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euphronius posted:Could have a multiple page argument on that. So let me just say : it’s arguably ok to blow up star killer base in the way portrayed. Part of this is: Starkiller Base is not depicted as having civilian inhabitants.
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Feb 13, 2019 22:46
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Bongo Bill posted:Part of this is: Starkiller Base is not depicted as having civilian inhabitants. It has an ecosystem that has survived the Starkiller project. The Resistance commits ecocide.
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Feb 13, 2019 22:51
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Map-chat is also good because it reveals that TFA had some somewhat intriguing ideas through implication and inference (Luke left the map behind as a test, Kylo Ren is not a big shot in the First Order, Snoke leads the First Order but doesn't give a poo poo about it or its material losses, the First Order isn't an expansive war machine, etc. etc) and then TLJ is just like: Actually, Luke didn't want to be found (so why did he leave the map?) Actually, Kylo Ren is a First Order warlord (can anyone seriously imagine this guy ruling territory?) Actually, Snoke loves the First Order because they'll help him destroy the concept of hope. Actually, the First Order has a fleet capable of subjugating the whole galaxy, and Poe has fought it before (so why is he so astounded by a single Star Destroyer?)
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Feb 13, 2019 22:53
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:It has an ecosystem that has survived the Starkiller project. The Resistance commits ecocide. Eh, what's one ecosystem in a galaxy chock full of single-climate habitable systems? I think it's pretty clearly moral to blow up a planet of non-sentient life in order to prevent trillions and trillions of human deaths. How many people were on Coruscant when The First Order melted it? Place seemed pretty densely populated.
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Feb 13, 2019 22:57
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kidkissinger posted:How many people were on Coruscant when The First Order melted it? Place seemed pretty densely populated. Coruscant wasn't populated with people, just capitalists. ruddiger fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Feb 13, 2019 |
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Feb 13, 2019 23:47
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Basebf555 posted:There's no justifiable reason to ever blow up an entire planetoid-sized space station, just as there's no justifiable reason to ever use nukes.
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Feb 14, 2019 00:55
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I said come in! posted:I am starting to accept that the sequel trilogy sucks rear end. The prequel trilogy also is terrible, but still. Star Wars in general might very well be garbage minus the original trilogy. This is all correct, but the designs of the prequels are very interesting at least.
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Feb 14, 2019 01:30
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Nah it goes OT>>ST>Rogue One>>>Solo>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Prequels
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Feb 14, 2019 01:33
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ruddiger posted:Coruscant wasn't populated with people, just capitalists. There are also a large number of droid slaves. This thread has taught me that although I used to care about Star Wars, I now do not care about Star Wars. It being a jumbled assemblage of accidents is the best explanation I've heard, but the result is that I honestly don't care what happens in Episode 9. Is Rogue One not well-liked, though? I actually found it to be great. The only good Star Wars media to come out of the Disney deal.
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Feb 14, 2019 01:49
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Xealot posted:Is Rogue One not well-liked, though? I actually found it to be great. The only good Star Wars media to come out of the Disney deal. Solo is the only Disney one that's not well-liked. The rest of them made shitloads of money and got shitloads of critical acclaim.
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Feb 14, 2019 01:52
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PostNouveau posted:Solo is the only Disney one that's not well-liked. The rest of them made shitloads of money and got shitloads of critical acclaim. Oh, no, I don't mean so much, "was it profitable" or "did critics like it." I mean, in the CD moon-person estimation, was Rogue One well-received or was it considered some nostalgia-bating trashfire that fails because it's Merely Liberal™ or whatever. Solo wasn't interesting enough to be disliked. It wasn't a bad movie, just so entirely unnecessary in every way.
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Feb 14, 2019 02:17
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Xealot posted:I mean, in the CD moon-person estimation, was Rogue One well-received or was it considered some nostalgia-bating trashfire that fails because it's Merely Liberal™ or whatever Ohhhh, yeah I think in the CD moon-person estimation it's Prequels>>>>>>>>>>>>Citizen Kane>>OT=Rogue One>>>Solo>>>>>>ST
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Feb 14, 2019 02:23
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The prequels and originals are about equally good, though the worst of the six is one of the originals. Rogue One is close behind them (and in terms of ideology it's pretty obviously critical of liberalism so I can tell you're not from the moon). Solo's pretty much lousy. This post is canon.
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Feb 14, 2019 02:35
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The worst of the six are the prequels
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Feb 14, 2019 02:47
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PostNouveau posted:Ohhhh, yeah I think in the CD moon-person estimation it's *checks notes* looks about right. I think this is the better representation of CineD.  E: from https://youtu.be/8CiuSr-6xP4 ruddiger fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Feb 14, 2019 |
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Feb 14, 2019 02:50
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ruddiger posted:*checks notes* looks about right. SMG and CineD are incomprehensible shapes in the darkness?
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Feb 14, 2019 05:38
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Worst to best: TFA Solo ROTJ TLJ TPM New Hope ROTS=Rogue One AOTC Empire Valerian And The City Of A Thousand Planets
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Feb 14, 2019 05:43
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If pseudo star wars are fair game, then the top spot probably goes to ace combat 5
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Feb 14, 2019 05:49
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valerian blows, just a garbage cast nice design as expected
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Feb 14, 2019 05:54
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The trouble is that the ST was in fact produced by accident. It’s a jumble of conflicting intentions, studio reshoots, repurposed footage, two different directors. They accidentally put grass on Jakku, and now it’s there. Wow, this is the most agreeable thing you've posted in a while.
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Feb 14, 2019 06:24
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There is no CD moon logic. The prequels are good but not great. Prequels haters are weird. I really liked Rogue One.
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Feb 14, 2019 06:33
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I just can't get past the excruciatingly bad performances in the prequel trilogy or the weird racist caricature. They have neat design and I guess some neat thematic ideas but Hayden Christensen especially is just nails on a chalkboard
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Feb 14, 2019 06:44
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Cease to Hope posted:I just can't get past the excruciatingly bad performances in the prequel trilogy or the weird racist caricature. They have neat design and I guess some neat thematic ideas but Hayden Christensen especially is just nails on a chalkboard Lol, there are no weird racist caricatures. None of them conform to the actual stereotypes except in extremely superficial ways used by internet people to make snarky comments. Mostly it comes down to "has an accent = bad".
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Feb 14, 2019 07:09
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okay. i guess a flied lice caricature accent along with costume design that reminded me of flash gordon was enough to annoy me.
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Feb 14, 2019 07:35
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Cease to Hope posted:okay. i guess a flied lice caricature accent The neimoidians' accent does not have this feature.
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Feb 14, 2019 07:49
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huh, maybe i misremembered. https://youtu.be/pj-j9zoIRro nope! still extremely-an-english-guy-doing-a-bad-accent, just like i recalled. I didn't recall the extremely weird mouth puppeteering. It's been a while. Is it intentionally recalling bad dubbing, or just an unintended consequence of the character/costume design? I do think it's weird how much people tie up their identity on hating the prequels though. Sometimes art is bad, it's not some grave injustice against whatever.
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Feb 14, 2019 07:58
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Listen with your ears. Neimoidians don't transpose any vowels. Additionally, the mouth movements on the puppets match the delivery of the lines, and the puppets' mouth joins are more articulated than, say, Yoda's.
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Feb 14, 2019 08:20
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Cease to Hope posted:huh, maybe i misremembered. L and R sounds are quite distinct here. Compare the initial L sound in “lord” with the initial R in “report.”
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Feb 14, 2019 08:20
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Bongo Bill posted:Additionally, the mouth movements on the puppets match the delivery of the lines, and the puppets' mouth joins are more articulated than, say, Yoda's. it's especially bad at the end of the clip; look at how gunray's mouth movements are so badly out of step with "have something to report". It may be that that's just one bad moment, though. I don't have a burning desire to rewatch TPM, so everything is going to be filtered through a dozen ish years of memory. It turns out what I remembered as flied lice accents was a lesser example in the same tradition of caricature, but it still felt offputting and uncomfortable and distracting in a theater in 1999. I understand the decision to replace straight up alien languages with stage accents was to avoid an hour of subtitles in a two hour movie, but no sir I don't like it.
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Feb 14, 2019 08:35
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it is interesting that TFA's cast has someone who actually played ming the merciless though
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Feb 14, 2019 08:59
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Memories are mutable, unfortunately. If we haven't watched something in a long time, the parts about it we remember are the parts that corroborate our current beliefs - even if it means "remembering" a falsehood. Which beliefs we end up with are influenced by our own cultural context; interpretations gain traction based on the recycling of imagery, based on memetic staying power, based on ideology, based on random chance. This happens all the time with pop culture artifacts: the actual sights and sounds are supplanted by a glib parody, and it creates a cultural context in which any attempted interpretation will be pulled away from one supported by the source material, and even toward its opposite. To use an example outside of this franchise: how often does Captain Kirk woo a beautiful space woman? (The answer may surprise you.) This is why it's necessary to be critical about art that you care enough about to discuss seriously. If you base your reading on the way the thing is remembered, rather than on the actual attributes of the thing itself, you're allowing somebody else to do your thinking for you, accepting uncritically whatever ideology that thought transmits. And that can be dangerous when the memory is inaccurate.
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Feb 14, 2019 09:18
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the distinct memory is thinking "wow, these dudes with the fake-rear end ming the merciless accents and costumes plotting to kidnap the white girl is real uncomfortable". remembering it as worse than it was - and it is still real bad - doesn't mean that wasn't my contemporaneous reaction. that clip still skeeves me the same way it did 20 years ago. disliking the prequel trilogy is what pushed me away from star wars as a whole for a real long time. it's worth contrasting directly with B&W Flash Gordon, which did not bother me as a kid but bothered me as an adult, both 20 years ago and now. Lucas kept the costuming, the main goal, and the bad stage accents (worth keeping in mind that Charles Middleton didn't transpose consonants either), and that just sucks rear end. Weird rubber faces and the removal of the overt sexuality didn't really make it less uncomfortable to me. reading about it now, apparently accusing TPM of racial caricature is a whole thing, and while i understand the stuff other people now say about jar-jar and watto, they didn't bother me at the time. but the neimoidians did. if you're going to try to insinuate that i was actually fooled into misremembering how i reacted by an extremely online internet controversy, you're going to have to do better than that.
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Feb 14, 2019 09:38
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They don't have Ming the Merciless accents. They're also not planning to kidnap a white girl, they want her to sign a peace treaty.
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Feb 14, 2019 10:14
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Nute Gunray's resemblance to Ming the Merciless - or, let's be honest, to Fu Manchu, whom Ming is based on - is superficial. It literally consists only of the continent his accent comes from. He's no mastermind, he's a timid stooge who has to be goaded by the true villain into escalating the war and frets that he's gotten in over his head. There is no sexuality, overt or otherwise, in his intentions for Padme; he doesn't need Padme herself, just her signature. He's a trader who dresses like a Catholic bishop. A similar superficiality is present in all of the major alien characters in the movie. In each case, the protagonists - white humans in positions of authority with posh accents - never look beyond their instantaneous judgments. In Nute Gunray, they see an avaricious and cunning conqueror, failing to notice he's a pawn who's been sacrificed to make Palpatine the Chancellor. In Jar Jar, they see a pathetic imbecile, even though he is in fact loyal, courageous, tireless, talented, and idealistic. In Watto, they see a cruel and exploitative slave-owner, ignoring and disbelieving the system that upholds whole worlds of people just like him. In Darth Maul, they see a demonic incarnation of elemental wrath, never stopping to consider he might have a motive. At the end of the movie, the villain gets everything he wants and throws himself a parade, and the audience will remember that the events set in motion here eventually lead to the creation of the Empire and tragedy for all these characters. It's a movie in which the "good guys" repeatedly fail to see this problem - its title is synonymous with "The Unseen Problem." These characters who are misunderstood by the protagonists are othered, using the same instruments of caricature with which real peoples are othered - strong accents, ingratiating servility, vices, "sudden" violence, and so forth. None of those attributes are specific references to anyone. You picked up on the fact that the depiction of these characters includes these unsympathetic, even dehumanizing attributes - but who, exactly, is being dehumanized? If you read Nute Gunray as a Yellow Peril villain, you should ask what exactly does he have in common with a Yellow Peril stereotype?
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Feb 14, 2019 10:23
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Xealot posted:Oh, no, I don't mean so much, "was it profitable" or "did critics like it." I mean, in the CD moon-person estimation, was Rogue One well-received or was it considered some nostalgia-bating trashfire that fails because it's Merely Liberal™ or whatever. The first half of rogue one is the worst stars wars, the second half is the best, therefore, it's solidly average
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Feb 14, 2019 10:44
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Bongo Bill posted:If you read Nute Gunray as a Yellow Peril villain, you should ask what exactly does he have in common with a Yellow Peril stereotype? the accent you brushed off, his costume, the kidnapping plot, any awareness you might have that Lucas cites Flash Gordon as an inspiration, the slit-eyed mask of his underling in that clip i linked The decision to give the aliens real-world accents (and thus all of the attendant real-world baggage) is itself a decision meriting criticism. They could have spoken subtitled gibberish, plain English with the same accents as the actors themselves, or with completely fantastical accents, but they didn't. There are ways to otherize fictional aliens - particularly incompetent and pathetic aliens - other than giving them the particular fake accent people used to otherize actual human beings in a series that inspired this one. It's just a funny coincidence that doesn't mean anything, but Ming is a flat-nosed, large-chinned green alien in a 1996 Flash Gordon animated series. e: Worth mentioning I do just like Bongo Bill's thematic analysis of Phantom Menace here otherwise. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 11:50 on Feb 14, 2019 |
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Feb 14, 2019 11:38
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I Before E posted:Valerian And The City Of A Thousand Planets Hell yeah my dude! Also New Hope is the best Star Wars film. Attack of the Clones is the best prequel. Rogue One is the only good Disney film, though Vader and CG Leia drag it down. Return of the Jedi is the ugliest of all the films, but has some great moments. Yub Nub 4 Life
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Feb 14, 2019 11:40
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Cease to Hope posted:the accent you brushed off, his costume, the kidnapping plot, any awareness you might have that Lucas cites Flash Gordon as an inspiration, the slit-eyed mask of his underling in that clip i linked These fall apart if you pay any attention. You keep insinuating for some reason that Nute Gunray wants to rape a white girl. He doesn't. The Neimoidians aren't trying to undermine the white race, they want to resolve a taxation dispute in their own favour.
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Feb 14, 2019 11:49
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if this quote (at 0:50) doesn't strike you as a distracting put-on fake east asian accent, then i don't think we can agree https://youtu.be/hrYV7wS3JUk?t=50 the slit-eye mask assistant that responds just compounds it. arguing that lucas wants you to think that these (plainly incompetent) villains are secretly masterminds by coding them asian is not a good basis for calling this not distractingly racist.
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Feb 14, 2019 12:48
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Bongo Bill posted:To use an example outside of this franchise: how often does Captain Kirk woo a beautiful space woman? (The answer may surprise you.) Please surprise me. I want to know.
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Feb 14, 2019 12:57
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