Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

zapplez posted:

The Gray Zone is Max Blumenthal's media organization. Not exactly an unbiased source. His is currently in-country in Venezuela, appears to be part of a large government effort to invite small time media and influencers to start a propaganda campaign.

https://elcooperante.com/la-turista-espanola-vino-invitada-por-cancilleria-y-se-comio-mas-de-26-millones-de-bolivares/

Hahaha, that explains a shitton about the weird low-scale "independent" journalist coverage I'd been seeing echoing the Maduro line.

# ? Feb 12, 2019 20:11

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# ? May 21, 2024 19:37

Mean Baby: May 28, 2005

We've been through this dog and pony show but can anyone name a source that doesn't have bias? It's a tautology to say "welp this source is biased" without going into details about how that individual piece distorts the truth.

Every time any information which contradicts the narrative that Maduro is responsible for every single problem in Venezuela and that a majority of Venezuelans support the opposition the knee-jerk reaction is "that's biased" without a sliver of critique of the actual evidence.

# ? Feb 12, 2019 20:21

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

Discendo Vox posted:

Hahaha, that explains a shitton about the weird low-scale "independent" journalist coverage I'd been seeing echoing the Maduro line.

work out those muscles while the working out is good, buddy. you're going to need them nice and strong for when "independent" "journalist" "reports" start throwing around words like "massacre" and "crimes against humanity."

try out this template, from Honest Abrams himself, about the El Mozote... incident, in El Salvador: "It appears to be an incident that is at least being significantly misused, at the very best, by the guerrillas."

if the reporting- that Elliot's good buddies butchered an entire town, slit the throats of children, and hung the corpses from trees to serve as a warning- had been true, you see, it would have been VERY convenient for the left-wing opposition. why, according to the US embassy, only 300 people lived in the town, so they couldn't possibly have killed 800 people. another perfidious commie lie busted by Sensible Fact-Checking.

~guess the punchline to the story, boys and girls~

# ? Feb 12, 2019 20:25

vincentpricesboner: Sep 3, 2006; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Presenting Nipples posted:

We've been through this dog and pony show but can anyone name a source that doesn't have bias? It's a tautology to say "welp this source is biased" without going into details about how that individual piece distorts the truth.

Every time any information which contradicts the narrative that Maduro is responsible for every single problem in Venezuela and that a majority of Venezuelans support the opposition the knee-jerk reaction is "that's biased" without a sliver of critique of the actual evidence.

He is literally staying in a hotel right now with his rent,airfare and food being paid by the government. Figure that out.

# ? Feb 12, 2019 20:34

Cease to Hope: Dec 12, 2011

zapplez posted:

He is literally staying in a hotel right now with his rent,airfare and food being paid by the government. Figure that out.

is there a source for this?

# ? Feb 12, 2019 20:35

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Isn't Max the guy who went from having the biggest US intervention boner in the world to decrying the White Helmets as al Qaeda terrorists after one trip to Moscow?

# ? Feb 12, 2019 20:42

Rust Martialis: May 8, 2007; At night, Bavovnyatko quietly comes to the occupiers’ bases, depots, airfields, oil refineries and other places full of flammable items and starts playing with fire there

Gozinbulx posted:

I mean I think its important to watch the video and see venezuelans who presumably still support the PSUV manifesting themselves on camera, no problem with that, but yes Max Blumenthal has made his bones these last couple of years by being correctly skeptical of all western media while concurrently being a credulous shithead to awful people like direct interviews with Daniel Ortega and basically buying every PSUV talking point at face value.

Off topic, but "Thrang Thrang".

# ? Feb 12, 2019 20:45

Mean Baby: May 28, 2005

zapplez posted:

He is literally staying in a hotel right now with his rent,airfare and food being paid by the government. Figure that out.

That's fine, there is bias. Can you give me an source free of bias?

# ? Feb 12, 2019 20:46

Grapplejack: Nov 27, 2007

I'd hope they aren't dumb enough to do a purge like that a third time. You'd think that the Ba'athist purge would have taught them something but.

# ? Feb 12, 2019 20:49

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Presenting Nipples posted:

That's fine, there is bias. Can you give me an source free of bias?

Astonishingly, there are such things as different levels and forms of bias. We know this.

Discendo Vox posted:

There are, in fact, ways to approach information sources that don't require either

1. Totalizing, solipsistic relativism about bias. This position lets the believer select whatever messages cater to their prior beliefs, and makes them a fantastic mark for misleading messages. Like, yes, we know postmodernism is a thing. This is much less mind-blowing than you think it is.
2. Strict privileging the positions of specific message sources, be they "capitalist-owned corporate western media" or "owned by foreigners" or anything else. I mean, the idea that folks are doing this is kinda facile, but that's the tomato that's getting thrown.

Alternatives to either of these approaches require some degree of scrutiny of the construction of messages, and I don't mean a broad theory of "media". I mean actually looking at the motivations and constitution of specific sources, and the techniques and tools used in the creation of specific messages. Not all messages or sources are equal, and none are absolutely trustworthy, but we can use other sources of information, observation, and logic testing to identify the motives, methods, accuracy, and, ultimately, trustworthiness of sources.

In analyzing sources, we are flawed and imperfect. One of our biggest weaknesses is that our resources are limited, and we are vulnerable to manipulation by deceptive sources, even those we know we should not trust. Sources that have a deliberate, intentional program of deception are thus worth rejecting out of hand, except (when we have the time and tools) to study them and identify how they are trying to abuse the good faith of our analysis.

Message scrutiny is time and effort-intensive, which is why we use a variety of heuristics to allocate our respective uncertainty about messages. On technical or specialized subjects, or anything where we don't have subject-specific knowledge, one of the most straightforward heuristics is to find people with direct knowledge that can directly respond to questions.

One of the strongest anchors this thread has in evaluating sources information is that we have posters who are actually personally familiar with the situation in Venezuela, who don't just post news, but who are also so generous that they answer questions and respond to pushback. People who are able to do this about Venezuela (or, in other threads, about cars, or law, or video games, or what have you) are what makes this forum great. It's why I spend so much time asking questions and discussing sources, rather than giving definitive statements.

So,

Discendo Vox posted:

Try again, Nipples.

# ? Feb 12, 2019 20:53

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Presenting Nipples posted:

That's fine, there is bias. Can you give me an source free of bias?

Is this an "all sources are equally trustworthy because bias exists" argument?

# ? Feb 12, 2019 20:53

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; We don't need to have that dialogue because it's obvious, trivial, and has already been had a thousand times.

Rent-A-Cop posted:

Is this an "all sources are equally trustworthy because bias exists" argument?

It's an "all sources are equally untrustworthy, so I will uncritically believe whatever confirms my previously held beliefs" argument.

# ? Feb 12, 2019 20:58

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

Grapplejack posted:

I'd hope they aren't dumb enough to do a purge like that a third time. You'd think that the Ba'athist purge would have taught them something but.

the thing is that the purge is great short-term politics. demonstrating that you will not be suffering any of the previous regime's enforcers to hold power? i could blame exactly none of the people who've been on the receiving end of the military's tender graces for responding to that with an echoing "HELL YES." and you can use that goodwill to absolutely loving LIQUIDATE the country. yes, the new government is selling off everything to Halliburton, but they got rid of the guy who had the poo poo beaten out of my cousin. maybe they're not so bad.

there is a reason we run this playbook every time. it does exactly what we want it to do.

# ? Feb 12, 2019 21:01

Rust Martialis: May 8, 2007; At night, Bavovnyatko quietly comes to the occupiers’ bases, depots, airfields, oil refineries and other places full of flammable items and starts playing with fire there

Discendo Vox posted:

It's an "all sources are equally untrustworthy, so I will uncritically believe whatever confirms my previously held beliefs" argument.

This habit then leads certain posters to accuse everyone who wants Maduro out of: cheering on a civil war and US military invasion, loving right-wing death squads, and approving of Elliot Abrams personally sledgehammering Venezuelan babies to death.

# ? Feb 12, 2019 21:03

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

Rust Martialis posted:

This habit then leads certain posters to accuse everyone who wants Maduro out of: cheering on a civil war and US military invasion, loving right-wing death squads, and approving of Elliot Abrams personally sledgehammering Venezuelan babies to death.

"maybe he's grown out of it" is an unconvincing argument for why US intervention will not result in that outcome, yes

# ? Feb 12, 2019 21:07

Party Plane Jones: Jul 1, 2007; by Reene; Fun Shoe

https://twitter.com/cjcmichel/status/1095413640902123525

# ? Feb 12, 2019 21:07

Rust Martialis: May 8, 2007; At night, Bavovnyatko quietly comes to the occupiers’ bases, depots, airfields, oil refineries and other places full of flammable items and starts playing with fire there

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:

...the new government is selling off everything to Halliburton...

How is the *current* government selling everything to Rosneft or Sinopec somehow any different? Do you think Russian or Chinese companies are somehow "better" or meaningfully different from US ones?

If so, how?

# ? Feb 12, 2019 21:11

Rust Martialis: May 8, 2007; At night, Bavovnyatko quietly comes to the occupiers’ bases, depots, airfields, oil refineries and other places full of flammable items and starts playing with fire there

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:

"maybe he's grown out of it" is an unconvincing argument for why US intervention will not result in that outcome, yes

Since the point was that nobody here likes Abrams, why keep saying they do? It's a lie.

# ? Feb 12, 2019 21:13

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

Rust Martialis posted:

Since the point was that nobody here likes Abrams, why keep saying they do? It's a lie.

marvellous! so i assume they will support factions that oppose giving him any more power over Venezuela, then?

no? they won't?

they view bringing Good Ol' Uncle Sledgehammer Massacre in as the price they are willing to pay to get rid of that fucker Maduro, confident in the knowledge that it won't be -them- who ends up in the mass graves?

how very strange

# ? Feb 12, 2019 21:21

Mean Baby: May 28, 2005

Do you think the people in the interview are paid actors? That is the perception I�m getting from dismissing them because the person interviewing them is in disagreement with your worldview. I think we have a phrase for that kind of thinking...

# ? Feb 12, 2019 22:03

Rust Martialis: May 8, 2007; At night, Bavovnyatko quietly comes to the occupiers’ bases, depots, airfields, oil refineries and other places full of flammable items and starts playing with fire there

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:

marvellous! so i assume they will support factions that oppose giving him any more power over Venezuela, then?

no? they won't?

they view bringing Good Ol' Uncle Sledgehammer Massacre in as the price they are willing to pay to get rid of that fucker Maduro, confident in the knowledge that it won't be -them- who ends up in the mass graves?

how very strange

I support the opposition to Maduro. Because he is starving, imprisoning and torturing Venezuelans. Maduro must go, and democratic government restored.

As has been patiently explained to you by various Venegoons, they will take US support if that is what is required to get rid of the current dictator. If the US oversteps the mark, they will then oppose the US. You simply assume the worst possible outcome is the *only* outcome. Others do not. It would greatly improve the quality of discussion here if you would stop mis-characterizing others positions as you do.

You have repeatedly stated your view that this will end horribly. You seem rather excited at the prospect, in fact. Others remain hopeful that you are wrong. Do you have anything else to contribute to the discussion other than that Elliot Abrams is a truly horrible person, a point which I think we all agree on?

Simply doing nothing to oppose Maduro because things *might* get "worse", when things are intolerable *now*, is to me a position of abject craven cowardice and utter indifference to actual suffering.

# ? Feb 12, 2019 22:07

Saladman: Jan 12, 2010

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:

the US' playbook on what you do in a situation where the military is hostile to the US' interests involves a complete purge of the officer class from any positions of power. as you can see from recent examples in Libya and Iraq, this generates two wonderful side effects.

I like how people say "well the alternative is civil war and unrest!!" is an argument for keeping Maduro in power, and that these people pretend to be leftists. You know who else uses that exact same loving argument? All the awful right-wing fascists supporting Israel and the "secular" dictatorships of the MENA region.

Yes a brutal Syrian-esque civil war is worse in the short-term and long-term for Venezuela than keeping Maduro in power, but that's not exactly the only option now is it? Or even a very likely scenario? And a North-South Vietnam/Korea situation is also essentially impossible since how would you geographically separate Venezuela? I think the majority of Venezuelans would rather roll the dice on regime change because the expected value of a revolution in Venezuela is much more likely to turn up as Tunisia, Panama, or Egypt than it is to turn up as Syria or Iraq (or even Libya). I can't imagine the military turning into competing warring factions in Venezuela, that seems fully impossible even if Colombia and the US intervened militarily with large numbers of foreign boots on the ground, of which there is 0 chance of it happening. Either the military turns or it doesn't, just like in Egypt. Even if you believe there's some military buildup, do you seriously think the US is going to send like 100k soldiers to Venezuela? No, at most they'll try some Bay of Pigs thing which would fail miserably and turn the Venezuelan population back to supporting Maduro.

I personally think the Egypt or Angola models are the most likely case scenarios for Maduro being ousted, neither of which bode well for the country, but even so I think most people would roll the dice on that because there's always the chance it will end up like Panama or Tunisia.

Still it's hard for people on the ground regardless of what happens. Even today people in Tunisia grumble about the revolution, even though they had a dictatorship, corruption-without-recourse, an utterly sclerotic government, and absolutely no path forward under Ben Ali. But, GDP per capita has dropped by �10% since 2009 and the PPP has probably dropped by more due to the crash of the dinar, and that's by far on the mind of anyone who's not upper-middle class or above.

Saladman fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Feb 12, 2019

# ? Feb 12, 2019 22:09

Acebuckeye13: Nov 2, 2010; Ultra Carp

Interesting article here: China Talks With Venezuela Opposition to Protect Investments

Wall Street Journal, so take it with whatever grains of salt you desire, but the takeaway seems to be that internationally there's not likely to be a ton of support for Maduro. China wants its oil and Russia wants its money, and even before the current crisis the ability of Maduro's government to provide either was rapidly declining.

quote:

CARACAS, Venezuela�China has been holding talks with Venezuela�s political opposition to safeguard its investments in the troubled Latin American nation, hedging its bets as pressure builds on Nicol�s Maduro, the embattled leader for whom Beijing has been a vital ally.

Chinese diplomats, worried over the future of its oil projects in Venezuela and nearly $20 billion that Caracas owes Beijing, have held debt negotiations in Washington in recent weeks with representatives of Juan Guaid�, the opposition leader heading the U.S.-backed efforts to oust Mr. Maduro, according to people familiar with the talks.

�China recognizes the increasing risk of a regime change and does not want to be on the bad side of a new regime,� said R. Evan Ellis, an expert on Chinese relations in Latin America at the U.S. Army War College. �While they prefer stability, they realize they have to put eggs in the other basket.�

The talks are a sign of the apprehensions building with creditors of Venezuela�s leftist government. Over nearly two decades, loans-for-oil deals with China and Russia have provided vital support for Venezuela. Relations flourished under Mr. Maduro�s predecessor, the late socialist strongman Hugo Ch�vez, who fortified ties with those countries, Cuba, Iran and even India in an effort to combat U.S. power.

But commercial and financial ties with these countries have been strained since Mr. Maduro, Mr. Ch�vez�s handpicked successor, took power in 2013 and the economy began to shrink, with oil production plummeting by more than half after years of rampant graft and mismanagement.

Sanctions leveled by Washington last month on Venezuela�s oil industry have exacerbated Mr. Maduro�s difficulties, cutting off Venezuela�s only meaningful source of income and portending further declines in oil output.

China�s Foreign Ministry didn�t respond to a request for comment about Beijing�s contacts with the Venezuelan opposition. In recent weeks, the ministry has suggested that discussions are taking place and Beijing wants to see its interests respected.

Asked about rumored talks at a media briefing on Feb. 1, Foreign Ministry spokesman Geng Shuang said Beijing �has been in close communication with all parties in various ways on the situation in Venezuela.�

�No matter how the situation evolves,� Mr. Geng said, �China-Venezuela cooperation should not be undermined.�

Mr. Guaid� has publicly extended olive branches to China and Russia. The young National Assembly chief, whom lawmakers chose to lead an interim presidency in a direct challenge to Mr. Maduro, has argued that political change would be a precursor to economic reforms to restore stability.

Venezuela, which sits atop the world�s largest oil reserves, should maintain ties with China, the world�s biggest oil importer, he said.

The fall of the Maduro government could work to China�s advantage, said Mr. Ellis. �Guaid� could help lift [U.S.] sanctions and get oil flowing again. At the end China has everything to gain from Guaid�,� he said.

People familiar with the debt-repayment talks said there are significant hurdles. Venezuela has borrowed from China more than $50 billion in a series of loans-for-oil agreements since 2007, and according to estimates by China�s Commerce Ministry it still owes Beijing around $20 billion.

China is unwilling to take a significant loss on its loans, as some of the opposition�s economic advisers have suggested for lenders, including holders of the country�s defaulted bonds, according to two of the people familiar with the talks. Both sides have been discussing grace periods on repayment plans to give any potential Venezuelan transitional government breathing space, they said.

Opposition lawmakers have also long clamored to make the terms of China�s loan deals with Venezuela more transparent, which Beijing opposes, according to two of the people familiar with the negotiations.

Like China, Russia has publicly supported Mr. Maduro but has shown little willingness to prop up the government with fresh funds. Neither ally has granted large loans to Venezuela in recent years. Their joint oil ventures in Venezuela have been subject to the corruption and operational difficulties felt across the country�s oil industry, energy consultants said.

One director of a company that provides oil-field valves and tubes to Chinese and Russian state firms operating in Venezuela said the company had only made one sale in all of 2018. �The Chinese, the Russians, I just don�t see them putting any money in,� the director said.

Moscow is open to dialogue with Mr. Guaid�, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov suggested this month, saying Russia expected to maintain cooperation with Caracas �regardless of political developments in the country.�

The Trump administration�s sanctions aim to redirect oil assets and revenue away from Mr. Maduro and into the hands of Mr. Guaid�, closing off access to Venezuela�s biggest cash customers.

Venezuelan officials have been seeking new buyers for their heavy oil, which until January could be refined at specially fitted American installations.

On Sunday, the state-run Saudi tanker company, Bahri, said one of its vessels had traveled to Venezuela to load crude for one of Caracas�s regular customers in India. Bahri said the shipment would be completed before the end of a grace period set by U.S. sanctions.

On Monday, Venezuela Oil Minister Manuel Quevedo was in New Delhi, seeking to increase sales to India, his ministry said.

But Indian officials have said privately that they have grown impatient with Venezuela, which for several years has delayed repayment of nearly $500 million owed to state oil company ONGC Videsh Ltd.

Venezuela�s government has also fallen into arrears with Indian pharmaceutical companies that once thrived here, forcing many of them to shift operations out of the country as social and economic conditions deteriorated.

�Private entities in India have little reason to go out of their way to ramp up imports in such a chaotic situation,� said Smita Purushottam, a former Indian ambassador to Venezuela who recently retired from the Foreign Ministry.

�My view is that the people of Venezuela are fighting for survival,� she said. �They have suffered for too long and perhaps the only way forward is to start anew, under international supervision, to minimize their suffering and rekindle hope.�

# ? Feb 12, 2019 22:11

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

Rust Martialis posted:

I support the opposition to Maduro. Because he is starving, imprisoning and torturing Venezuelans. Maduro must go, and democratic government restored.

As has been patiently explained to you by various Venegoons, they will take US support if that is what is required to get rid of the current dictator. If the US oversteps the mark, they will then oppose the US. You simply assume the worst possible outcome is the *only* outcome. Others do not. It would greatly improve the quality of discussion here if you would stop mis-characterizing others positions as you do.

You have repeatedly stated your view that this will end horribly. You seem rather excited at the prospect, in fact. Others remain hopeful that you are wrong. Do you have anything else to contribute to the discussion other than that Elliot Abrams is a truly horrible person, a point which I think we all agree on?

Simply doing nothing to oppose Maduro because things *might* get "worse", when things are intolerable *now*, is to me a position of abject craven cowardice and utter indifference to actual suffering.

it is good that you "remain hopeful" that supporting putting Elliot "I Am Confident Whatever Happened At El Mozote Was Just A Series Of Lies Told By The Left To Slander The Opposition" Abrams in a position of power over Venzuelans will not end badly.

do you have anything to back up these hopes, friend.

anything, at all.

# ? Feb 12, 2019 22:16

Saladman: Jan 12, 2010

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:

it is good that you "remain hopeful" that supporting putting Elliot "I Am Confident Whatever Happened At El Mozote Was Just A Series Of Lies Told By The Left To Slander The Opposition" Abrams in a position of power over Venzuelans will not end badly.

do you have anything to back up these hopes, friend.

anything, at all.

Why do you think Abrams is an all omnipotent god? Do you know that non-Americans have agency in their lives?

# ? Feb 12, 2019 22:21

fishmech: Jul 16, 2006; by VideoGames; Salad Prong

Kurnugia posted:

Because one of them is threatening to invade the country

So you don't oppose privatization in Venezuela then? You didn't have a problem with it from America before about 5 weeks ago and you'd suddenly care about all the old world capitalists' ownership of vast amounts of Venezuela's formerly public-controlled oil fields if one of them say, deposited a couple hundred mercenaries in the country? It doesn't seem like you're holding any kind of consistent opinions here really.

# ? Feb 12, 2019 22:23

dublish: Oct 31, 2011

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:

it is good that you "remain hopeful" that supporting putting Elliot "I Am Confident Whatever Happened At El Mozote Was Just A Series Of Lies Told By The Left To Slander The Opposition" Abrams in a position of power over Venzuelans will not end badly.

do you have anything to back up these hopes, friend.

anything, at all.

Presumably, people other than Elliot Abrams have agency with respect to Venezuela's situation. Venezuelans, for instance.

EFB, thanks Saladman.

# ? Feb 12, 2019 22:23

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

Saladman posted:

Why do you think Abrams is an all omnipotent god? Do you know that non-Americans have agency in their lives?

both Abrams and myself are quite clear on that! do you require any further examples of the way he traditionally solves the problem of Latin Americans having bouts of agency deemed inconvenient to a US puppet regime?

or do you have an opposition figure in mind who will put some limits on him? surely, someone among them has spoken out against such a butcher being charged with making Venezuela more tractable to US aims.

right

# ? Feb 12, 2019 22:38

Kurnugia: Sep 2, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

Saladman posted:

Why do you think Abrams is an all omnipotent god? Do you know that non-Americans have agency in their lives?

You do know what Abrams has been in charge of in the past, right? Maybe drawing some conjectures on what his interests and reasons for being in charge of US policy wrt Venezuela might be appropriate, based on his own past and (openly stated) personal beliefs. Or perhaps I'm just being an anti-american contrarian, looking at the past to get some ideas about the future.

fishmech posted:

So you don't oppose privatization in Venezuela then? You didn't have a problem with it from America before about 5 weeks ago and you'd suddenly care about all the old world capitalists' ownership of vast amounts of Venezuela's formerly public-controlled oil fields if one of them say, deposited a couple hundred mercenaries in the country? It doesn't seem like you're holding any kind of consistent opinions here really.

yeah

# ? Feb 12, 2019 22:39

Ruzihm: Aug 11, 2010; Group up and push mid, proletariat!

Rust Martialis posted:

Maduro must go, and democratic government restored.

Overthrowing a democratically elected leader is not democratic.

# ? Feb 12, 2019 23:27

Cease to Hope: Dec 12, 2011

Ruzihm posted:

Overthrowing a democratically elected leader is not democratic.

Both Guaido and Maduro were democratically elected and are trying to overthrow each other. It does not mean they are both equally legitimate claimants to the overall leadership of Venezuela, granted.

# ? Feb 12, 2019 23:45

Rust Martialis: May 8, 2007; At night, Bavovnyatko quietly comes to the occupiers’ bases, depots, airfields, oil refineries and other places full of flammable items and starts playing with fire there

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:

both Abrams and myself are quite clear on that!

You're the Rudy Giuliani of this thread now. Everything you say is: "Noun, verb, Elliot Abrams".

# ? Feb 13, 2019 00:00

Ruzihm: Aug 11, 2010; Group up and push mid, proletariat!

Cease to Hope posted:

Both Guaido and Maduro were democratically elected and are trying to overthrow each other. It does not mean they are both equally legitimate claimants to the overall leadership of Venezuela, granted.

Okay, and I would also be against the US removing Guaido from the position he was elected for :confused:

# ? Feb 13, 2019 00:00

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

Cease to Hope posted:

Both Guaido and Maduro were democratically elected and are trying to overthrow each other. It does not mean they are both equally legitimate claimants to the overall leadership of Venezuela, granted.

Maduro's 'election' is essentially a constitutional crisis - Guaido's one weird trick is kinda iffy but there aren't any other remedies either, Maduro jailed anyone who could plausibly have beaten him among other fuckery.

Saying "well the Supreme Court says Maduro's election is constitutional :smug:

" doesn't really mean poo poo when he stacked it with people who will support anything he does regardless of actual constitutionality, see the Constituent Assembly.

anyone who thinks Bolsonaro's election was iffy should be livid about Maduro's unless they're just of the opinion that anyone who says they're socialist must be supported full stop

# ? Feb 13, 2019 00:01

Ruzihm: Aug 11, 2010; Group up and push mid, proletariat!

Trump is stacking our supreme court with his buddies please invade

v ty bb

# ? Feb 13, 2019 00:02

Kurnugia: Sep 2, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

i would

# ? Feb 13, 2019 00:03

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:

it is good that you "remain hopeful" that supporting putting Elliot "I Am Confident Whatever Happened At El Mozote Was Just A Series Of Lies Told By The Left To Slander The Opposition" Abrams in a position of power over Venzuelans will not end badly.

do you have anything to back up these hopes, friend.

anything, at all.

Rust Martialis posted:

You're the Rudy Giuliani of this thread now. Everything you say is: "Noun, verb, Elliot Abrams".

so that's a no, then, I take it.

# ? Feb 13, 2019 00:03

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

Ruzihm posted:

Trump is stacking our supreme court with his buddies please invade

v ty bb

if Kavanaugh writes majority opinions saying it's fine that Trump imprisoned Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders, coerced federal workers to vote for him, and established his own superseding legislature, then I'd say that too is a constitutional crisis with limited to no remedies within the system

# ? Feb 13, 2019 00:09

dublish: Oct 31, 2011

Ruzihm posted:

Trump is stacking our supreme court with his buddies please invade

v ty bb

Trump and the Republicans, bad as they have been with all things Supreme Court related, have not yet started threatening or extorting judges to force their resignations.

# ? Feb 13, 2019 00:11

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 21, 2024 19:37

Cease to Hope: Dec 12, 2011

Ruzihm posted:

Trump is stacking our supreme court with his buddies please invade

Cease to Hope posted:

there's a lot of american leftists who can't keep their US chauvinism in their pants and don't understand that not every conversation everywhere is about the speaker's supposed affiliation in US politics.

# ? Feb 13, 2019 00:16

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

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