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probably for the best, "we're not going to show you your offer until you prove what you used to make" is incredibly scummy and powertripping.
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Feb 13, 2019 16:12
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Yeah, what this says is that they weren't interested in hiring you unless they could get you for well under what you're worth, and even if you'd hired on you'd've been subject to a probably-toxic environment.
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Feb 13, 2019 16:16
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On the one hand, yeah, you dodged a bullet here. On the other, someone keeps shooting at all of us.
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Feb 13, 2019 16:17
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Yeah, it's worth keeping in mind that what they're asking for is illegal in a growing number of states and large municipalities
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Feb 13, 2019 16:18
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uncurable mlady posted:probably for the best, "we're not going to show you your offer until you prove what you used to make" is incredibly scummy and powertripping. Not emptyquoting
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Feb 13, 2019 16:23
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ultrafilter posted:On the other, someone keeps shooting at all of us. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwbzxemJZIc
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Feb 13, 2019 16:26
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I agree with y'all but I'm real salty this morning, like I lost to a cannon rush
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Feb 13, 2019 16:29
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Name and shame.
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Feb 13, 2019 16:30
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ratbert90 posted:Name and shame. SmileDirectClub
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Feb 13, 2019 16:33
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Even consulting companies with strict maximum $ / hr possible for a billable resource have given me better, more transparent offers than some secretive poker / shell game. You dodged a bullet there and I feel sorry for anyone to get suckered in.
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Feb 13, 2019 16:36
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Careful Drums posted:SmileDirectClub even a cursory google shows that these dudes got sued and are under fire from orthodontists for their business practices so yeah i think you dodged a bullet here dogg
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Feb 13, 2019 16:39
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uncurable mlady posted:even a cursory google shows that these dudes got sued and are under fire from orthodontists for their business practices so yeah i think you dodged a bullet here dogg I saw that but chalked it up to orthodontists mad that a new tech company was eating their lunch, and having had braces from a lovely ortho, gently caress em. This is a non-trivial part of why I was stoked for this spot. Oh well
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Feb 13, 2019 16:45
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Having had Invisalign through an actual orthodontist SmileDirectClub seems like a huge scam
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Feb 13, 2019 17:06
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I don’t understand why you wouldn’t give it to them. Like, absolutely don’t work for them, but you didn’t want to do that anyway. Show them a screenshot from Workday or w/e, get the offer, and use it for Seattle. If Seattle passes, tell Nashville exactly why they can get hosed.
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Feb 13, 2019 17:11
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Achmed Jones posted:I don’t understand why you wouldn’t give it to them. Like, absolutely don’t work for them, but you didn’t want to do that anyway. Show them a screenshot from Workday or w/e, get the offer, and use it for Seattle. If Seattle passes, tell Nashville exactly why they can get hosed. Well, I did / do want to work for them. I also wanted them not to lowball me, so I refused to give the info.
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Feb 13, 2019 17:17
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Never give your current comp to a prospective new employee. They want to know it so they can pay you as little as possible. By forcing them to name a number first, you make them guess at what you're being paid. Not only might they guess high, but they're not likely to guess at the top of what they're willing to pay you, so you can generally negotiate higher from there. Whereas if you tell them what you're paid, they can choose a number that's exactly high enough to tempt you, and you have no leverage to use to argue them higher. Also it's illegal in several states for employers to ask for your current compensation. https://www.hrdive.com/news/salary-history-ban-states-list/516662/
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Feb 13, 2019 17:39
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Careful Drums posted:I saw that but chalked it up to orthodontists mad that a new tech company was eating their lunch, and having had braces from a lovely ortho, gently caress em. This is a non-trivial part of why I was stoked for this spot. Oh well Orthodontist should be mad because DirectSmileClub claims it's treatment isn't a medical procedure and is endangering the health of people who use it by performing a medical procedure without proper observation. There are numerous issues that can crop up during orthodontics which can affect long term dental health that they wave away and then sue anyone that mentions them. If you get options or RSUs it is however a great way to make money. asur fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Feb 13, 2019 |
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Feb 13, 2019 17:40
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ugh it has been five hours now and i am still mad about this
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Feb 13, 2019 19:32
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Careful Drums posted:Well, I did / do want to work for them. I also wanted them not to lowball me, so I refused to give the info. You already gave them that information verbally. Providing proof doesn’t enable a lowball any more than providing salary information with your mouth. Of course if they didn’t give you a chance to back down from the initial refusal, then gently caress ‘em because the first answer to that request is definitely “lol what, no, pay for a background check that includes that info if you want”
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Feb 13, 2019 19:56
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Achmed Jones posted:You already gave them that information verbally. Providing proof doesn’t enable a lowball any more than providing salary information with your mouth. Yeah, if they said "hand it over or no deal" I'd have done so, just to see, knowing it would suck. But they shut down quickly.
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Feb 13, 2019 20:03
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Conversations on comp should be starting fairly early with “here’s the range we expected and variable comp of X, Y, Z depending upon your interview performance and any competing offer including your current compensation. Does that work for you?” More than half my recruiter calls these days stop quickly after that line and everyone’s better for it.
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Feb 13, 2019 20:37
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necrobobsledder posted:Conversations on comp should be starting fairly early with “here’s the range we expected and variable comp of X, Y, Z depending upon your interview performance and any competing offer including your current compensation. Does that work for you?” More than half my recruiter calls these days stop quickly after that line and everyone’s better for it.
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Feb 13, 2019 20:49
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I do it a more subtle way that gets them to reveal the top range and I like to go a bit under for their comfort or to negotiate for a comp review if they’re apprehensive about my performance. I usually go something like “the Glassdoor estimate says X - Y base. Is that accurate?” and things go from there. I’m an old so I’m aware of the real market ranges so that doesn’t hurt either.
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Feb 13, 2019 21:10
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necrobobsledder posted:I usually go something like “the Glassdoor estimate says X - Y base. Is that accurate?” This is still you naming a number first, which anchors your expectations to that range. They can then happily say "oh yeah we pay Y" when, if you'd made them name a number first, they might've said Y * 1.25 instead.
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Feb 13, 2019 21:14
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fourwood posted:Whaaaaat, who is this upfront about comp?! Is this normal? This doesn’t feel normal. I had some luck responding to "What is your current salary?" with "I'd rather not say but is there a salary band for this position?".
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Feb 13, 2019 21:22
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I live in a state where it’s illegal to ask my salary and illegal not to provide the salary band. People - who are in-state - still ask my salary and refuse to provide the band, they just prefix asking with “I’m not allowed to ask your salary but...” and pretend I didn’t ask for the band (or say that it’s super variable and then pretend I didn’t ask when I ask what it varies between). But, like, I wasn’t gonna not-cave while talking to bigtech recruiters :-/ Interviewing and recruiting is garbage Also: sorry for my misunderstanding, Careful Drums!
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Feb 13, 2019 22:17
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:This is still you naming a number first, which anchors your expectations to that range. They can then happily say "oh yeah we pay Y" when, if you'd made them name a number first, they might've said Y * 1.25 instead.
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Feb 13, 2019 22:38
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Achmed Jones posted:I live in a state where it’s illegal to ask my salary and illegal not to provide the salary band. No worries bud 
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Feb 13, 2019 23:05
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Munkeymon posted:I had some luck responding to "What is your current salary?" with "I'd rather not say but is there a salary band for this position?".
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Feb 13, 2019 23:10
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JawnV6 posted:I was unemployed during my last couple searches and it's real fun to say "Zero. My current salary is Zero." and pivot it to talk about needing Interesting Work. But now I live in a Good state with legal mandates and whatnot. Just realized that what they were mostly asking is "What are your salary expectations?" which I'm guessing skirts the letter of those laws. Anyway, yeah, changing the subject instead of answering the question is the way to go.
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Feb 14, 2019 15:22
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A long while back I read an actually really good little article on LinkedIn about avoiding that whole question and it worked wonders for me with recruiters in the States. They end up saying 'What do you make?' or equivalent. And you say 'I'm looking for compensation at $(whatever)' In a quick case it can sound like you've answered their question. And under any pressure you just repeat your answer. That's your number and they can speak to it. If they come back and say 'ok well, we can do 5% under it' well, then you've got a choice and I hope you've chosen a number that reflects a reasonable pay bump. In a really really rare case a recruiter will go 'well I think I can get you more than that, but it's good to know a floor.' Broadly speaking we're valuable people with a valuable and important skillset. Acting like we're at the mercy of employers only harms the collective group in the long run.
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Feb 14, 2019 15:23
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the fact that programmers are having conversations like this probably explains why they didn't ask me what I made, they wanted proof. Turning them down just showed I was serious and wouldn't be pushed around. gently caress those guys e: just realized they still owe me $70 in travel reimbursmetns. I wonder if I'll ever see that money. Careful Drums fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Feb 14, 2019 |
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Feb 14, 2019 15:52
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Careful Drums posted:e: just realized they still owe me $70 in travel reimbursmetns. I wonder if I'll ever see that money. Write it off and if you do get it back, treat it as lottery winnings.
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Feb 14, 2019 16:09
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Careful Drums posted:the fact that programmers are having conversations like this probably explains why they didn't ask me what I made, they wanted proof. Turning them down just showed I was serious and wouldn't be pushed around. I have a theory about this that boils down to the combination of an unregulated profession and 'how hard could it be?' output. The first half being is that compared to other significantly paid professions, there's no standard central board handing out programming licenses. The second being that when you look at twitter as a suit and go 'wait, why do I need to pay all of my programmers that much money, it seems so SIMPLE, I bet my teenager could do it in a weekend, they're probably just inflating their rates!' So you end up with the purse strings being handled by people who don't really understand what's going on, and who have probably been burnt by folks demanding high wages but outputting garbage. This leads to a natural drive towards lowballing offers.
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Feb 14, 2019 16:17
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Cuntpunch posted:A long while back I read an actually really good little article on LinkedIn about avoiding that whole question and it worked wonders for me with recruiters in the States. This is still you anchoring the conversation at that $(whatever) value. The company will then always argue down from that, and you have no leverage to argue up. Whereas if you can get the company to name a number first, then you can argue up from there and they can't really argue down. This is why companies are so insistent that you name a number first. They don't care if that number is your current comp or just what you think you're worth. They want you to name it. Because if they have to make an offer blindly, there's a chance they'll be paying you a lot more than you'd otherwise be asking for.
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Feb 14, 2019 16:35
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Say "competitive"
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Feb 14, 2019 16:39
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:This is still you anchoring the conversation at that $(whatever) value. The company will then always argue down from that, and you have no leverage to argue up. Whereas if you can get the company to name a number first, then you can argue up from there and they can't really argue down. Part of that comes out of a pragmatism though. If you understand they're loving with you, then gently caress with them. Play the logic: Let's say you're making 100. You can maybe expect on a good year that to go to 105 if you stay put. But you're talking about other opportunities and someone asks. If you're keen on the position, say 120, what can it hurt. Maybe they talk you down to 115 or 110, that's still better than staying put. If you figure it's grunt work, say 130, what's the worst they can do? Not offer you the job? Oh well. There's a weird psychology in this industry about 'people who charge a lot are worth a lot' even without any other evidence on hand.
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Feb 14, 2019 16:57
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Cuntpunch posted:Part of that comes out of a pragmatism though. If you understand they're loving with you, then gently caress with them. Play the logic: If you're going to gently caress with them at least give a number that's not realistic or on the upper end. Giving a number that is less than 20% over your current is just begging to be under payed.
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Feb 14, 2019 17:52
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Someone on here recommended the book Negotiating your salary: How to make $1000 a minute and I highly recommend it too. The book's a bit old, but the advice is still very good and it's a short read.
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Feb 14, 2019 18:08
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asur posted:If you're going to gently caress with them at least give a number that's not realistic or on the upper end. Giving a number that is less than 20% over your current is just begging to be under payed. IME they're much more likely to reveal that you've gone above the salary band they totally have but weren't admitting to a minute ago.
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Feb 14, 2019 18:14
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