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Feb 11, 2019 19:11
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The Harkonnens are not known for well treatment of prisoners and all. It's not implied in the text, but that's kinda the fan theory: his Bene Gesserit wife had already worked witchy magic on him, so seeing her her tortured and begging him for help was able to snap the Suk conditioning.
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Feb 12, 2019 05:00
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MikeJF posted:It's not implied in the text, but that's kinda the fan theory: his Bene Gesserit wife had already worked witchy magic on him, so seeing her her tortured and begging him for help was able to snap the Suk conditioning. Really, one wonders why anyone would be - like if there's a mystery it is that, how come so many people worked with the Bene Gesserit? I suppose we mostly see them at the climax of their shadowy maneuvers, though.
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Feb 12, 2019 07:10
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I think people knew they were up to stuff, but they'd made themselves into one of the central support pillars of their society so they figured it couldn't be THAT serious, whatever it was.
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Feb 12, 2019 07:19
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Their whole thing was political maneuvering and image control, it's not surprising they were able to insert themselves everywhere.
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Feb 12, 2019 07:45
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and special pussy magic that everyone craves.
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Feb 12, 2019 08:19
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The whole BG thing is basically superpowered barely aging cunning loyal sex kittens willing to be concubines for the nobility no questions asked. Really not much surprise why said nobility lets them do their thing.
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Feb 12, 2019 08:49
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If some sorceress out of Anton LaVey's perviest dreams materialized out of the shadows you'd would probably end up giving her whatever she asked for. Having never seen this, I choose to believe it may be happening. A delusion is but a waylaid fantasy. The BG seem a lot more "overpowered" in the later books but that's just their natural evolution, I guess. The one thing I didn't get was why they had to use sex as a weapon as in the old days. Like, you're running the show now. Your planets form the administrative crux of the galaxies. Maybe you don't have an emperor to boss around anymore, but you've got better stuff and more of it. You still gotta master five levels of sex acrobatics or whatever? As far as Yueh's dead wife goes (sorry for the insensitivity, traitors get hosed) I think that was more just to point out how devious Piter is. Outsmarting a witch and her Suk doctor husband lets the reader know just how *evil* he is.
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Feb 12, 2019 09:09
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Probably out of tradition. Also, it's probably a lot of fun.
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Feb 12, 2019 09:31
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I think Yueh's conditioning didn't totally break. It's sort of a mental gymnastics grey area of course, but he was loyal to the Duke even in treachery, which is kind of a plans within plans scenario where one's acknowledgment of the vastness of a plot allows them to only shift the tides by playing a designated part. In that sense Yueh is still a bit of a tragic character.
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Feb 12, 2019 09:58
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The BG knows their power, and WE know their power, but hardly anyone else does. To even the Emperor, they are just a religious political force. Highly educated and trained in various diplomatic skills. Valued, but people dont know the depths.
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Feb 12, 2019 10:15
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I finished the first book today, and I really appreciate how Dune just gets poo poo done with its plot points instead of letting things stew in the background forever. Gurney: I think Jessica killed the Duke. I must plot a secret plan to kill her. *turn the page to a new chapter* Gurney jumps out of the shadows and tries to kill Jessica.
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Feb 12, 2019 10:39
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Reading the book again after 20 years. Yueh was unbelievably stupid, sorry to say. The foreplay of everybody casting away suspicions with regards to him because of ~~plot device~~ is a little weak. The endless internal monologues don't help the matter. Aside from that, the fact that Frank Herbert felt the need to vividly describe Halleck's mangled chin scar every time he spoke in the first 15 pages or so is not very good writing I must say! Anne Frank Funk fucked around with this message at 11:05 on Feb 12, 2019 |
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Feb 12, 2019 10:54
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Eh, it feels kinda fitting that people in certain roles and positions in society are considered completely beneath suspicion because of the cultural assumptions placed upon them. The Atriedes are considered unusually kind because they make a point of paying attention to the little guy and making sure their subjects have reasons to like them, and not getting rid of them on a paranoid whim like other nobles do. The whole point is that the star-spanning society is ultimately feudal in structure and culture, after all.
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Feb 12, 2019 12:02
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Yueh's conditioning is compromised because he hates the Baron and wants him dead (which is Suk Taboo #1). His wife is the initial handle, but the infinite regress of knowing that the Baron knows that Yueh's hate for him is subverting his conditioning is what does him in. The Baron courts Yueh's hatred and sets up a scenario where he knows that Yueh will twist his own code to get close enough to try to kill him. Yueh's conditioning won't let him do it himself, but he can convince himself that he's killing the Baron through Leto. The Baron expects this ploy, in some form, but he still gets what he wants so it's worth the risk. It is deeper than "kidnapped your wife lol," and it's a good display of how devious and self aware the Baron is.
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Feb 12, 2019 16:02
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Dune is a warhammer 40k prequel
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Feb 12, 2019 16:55
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Prolonged Priapism posted:Yueh's conditioning is compromised because he hates the Baron and wants him dead (which is Suk Taboo #1). His wife is the initial handle, but the infinite regress of knowing that the Baron knows that Yueh's hate for him is subverting his conditioning is what does him in. The Baron courts Yueh's hatred and sets up a scenario where he knows that Yueh will twist his own code to get close enough to try to kill him. Yueh's conditioning won't let him do it himself, but he can convince himself that he's killing the Baron through Leto. The Baron expects this ploy, in some form, but he still gets what he wants so it's worth the risk. I still like the Baron as this guffawing lunatic in the movie. 
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Feb 12, 2019 17:27
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Just want to say, been in a real Dune-ey mood lately and I'm really glad this thread exists. Also glad to see God Emperor finally getting the respect it deserves. That book blew my little teenage mind.
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Feb 13, 2019 00:41
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCTM9JoaKrg
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Feb 13, 2019 03:38
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I know worms are generally phallic in nature, but I've never really made the connections until that screencap. Why do those sandworms suddenly look like nothing but exotic penises?
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Feb 13, 2019 03:44
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phasmid posted:If some sorceress out of Anton LaVey's perviest dreams materialized out of the shadows you'd would probably end up giving her whatever she asked for. Having never seen this, I choose to believe it may be happening. A delusion is but a waylaid fantasy. Piter being really intimidating was part of the book that always fell flat for me. He's a mentat and the baron leads him around by the nose constantly and then he just dies because he was too dumb to predict Yueh's attack. You know, his job. It's just hard to write superhuman computer brain dudes as real characters I think, though Hawat is better.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:31
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andrew smash posted:Piter being really intimidating was part of the book that always fell flat for me. He's a mentat and the baron leads him around by the nose constantly and then he just dies because he was too dumb to predict Yueh's attack. You know, his job. It's just hard to write superhuman computer brain dudes as real characters I think, though Hawat is better. That's a fair point. Maybe Piter, in turn, is there to show how much better Hawat is. Like, Piter tells the Baron that he's not as bright as he thinks and Hawat's only meeting (in the book) has his internal monologue basically going "This is the guy who's been giving us all this trouble?" like he was something Hawat found on his boot.
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Feb 13, 2019 06:37
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I figure mentats are basically more like Mycroft Holmes; they're really good at carrying around lots of information and processing stuff when they put in the effort, but that doesn't make them superhumanly aware of everything (well, moreso than Dune mental superpowers already do) or always making the right decision, it just means they know lots of stuff. The whole thing is that they exist because computers are religiously prohibited but, much like with Navigators, a spacefaring society isn't possible without something to replace them.
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Feb 13, 2019 07:14
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Feb 13, 2019 08:19
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Feb 13, 2019 08:49
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I figure mentats are basically more like Mycroft Holmes; they're really good at carrying around lots of information and processing stuff when they put in the effort, but that doesn't make them superhumanly aware of everything (well, moreso than Dune mental superpowers already do) or always making the right decision, it just means they know lots of stuff. The whole thing is that they exist because computers are religiously prohibited but, much like with Navigators, a spacefaring society isn't possible without something to replace them.
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Feb 13, 2019 08:52
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Nessus posted:Piter was also twisted to be able to kill or something, which is weird because it seems like Hawat could still kick rear end? But it seems clear that 'twisted' means something specific rather than just that Piter was a grade-a rear end in a top hat and a real piece of work. The twisted mentats were produced by Tleilaxu and supposedly could be absolutely commanded and controlled regardless of any morality. That said, Duncan (during a life where he himself was a mentat) believed that twisting was bullshit, and they were just regular mentats with bad morals. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 12:22 on Feb 13, 2019 |
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Feb 13, 2019 12:15
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Feb 13, 2019 14:34
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That’s one of Giger's designs for the Jodorowsky movie, isn’t it?
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Feb 13, 2019 14:58
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I can't believe they're stringing us along with these other casting announcements while real dune fans are waiting with baited breath for Duncan Idaho casting news
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Feb 13, 2019 15:15
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I figure mentats are basically more like Mycroft Holmes; they're really good at carrying around lots of information and processing stuff when they put in the effort, but that doesn't make them superhumanly aware of everything (well, moreso than Dune mental superpowers already do) or always making the right decision, it just means they know lots of stuff. The whole thing is that they exist because computers are religiously prohibited but, much like with Navigators, a spacefaring society isn't possible without something to replace them. Yeah but even then Piter can't even see through the Baron telling him "yeah I'm totally going to make you duke of arrakis and I obviously will not have you killed immediately" and chuckling to himself over it. Like, Rabban has reasons to fall for that because his uncle wasn't previously in the business of killing close family. Rabban is also canonically kind of dumb and also not a mentat. Piter should have heard that and said "nah I'll take the ship and the lady Jessica thanks" (who would also have killed him immediately but as we've established, Piter is pretty stupid)
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Feb 13, 2019 15:26
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Pooter really was going to get arrakis in fief, though
A_Bug_That_Thinks fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Feb 13, 2019 |
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Feb 13, 2019 15:27
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A_Bug_That_Thinks posted:Puter really was going to get arrakis in fief, though The Baron explicitly, in his internal monologues, plans to let Piter go nuts on the populace and then kill him so Feyd-Rautha can be a hero
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Feb 13, 2019 15:29
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adebisi lives posted:I can't believe they're stringing us along with these other casting announcements while real dune fans are waiting with baited breath for Duncan Idaho casting news I want Brad dorif back as piter
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Feb 13, 2019 15:55
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andrew smash posted:The Baron explicitly, in his internal monologues, plans to let Piter go nuts on the populace and then kill him so Feyd-Rautha can be a hero Yeah. The going nuts portion wouldve lasted 10-15 years without Maud'dib. Feyd wasnt ready to take over arrakis at the end of dune, I'd say
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Feb 13, 2019 16:05
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andrew smash posted:Yeah but even then Piter can't even see through the Baron telling him "yeah I'm totally going to make you duke of arrakis and I obviously will not have you killed immediately" and chuckling to himself over it. Like, Rabban has reasons to fall for that because his uncle wasn't previously in the business of killing close family. Rabban is also canonically kind of dumb and also not a mentat. Piter should have heard that and said "nah I'll take the ship and the lady Jessica thanks" (who would also have killed him immediately but as we've established, Piter is pretty stupid) Piter explicitly says to the Baron 'I know you're going to have me killed, and I can predict when, but it's not yet because I'm too useful still"
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Feb 13, 2019 16:16
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John Cena as the bull
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Feb 13, 2019 16:23
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And even then at least in theory it could be 10-15 years of indulgent tyranny then faking your death and moving to some comfy planet to retire.
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Feb 13, 2019 16:23
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MikeJF posted:Piter explicitly says to the Baron 'I know you're going to have me killed, and I can predict when, but it's not yet because I'm too useful still" Yeah and when the baron dangles the bait in front of his face his reaction isn't "ah, here's the plot I predicted", it's "seriously? Cool"
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Feb 13, 2019 16:40
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The Bloop posted:John Cena as the bull
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Feb 13, 2019 17:34
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