lol completely agree on both the bear asses and the title.
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Feb 16, 2019 13:36
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Yeah, the boss and raid mechanics in WoW were definitely light years ahead of anything in EQ. To echo what the other two posters above said though, is that the world of classic EQ, and the grouping experience, felt much more immersive due to the danger and the mystery that resulted from that lack of information. It wasn't about the technical difficulty of the combat, but about the real sense of fear and wonder as you're going through a new zone, or a zone at night, or are deep in a dungeon miles from your bind point. You and 5 other dudes are deep in some poo poo that could wipe you guys all out at any moment if someone was not on top of their role as CC, healer, tank, or puller, or if you just took a wrong turn. The idea that you could suddenly lose the last few hours of progress, and your corpse, and you'd then have to figure out some way to get all the way back to it from across the continent while naked and not die again in the process. That made you sit on the edge of your seat and made the encounters and exploration meaningful. Your first time, hell even your 50th time in a zone, you had no idea what was in the majority of it, and that lack of knowing made it feel like there was always something out there to explore. I think that's some of what a lot of people miss. I have been thinking about those boss and raid mechanics, and wondering how that could be translated over to a game with harsh death penalties. Maybe they could come up with some kind of system that allows people to dull some of the death penalties that occur to them while in the radius of raid mobs? Otherwise I'm not really sure how you could set up encounters that are so technically challenging that groups/raids are expected to wipe dozens of times while learning them (and this is without all their abilities and phases being understood ahead of time).
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Feb 16, 2019 17:14
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I think what everyone is getting at is that themepark MMOs are completely off on their risk/reward ratio, not that top tier raids are not difficult. The only risk in MMOs now is wasting time. Look at the Souls games. People want to be punished for failure because it makes success feel more rewarding. The punishment is never so severe to make you quit, but it does sting if you lose a lot of souls and you even get one chance to get what you lost back. So to answer how to make raids difficult with real death penalties is to give the raid X times to succeed before you start to get seriously punished for failure. I don't want to ever go back to losing your corpse because that is too far on the risk side of the risk/reward ratio IMO. I do think there should be both experience and monetary penalties though with mechanics like the Souls games where you can recover some of what you lost.
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Feb 17, 2019 00:11
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I don't think harsh death penalties can work just because it's way too easy for me to ragequit games now. Like I've had poo poo that happened to me recently in a game where, if it had happened in 2003 where my only other option is go watch sunday afternoon network television, I would have desperately engaged all the people I could, tried some harebrained scheme, and at least got a good story out of it. Instead, I loving alt+f4'd and played dead by daylight. It's whatever, times are just different. The thing that interests me about old games is that they're considerably less atomized, you're expected to talk with and joke around with other people. However, most people are loving dickholes these days, or nazis or whatever. So in practice I end up hating everyone and doing something else I can solo. I don't know what the answer is, I desperately do want a game where I'm engaged with the community, but games like that tend to attract weird grognards who I don't actually want to talk to. People say "what you're really nostalgic for was being 14 and having a lot of spare time" but I think what I'm REALLY really nostalgic for is being 14 and people being generally nice to each other on the internet outside of a couple rat warrens.
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Feb 17, 2019 00:13
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Is there a confirmed death penalty for Pantheon?
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Feb 17, 2019 00:40
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I said come in! posted:Is there a confirmed death penalty for Pantheon? Yes but they haven't said what it is yet.
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Feb 17, 2019 00:53
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30.5 Days posted:I don't think harsh death penalties can work just because it's way too easy for me to ragequit games now. Like I've had poo poo that happened to me recently in a game where, if it had happened in 2003 where my only other option is go watch sunday afternoon network television, I would have desperately engaged all the people I could, tried some harebrained scheme, and at least got a good story out of it. Instead, I loving alt+f4'd and played dead by daylight. It's whatever, times are just different. The thing that interests me about old games is that they're considerably less atomized, you're expected to talk with and joke around with other people. However, most people are loving dickholes these days, or nazis or whatever. So in practice I end up hating everyone and doing something else I can solo. I don't know what the answer is, I desperately do want a game where I'm engaged with the community, but games like that tend to attract weird grognards who I don't actually want to talk to. People say "what you're really nostalgic for was being 14 and having a lot of spare time" but I think what I'm REALLY really nostalgic for is being 14 and people being generally nice to each other on the internet outside of a couple rat warrens. This is why we will see this type of internet community resurge in 20-30 years when we all start to retire.
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Feb 17, 2019 04:01
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On second thought, I don't want to completely dismiss EQ's combat as being less challenging than WoW's all around. Given that the dungeon/raid boss encounters were much more challenging, engaging, and elaborate in WoW, I do think the day to day combat in EQ was oftentimes more challenging and strategic. Charm soloing as a necro or enchanter in Howling Stones, for example, is far more challenging an experience than any soloing I've done in another MMO. Like, if you're trying to break into a room with 6 mobs that can each individually kill you in 5 seconds flat, you have to do some creative poo poo and know what you're doing, but you can pull it off with the the right approach. Even with that right approach, poo poo can go wrong, and your ability to adapt and respond quickly to that means the difference between life and death. When trying to break up a spawn, or fear kite, or set up a camp, you have to be very careful about when you pull what, where you're pulling it to, what abilities you're using to pull it, what mobs are pathing around, the timing of your pulls and kills, etc. You also had so many different approaches you could take: face tank a mob, root rot, AoE kite, fear kite, charm solo, reverse charm, swarm kite, FD pulling, etc. That kind of complexity simply doesn't exist in games like WoW. It might be more accurate to say that the combat in EQ had more of a strategic challenge to it? Either way it definitely feels more meaningful, strategic, and rewarding than the AoE button mashing that WoW seemed to have turned into from the base leveling experience up to Mythic dungeons in Legion. retpocileh fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Feb 17, 2019 |
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Feb 17, 2019 22:45
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The most challenging thing I remember from 7 years of WoW combat was getting into an instance with a paladin tank who was in full on speedrun mode who beelined for bosses doing nothing but pinballing his Captain America shield around and expecting everyone to keep up. Meanwhile everyone else is just trying not to die because the DPS didn't want to sit in queue for another 20 minutes to get in a new run. That said I'm keeping an eye on this game but I really, really don't want to give McQuaid any money.
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Feb 18, 2019 01:09
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I never played EQ but I played FFXI. My favorite aspect of the game other than the community was exploring. I know it wasn't as hard as in EQ, but the map was pretty basic. You could find a lot of shortcuts and such that you had to actually learn instead of seeing them on the map. Once you knew a zone it'd really speed up getting around which actually mattered. On top of that a lot of the zones were insanely dangerous. Quite a few missions would take you into extremely dangerous zones where a single mistake could take out your whole group. This dangerous aspect of traveling was an essential part of the experience of doing these missions and gave you the chance at heroics. Like trying to resurrect someone and keep them alive when you are surrounded by sight, sound, magic and low HP agro. Nothing like this exists anymore in modern mmos. It's all some sort of fast travel or instant teleports. It's completely boring and turns the game setting from a world, to just a series of events you go to through teleports or group finders. And the kid's these days just don't respect a day of climbing uphill both days, losing xp in the snow.
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Feb 18, 2019 04:35
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