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Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'
I have always thought that fantasy protagonist names beginning with K are the most cliche. Especially what amounts to Keiran spelled differently.

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poisonpill
Nov 8, 2009

The only way to get huge fast is to insult a passing witch and hope she curses you with Beast-strength.


my bony fealty posted:

audacious worldbuilding

Tolkien elves and whales!

porfiria
Dec 10, 2008

by Modern Video Games

lofi posted:

'Nothing but several dozen sixty-foot-long limbless blue elephants' is the name of my new math-rock band.

Not for nothing does the author mention Joss Whedon in her goodreads profile.

my bony fealty
Oct 1, 2008

are there really loving footnotes

look I have a high tolerance for bad writing and love lots of fantasy books but this is beyond the pale. burn the entire fantasy publishing industry to the ground. take hard sci fi with it.

Fuzzy Mammal
Aug 15, 2001

Lipstick Apathy
Here's how she introduced thread favourite, a dragon:

quote:

“He’ll hear you. SING!” Teraeth held up his entire fist. “FIVE!”

I’d sung in strange situations back at the Shattered Veil, but usually it was a distraction from more prurient goings on, not from imminent threat of death. And the stone around my neck was hot, scalding hot.

I picked out the first song that came to mind, because it was one of the last I’d performed in public. It felt strange to sing it without the harp Valathea to accompany me.

Let me tell you a tale of
Four brothers strong,
Red, yellow, violet, and indigo,
To whom all the land and
Sea once did belong.
Red, yellow, violet, and indigo…

“Perfect.” Teraeth shouted. “Keep singing! Six! NOW!”

As if it was following Teraeth’s instructions, the Maw flung The Misery far from the opening. I’ve never traveled so fast, so dizzyingly, sickeningly fast, in my entire life. We blasted out of the Maw with nauseating speed. As soon as we’d cleared the vortex, I heard the screams of sailors as the kraken moved.

One day they saw the veils
Of the same lady fair
Red, yellow, violet, and indigo
And each one did claim
Her hand would be theirs.
Red, yellow, violet, and indigo…

We shot toward the rocks of the Desolation, missing being torn apart by the slimmest of margins. Unfortunately we headed toward a small rocky island that would be large enough and hard enough to do the job anyway.

The island opened its eyes. The air trapped in my throat as I saw it. Teraeth whispered in a furious voice, “Keep singing!”

I swallowed my fear and continued the song.

Let go of your claim!
They yelled at their brothers,
Red, yellow, violet, and indigo
And each screamed back,
She will never be another’s!
Red, yellow, violet, and indigo…

“Gods,” I heard Juval say as he pulled himself on deck. “What have you—? That—We’ve got to turn back.”

“There’s no turning back,” Teraeth said. “We run and the Old Man will chase. He likes it when his prey runs.”

As I sang, the island uncurled itself and shook off the accumulated dirt and dust of years asleep. The head was a long and sinuous shape, twisting and joining with a mass of muscle, sinew, and dull mottled scales. The wings, when spread, seemed like they might black out all the sky.

“I’ll take my chances with the kraken.” Juval screamed. “That we can fight. That’s a gods-be-damned DRAGON you’re running us into!”

And so it was.

The dragon was sooty black, the color of thick coal ash. The cracks under its scales pulsed and glowed as if those scaly plates barely contained an inferno.

No forge glowed hotter than its eyes.

No story I’d heard of a dragon—of how big they are, how fierce, how deadly, how terrifying—did justice to the reality. This creature would decimate armies. No lone idiot riding a horse and carrying a spear ever stood a chance.

So they raised up their flags
And they readied for war
Red, yellow, violet, and indigo
The battle was grim and
The fields filled with gore
Red, yellow, violet, and indigo
And when it was done
Every mother was in tears
Red, yellow, violet, and indigo…

“Stand back, Captain, or you won’t live to see if we survive this.” Teraeth’s voice was calm, smooth, and threatening.

I didn’t look at them. What could I do? I sang. I heard them arguing behind me, and behind that, the noise of crew members screaming as they fought the kraken. It was cacophony on a grand scale, and I couldn’t believe the dragon could distinguish the sources of all that noise.

The dragon opened its mouth. At first, I heard nothing, but then the rumbling roar hit me. Ripples spread out over the water, rocks shattered and split from the islands, the very wood of The Misery throbbed in sympathy. Clouds scuttled across the sky as if trying to escape the creature. Wispy vapors fell away from its mouth: yellow, sulfurous, heavier than smoke. The creature stared at The Misery ,still speeding toward it, and I couldn’t fight off the ugly certainty that the dragon stared directly at me.

A crescendo of screaming sounded behind me, and someone shouted, “My god! It’s on top of the ship!” You can give credit to the dragon that I didn’t look. The dragon had me. You cannot turn away from such a creature. It will either vanish or it will destroy you.

Teraeth must’ve looked away though, and Juval must’ve thought he had an opening. I really don’t know what the Captain was thinking.

I guess he was acting from blind panic.

I heard a scuffle, a grunting noise, the slick scrape of metal. A second later, I heard the unmistakable, unforgettable sound of blood gurgling from a ripped throat.

“Idiot,” Teraeth muttered.

Then the lady fair walked over
The carnage of bloody fears
Red, yellow, violet, and indigo
She said, None of you I’ll have!
My love you do betray
Red, yellow, violet, and indigo…

The dragon’s keening changed in pitch. I felt the dragon’s song against the surface of my skin, the echo in my eardrums, the vibration in my bones. It was a physical shock, a tangible ecstasy.

He was singing. The dragon was singing with me.

Then she flew up to the sky
And she’s there to this day
Red, yellow, violet, and indigo…

Behind me, more shouts, more screams. The kraken scattered men on the deck as she tried to rip open the hold. There was a loud cracking sound, like a giant snapping trees for firewood.

And on a clear night you can
Still see her veils wave—

“Thaena!” Teraeth screamed. He tackled me as the mast fell right across where I’d been standing.

And, since I’ve never mastered the trick of singing with the wind knocked out of me, I stopped.

The dragon didn’t like that at all.

He launched himself into air, screaming with ear-shattering rage, gigantic wings spread wide against the glaring sun. That titanic creature crossed the distance to the ship in less than three seconds. I’d underestimated his size. He might’ve fit in the Great Arena in the Capital City, but only if he tucked himself up and rolled into a ball like a house cat.

The Old Man glided over us, his shadow a silken cloak sweeping over the ship. He smelled of sulfur and ash, the hot stench of the furnace and melting iron. As he passed, he idly reached out with a talon and plucked up the kraken still clinging to the deck. Great chunks of wood went with her. The dragon tossed the Daughter of Laaka into the air like a ball of string and breathed glowing hot ash at her.

I’m sure you’ve heard stories of dragons breathing fire, but believe me when I say what this one did was worse. That was not fire as you find in a kitchen or forge, not the sort of fire that happens when you rub two sticks together, or even the magic flame sorcerers conjure. This was all the ashes of a furnace, of a thousand furnaces, heated to iron melting white-hot strength, and blasted out at typhoon velocity. The heat melted, the ash scoured, and the glowing cloud left no air to breathe.

That meter...

Bonaventure
Jun 23, 2005

by sebmojo
"That?" Z'grug waved his hand like a professional waver who was waving at someone, but he waved so disdainfully that had he in fact been a professional waver at persons, he would have gotten a talking-to from his boss for showing such a bad attitude.1 "That's a herd of Grumguzzers. Furry lumps of poo poo--no, lovely gently caress-whores. Nothing impressive, or anything. Nothing in nature is impressive. Nothing in the world is impressive. You think I do magic because I'm a wizard? Magic is actually indistinguishable from science, as the poet says, and very rational. It's actually boring and normal. Like everything else in this gently caress-whore world." So saying, Z'grug swallowed exactly a pint of Crisprale, and wiped his mouth, and smiled. K'ruth couldn't hide his erection.

1. Leave it at the door, folks!

A human heart
Oct 10, 2012

Sham bam bamina! posted:

It's very telling that Kirkus reviews for real books are actual reviews while genre fiction gets a basic summary and some regurgitated copy from the publisher.

I don't know what their current reviews are like really but a lot of their older reviews were pretty dismissive of formally experimental or innovative books. lots of cliches like 'pretentious' and 'self indulgent' and that sort of thing.

lofi
Apr 2, 2018




Does anyone else just kinda reflexively skip over lyrics in books? I think Tolkein might have instilled that in me.

hackbunny
Jul 22, 2007

I haven't been on SA for years but the person who gave me my previous av as a joke felt guilty for doing so and decided to get me a non-shitty av

my bony fealty posted:

The prequel movies followed the by then decades-long exercise of adding useless backstory to the Star Wars universe, it was just giving fans what they wanted (garbage)

The Star Wars EU was painfully but beautifully naive. They had three movies worth of material to work from, and they wrought them for every drop of content and meaning they could. Every other character had to be force-sensitive, every opponent to the Jedi had an anti-lightsaber weapon of some kind, there were enough clones of the Emperor for a soccer team, scenes from the movies were overloaded with unseen events and meanings. They could never escape the playset, and boredom and the endless thirst for novelty ended up twisting the source material into ridiculous shapes



I don't have a lot to say about it, it's all an excuse to link to Attack of the Super Wizards which goes after the same playset vibe by remixing Fletcher Hanks' poorly conceived characters

Sham bam bamina!
Nov 6, 2012

ƨtupid cat

A human heart posted:

I don't know what their current reviews are like really but a lot of their older reviews were pretty dismissive of formally experimental or innovative books. lots of cliches like 'pretentious' and 'self indulgent' and that sort of thing.
I will take a bad opinion over naked marketing.

lofi
Apr 2, 2018




hackbunny posted:

The Star Wars EU was painfully but beautifully naive. They had three movies worth of material to work from, and they wrought them for every drop of content and meaning they could. Every other character had to be force-sensitive, every opponent to the Jedi had an anti-lightsaber weapon of some kind, there were enough clones of the Emperor for a soccer team, scenes from the movies were overloaded with unseen events and meanings. They could never escape the playset, and boredom and the endless thirst for novelty ended up twisting the source material into ridiculous shapes



I don't have a lot to say about it, it's all an excuse to link to Attack of the Super Wizards which goes after the same playset vibe by remixing Fletcher Hanks' poorly conceived characters

Wookiepedia has such mythical creatures as the 'breast'.

Doctor Faustine
Sep 2, 2018

lofi posted:

Does anyone else just kinda reflexively skip over lyrics in books? I think Tolkein might have instilled that in me.

Song lyrics or poetry in books get a hard fuckin pass from me, unless the author is actually also a good poet.

Even most good prose writers aren’t good poets, and when you consider most fantasy writers aren’t even good prose writers...

Nerdburger_Jansen
Jan 1, 2019

porfiria posted:

The following sentence isn't any better. The word "form" gets repeated (again we're really abusing the limits of where this style of writing can get us), and the last clause is genuinely awful; "became" is a disaster.

It needs a more mechanical edit – "shape" her body into forms "crafted of..." is a bizarre redundancy.

"they too became her next meal..." is weird as well – "next" tends to anchor to the utterance time, so only one person can be her next meal.

quote:

This not a good simile. Try to work out the logistics of guarding a fish tank with a shark. A tank inside a larger tank?

And here the syntax is just off.

"That she was Khirin's jailer..." was like "leaving a shark..."

A full finite clause is compared with a gerund. It reads like the first clause is supposed to be a gerund too, or was meant to lead into something else, e.g. "That she was Khirin's jailer was (indicative of / ironic)..." or whatever.

porfiria
Dec 10, 2008

by Modern Video Games
Let's get this over with.

quote:

“You must be joking.” Kihrin raised his head and stared at her.

Talon picked at the mortar of the wall behind her with a wicked black nail. “I’m bored.”

“Knit something.” The young man stood up and walked over to the line of iron bars. “Or why don’t you make yourself useful and help me escape?”

Talon leaned forward. “Ah, my love, you know I can’t do that. But come now, it’s been so long since we’ve talked. We have all this catching up to do and ages before they’re ready for us. Tell me everything that’s happened to you. We’ll use it to pass the time—until your brother comes back to murder you.”

Again, note the banal stage direction: characters moving around vaguely defined spaces, shifting their weights, leaning in to make points. It's the kind of actorly business that might be significant if you were watching it on TV but is mostly empty filler on the page.

In Talon's stock characterization I can't help but be reminded of the languid-but-deadly femmes fatale who populate Joss Whedon's oeuvre, and unsurprisingly Jenni Lyons's Goodreads page namedrops the man himself. I cast no particular aspersions on someone for enjoying any particular art, but I think it's worth reflecting on, again, the primacy of TV here.

And, to beat the drum one last time, note the tantalizing and rather vague references to Talon and Khirin's shared history: a good device for getting the reader to tune in next week!

quote:

“No.”

He searched for somewhere to rest his gaze, but the walls were blank, with no windows, no distractions. The room’s only illumination shone from a mage-light lamp hanging outside the cell. Kihrin couldn’t use it to start a fire. He would have loved to set the straw bedding ablaze—if they’d given him any.

"He searched for somewhere to rest his gaze..." Um, excuse me?

Describing the viewpoint character looking at something rather than just describing the something strikes me as a neophyte writer's tic. We understand the observation is being filtered through the character--it's the whole conceit of the form! Just get on with it!

The "mage-light lamp" is a classic example of what I've seen described as "ogre's blood" as in the proverbial description: "the grass was as green as ogre's blood." Since the reader has no idea what ogre's blood looks like, the comparison is rather meaningless. What is the relevance of the mage-light here? Is it brighter than a candle? A weird color? Is there something unsettling about the quality of its light? Who knows!

quote:

“Aren’t you bored too?” Talon asked.

Kihrin paused in his search for a hidden escape tunnel. “When they return, they’re going to sacrifice me to a demon. So, no. I’m not bored.” His gaze wandered once more around the room.

They're going to sacrifice me to a demon, I said, rolling my eyes and smirking. The wry, ironic take (the ghost of Whedon) is not totally without merit, but its a dangerous mode in which to operate for very long, and it feels pretty anachronistic to boot. Maybe if this book were a hilarious parody or send up would the protagonist breezily mentioning demon sacrifices be a reasonable feature. But this a five book long epic! We're going to be dodging demon sacrifices for the next 5000 pages so maybe a little dramatic tension on page 1, please.

Anyway, 5/5.

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'
First-person tense is such a goddamn crutch in bad fantasy writing.

Nerdburger_Jansen
Jan 1, 2019

my bony fealty posted:

are there really loving footnotes

look I have a high tolerance for bad writing and love lots of fantasy books but this is beyond the pale. burn the entire fantasy publishing industry to the ground. take hard sci fi with it.

There's a storyteller's pretense that the whole thing is a narrative account by a historian on commission, who is including the footnotes for his superior's benefit.

I don't mind these metafictional framings as a narrative device, and where they call for footnotes, that could be a solid literary mechanism in its own right. But the book itself simply doesn't read like a historical document in the first place, so they're nonsensical, and they're being used for exposition in the margins, which is even worse than exposition in the text.

Punished Chuck
Dec 27, 2010


[Gangnam styles 3 miles to the nearest Barnes and Noble’s to buy 8 copies]

Doctor Faustine
Sep 2, 2018
Can someone break it down for me why fae-analogues in contemporary fantasy almost always suck as compared to fairies in actual folklore, which are usually awesome? It’s something that bothers me a lot but I’ve never been quite able to articulate why.

Sham bam bamina!
Nov 6, 2012

ƨtupid cat

Milkfred E. Moore posted:

First-person tense is such a goddamn crutch in bad fantasy writing.
First person is a person, not a tense. That's why it's called first person.

The Hunger Games did a lot to popularize the present tense as a similar crutch, though.

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'

Sham bam bamina! posted:

First person is a person, not a tense. That's why it's called first person.

The Hunger Games did a lot to popularize the present tense as a similar crutch, though.

Ugh, yeah, missed a word there.

TheGreatEvilKing
Mar 28, 2016





Lyons posted:

The demon’s mouth drew close, and Kihrin closed his eyes rather than see what was about to happen. He tensed in expectation of his death.

There are some who would claim what came instead was more horrible. It was certainly more lingering.

He felt the demon’s tongue move against his face, touch his cheek, the necklace, the indigo stone. As the demon did this, thoughts flowed into Kihrin’s mind.

***I OFFER THIS TO THEE, MY KING: A SMALL TASTE OF HORROR TO WHET THY APPETITE FOR THE FEAST OF SUFFERING.***

The mental images grew more intense: Kihrin with his old teacher Mouse, with Morea, with any number of girls and boys from the Veil velvet house. Kihrin saw himself doing things to them—terrible, nonconsensual things. The demon showed Kihrin image after image of himself as a cruel, sadistic monster of a man, a demon clothed in human skin who delighted in the pain and terror of those around him. He fed on it the way crocodiles feed on anyone foolish enough to come too close in the river. The demon dove deep into Kihrin’s mind and pulled up the memories of everyone he’d ever known and loved, and then had Kihrin tear them apart—-or murder, torture, and rape them. Even in the Copper Quarter, even for a boy who had grown up in Velvet Town, sins still existed beyond his experience or comprehension. The demon emptied one atrocity after another into the boy’s head until he had seen them all.

I love the way the crocodile metaphor drags you out of the scene with an audible thunk. "Terrible, nonconsensual things" is also just awful.

my bony fealty
Oct 1, 2008

Doctor Faustine posted:

Can someone break it down for me why fae-analogues in contemporary fantasy almost always suck as compared to fairies in actual folklore, which are usually awesome? It’s something that bothers me a lot but I’ve never been quite able to articulate why.

probably just another symptom of being devoid of originality and recycling the same stale ideas that have infected fantasy for decades?

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'

TheGreatEvilKing posted:

I love the way the crocodile metaphor drags you out of the scene with an audible thunk. "Terrible, nonconsensual things" is also just awful.

That last line about the demon emptying atrocities into his head just makes me think of someone emptying half-full cups into a sink. So passionless.

Sham bam bamina!
Nov 6, 2012

ƨtupid cat
Bonfire of the Genres: Terrible, Nonconsensual Things

Sham bam bamina!
Nov 6, 2012

ƨtupid cat
Honestly surprised that the atrocities emptied into Kirin Ichiban's head aren't "problematic" atrocities.

Zoracle Zed
Jul 10, 2001
criticizing this book seems like shooting sixty-foot-long limbless blue elephants in a barrel

my bony fealty
Oct 1, 2008

chew on this one

quote:

This is a hard fantasy novel. That means that the magic system and world are intended to be rational and knowable.

Sham bam bamina!
Nov 6, 2012

ƨtupid cat

my bony fealty posted:

chew on this one

quote:

Current Status: Moving the ending of this book to the beginning of book 2 and writing a new ending for this book.

Sham bam bamina!
Nov 6, 2012

ƨtupid cat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_and_soft_magic_systems

my bony fealty
Oct 1, 2008

brain motherfucking worms

chernobyl kinsman
Mar 18, 2007

a friend of the friendly atom

Soiled Meat
i'll come back when this is over, as this book upsets me

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'

"The idea of hard magic and soft magic was created by Brandon Sanderson"

oh noooo

Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG


lofi posted:

Does anyone else just kinda reflexively skip over lyrics in books? I think Tolkein might have instilled that in me.

I could not scroll that poo poo fast enough.

I also skipped John Galt's speech.

Life is just too fuckin short

chernobyl kinsman
Mar 18, 2007

a friend of the friendly atom

Soiled Meat
tolkien's poems are good and if you don't like them then your soul lacks a particular capacity for joy or wonder

Bilirubin
Feb 16, 2014

The sanctioned action is to CHUG


You will not trick me into learning elvish chernobyl kinsman

Mel Mudkiper
Jan 19, 2012

At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.
Hey baby want some of my hard magic system

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010

TheGreatEvilKing posted:

I love the way the crocodile metaphor drags you out of the scene with an audible thunk. "Terrible, nonconsensual things" is also just awful.

Indigo stone? So its gonna turn out that his princely father gave him the necklace, and that the story of the brothers stealing the veils is how they came by magic. The stones will be pieces of some magical goober that got broken into pieces, and our hero will have to go collect them.

Everyone will be surprised by this, even though there's a loving tavern called the Shattered Veil.

TheGreatEvilKing
Mar 28, 2016





Strom Cuzewon posted:

Indigo stone? So its gonna turn out that his princely father gave him the necklace, and that the story of the brothers stealing the veils is how they came by magic. The stones will be pieces of some magical goober that got broken into pieces, and our hero will have to go collect them.

Everyone will be surprised by this, even though there's a loving tavern called the Shattered Veil.

It's dumber. Much dumber.

BravestOfTheLamps
Oct 12, 2012

by FactsAreUseless
Lipstick Apathy
It was a dialogue in five parts.

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Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

'It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.'

TheGreatEvilKing posted:

It's dumber. Much dumber.

well don't leave us hanging

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