|
Randarkman posted:The 80s are over. Also nice fanfic about the opposition (made up of a myriad different parties) wanting to privatize everything, yes I know there's a party program for Guaido's party wanting to reduce goverment ownership in the economy (remember the context of Venezuela and how many unnecessary and poorly managed nationalizations have been carried out) and espousing public-private ventures. But I don't really see how that equates to wanting to privatize everything except in your stupid fanfic where you have to imagine that the alternative to an incompetent, malicious, nominally socialist, anti-american regime has to be worse, simply because. So the millions of people opposed to them, making up a majority of the country should just loving give up and meekly submit because you inhabit such a black-and-white simplistic intellectual universe that you can't even imagine other outcomes to this crisis. i have terrible news for you about the guys we had doing this stuff in the 80s, and the guy we've assigned to Venezuela now but hey, maybe it's just my simplistic intellectual universe, that says "more El Mozotes would be bad."
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 16:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 18:30 |
|
|
zapplez posted:I don't know if I would have called Dennis Rodman a paid asset of NK when he was being hosted there in hotels for free, but to say Blumenthal isn't without insane bias (and would also put himself at risk, if he started being critical of the government while staying at a hotel for government supporting journalists) is crazy/ Fellow chemical weapons truther and garbage journalist Billy Six has been in jail since SEBIN arrested him in November, the risk is not theoretical.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 16:59
|
|
|
Instant Sunrise posted:My cold take on Venezuela is this: Let's just ignore that the opposition also has the backing of nearly every other regional government?
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 17:00
|
|
|
Saladman posted:Let's just ignore that the opposition also has the backing of nearly every other regional government? I mean people ignore and outright get 100% racist about the governments supporting Venezuela by calling the pro-coup ones 'civilized' and poo poo
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 17:02
|
|
|
Saladman posted:Let's just ignore that the opposition also has the backing of nearly every other regional government? saying "look, Bolsonaro's onboard!" as a way to try to defray concerns this is going to turn into a bloodbath is one hell of a piece of spin
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 17:02
|
|
|
Saladman posted:Let's just ignore that the opposition also has the backing of nearly every other regional government? Ah yes, the support of Jair Bolsonaro, a... *checks notes* Fascist.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 17:05
|
|
|
also if we're talking about 'nearly every other regional government' isn't Mexico still in the camp of 'we're not taking a side but we still recognize the current government until that formally changes'? They're one of the most hit with people leaving Venezuela.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 17:07
|
|
|
Instant Sunrise posted:Ah yes, the support of Jair Bolsonaro, a... *checks notes* Fascist. Yes please continue to cherrypick. Ecuador, Peru, and Costa Rica are also on the side of Guaido. If you can get all of these 5 countries (plus a bunch of others) working together against you, then you've done hosed up. If Vizcarra is a fascist to you, then you're out of reality.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 17:25
|
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:i have terrible news for you about the guys we had doing this stuff in the 80s, and the guy we've assigned to Venezuela now "Noun. Verb. Elliot Abrams!"
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 17:36
|
|
|
“I believe demolishing Hussein’s military power and liberating Iraq would be a cakewalk.” - Kenneth Adelman, member of the Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board, 2/13/02 “Support for Saddam, including within his military organization, will collapse after the first whiff of gunpowder.” - Richard Perle, Chairman of the Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board, 7/11/02 “Desert Storm II would be in a walk in the park... The case for ‘regime change’ boils down to the huge benefits and modest costs of liberating Iraq.” - Kenneth Adelman, member of the Pentagon’s Defense Policy Board, 8/29/02 “Having defeated and then occupied Iraq, democratizing the country should not be too tall an order for the world’s sole superpower.” - William Kristol, Weekly Standard editor, and Lawrence F. Kaplan, New Republic senior editor, 2/24/03 “The idea that it would take several hundred thousand U.S. forces, I think, is far from the mark.” - Donald H. Rumsfeld, U.S. Secretary of Defense, 2/27/03 “I am reasonably certain that they will greet us as liberators, and that will help us keep [troop] requirements down. ... We can say with reasonable confidence that the notion of hundreds of thousands of American troops is way off the mark...wildly off the mark.” - Paul Wolfowitz, U.S. Deputy Secretary of Defense, testifying before the House Budget Committee, 2/27/03 “The idea that it’s going to be a long, long, long battle of some kind I think is belied by the fact of what happened in 1990. Five days or five weeks or five months, but it certainly isn’t going to last any longer than that.” - Donald H. Rumsfeld, U.S. Secretary of Defense, 11/15/02 “I will bet you the best dinner in the gaslight district of San Diego that military action will not last more than a week. Are you willing to take that wager?” - Bill O’Reilly, 1/29/03 “It is unknowable how long that conflict will last. It could be six days, six weeks. I doubt six months.” - Donald H. Rumsfeld, U.S. Secretary of Defense, 2/7/03 “It won’t take weeks... Our military machine will crush Iraq in a matter of days and there’s no question that it will.” - Bill O’Reilly, 2/10/03 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 17:37
|
|
|
I haven't had a lot of time to really dig into who/what "therealnews.com" is, but it has an interesting interview with Kim Ives a writer for Haiti Liberté regarding the Haiti protests and potentially what effect the situation in Venezuela is having. (if this isn't worth posting in here let me know) https://therealnews.com/stories/how-haitis-spontaneous-uprising-is-connected-to-venezuelan-solidarity-1-2 Theres unfortunately not too much in that interview (part 1/2) but I'm extremely curious what they have to say after setting up all the background info. For wider reporting on the Haiti protests https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/feb/14/haiti-disarray-anti-government-protests-prison-breakout https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/haiti/article225070430.html I'm also curious on the impact regarding Haiti signing on in support of Guaido with most of the rest of the Caricom considering the current unrest due to (perceived?) corruption in their current government. (I'd also like to point out Guyana still hasn't signed, I should reach out to my family there for some anecdotal comments about the Venezuela situation)
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 17:52
|
|
|
Rust Martialis posted:"Noun. Verb. *bits of smashed baby skulls*"
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 17:53
|
|
|
A Special Message From Senor Lowtax Sorry, Jose is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 17:54
|
|
|
i have to say I'm impressed with the best defense for Special Envoy To Venezuela Elliot Abrams anyone's come up with being "jeez, for some reason you keep bringing up the genocidal war criminal in charge of enforcing the US' will on Venezuela through the opposition" it's people think the opposition taking marching orders from this guy would be bad, or something
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 17:58
|
|
|
e: whoops wrong thread
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 17:58
|
|
|
Rust Martialis posted:"Noun. Verb. Elliot Abrams!" bold tactic to pick a good argument and mock it like it's a bad one Ruzihm fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Feb 15, 2019 |
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 18:05
|
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:i have to say I'm impressed with the best defense for Special Envoy To Venezuela Elliot Abrams anyone's come up with being nobody thinks he's good. the best i've seen is a vague hope he won't screw things up worse than maduro has. i think that's foolish and doomed, but everyone has seen your last 25 posts where all you have to say is "abrams is bad". i would ask what your suggest plan of action was for venezuelans to use the knowledge that abrams was bad, but it was to stick it out with maduro until the US stops taking an interest in venezuelan politics.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 18:09
|
|
|
a good start would be the rank and file of the opposition purging anyone who vocally supports working with Abrams
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 18:11
|
|
|
"It's not the 80's any more"' would be a good rebuttal if we didn't literally have the 80's Ghoul Squad running the show, and you can't actually just handwave that away
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 18:13
|
|
|
Cerepol posted:I haven't had a lot of time to really dig into who/what "therealnews.com" is, but it has an interesting interview with Kim Ives a writer for Haiti Liberté regarding the Haiti protests and potentially what effect the situation in Venezuela is having. (if this isn't worth posting in here let me know) The second part is here: https://therealnews.com/stories/how-haitis-spontaneous-uprising-is-connected-to-venezuelan-solidarity-2-2 literally all it says is 'Well Chavez set up the Petrocaibo program out of a sense of solidarity' in far too many words, I feel cheated.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 18:13
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/AP/status/1096443590635646976
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 18:18
|
|
|
Ruzihm posted:a good start would be the rank and file of the opposition purging anyone who vocally supports working with Abrams who in venezuela is vocally supportive of abrams, and why? it matters if you're going to argue that people need to ditch US support or get out of the opposition coalition.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 18:23
|
|
|
"Military aircraft"is kind of broad. I doubt theyre doing terror flybys with f22s in downtown caracas.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 18:25
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:"Military aircraft"is kind of broad. I doubt theyre doing terror flybys with f22s in downtown caracas. it means camo painted hercules instead of grey ones
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 18:28
|
|
|
sexpig by night posted:"It's not the 80's any more"' would be a good rebuttal if we didn't literally have the 80's Ghoul Squad running the show, and you can't actually just handwave that away (guillo)'tine ghoul squad imo
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 18:30
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:"Military aircraft"is kind of broad. I doubt theyre doing terror flybys with f22s in downtown caracas. military cargo planes can transport military cargo as well as food aid
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 18:47
|
|
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:The second part is here: https://therealnews.com/stories/how-haitis-spontaneous-uprising-is-connected-to-venezuelan-solidarity-2-2 Oops I feel dumb having missed that. That's unfortunate, there really isn't much in there. It does give a bit of background re Haiti tho.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 18:53
|
|
|
Randarkman posted:The 80s are over. Neither Trump nor Bolton seem to have gotten the memo. So far they look like they're pursuing a very 80's Latin America policy.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 19:29
|
|
|
250 tons of industrial strength fertilizer delivered directly to Maduro's office.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 20:11
|
|
|
Ruzihm posted:a good start would be the rank and file of the opposition purging anyone who vocally supports working with Abrams Nothing better than a good preemptive internal purge and factional infighting to preemptively split the opposition to make sure that your hero Maduro gets to keep making GBS threads on Venezuela forever. Stop trying to pretend that you give a gently caress about Venezuela - You tankies would support Pol Pot or Idi Amin to the end as long as they said the right America Bad buzzwords.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 20:33
|
|
|
predicto posted:Nothing better than a good preemptive internal purge and factional infighting to preemptively split the opposition to make sure that your hero Maduro gets to keep making GBS threads on Venezuela forever. its not premptively splitting the opposition if/when one faction moves to collaborate with a war criminal. that would be reactively splitting. predicto posted:Stop trying to pretend that you give a gently caress about Venezuela - You liberals would support Pol Pot or Idi Amin to the end as long as they said the right Maduro Bad buzzwords. wow that was easy. i guess straw is a pretty easy medium to work with huh Ruzihm fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Feb 15, 2019 |
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 20:38
|
|
|
predicto posted:Nothing better than a good preemptive internal purge and factional infighting to preemptively split the opposition to make sure that your hero Maduro gets to keep making GBS threads on Venezuela forever. Stop trying to pretend that you give a gently caress about Venezuela - You tankies would support Pol Pot or Idi Amin to the end as long as they said the right America Bad buzzwords. Anybody who vocally supports working with Abrams is probably going to want to turn Venezuela into something even worse than it is now. e: Also you don't have to be a tankie to see that U.S. policy towards Venezuela is going in a very bad direction for Venezuelans. Majorian fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Feb 15, 2019 |
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 20:43
|
|
|
Majorian posted:Neither Trump nor Bolton seem to have gotten the memo. So far they look like they're pursuing a very 80's Latin America policy. Everyone said the same poo poo about war being started with Iran because of things Mike Flynn said before John Bolton took over his position. years ago. And yet, the US if anything is reducing its presence in the Middle East under Trump, and the most hostile action taken toward Iran was withdrawing from the JCPOA. People being appointed to positions, and tweets, don't mean poo poo. You need a little bit more of a concrete platform than that to completely oppose the Venezuelan opposition and push for Maduro to be held unaccountable over fears of what holding him accountable would look like.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 20:58
|
|
|
I'm really dumb, but I thought a tankie was someone who forgave the sins of a socialist / communist war criminal because they are part of the One True Party. Aren't you the one defending the war criminal here?
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 21:00
|
|
|
Ruzihm posted:
I'm learning from the best - the tankies on this thread who endlessly characterise any opposition to Maduro as overt support of hypthetical fascist death squads that will crush baby skulls with sledgehammers, and as desire for the US to invade and steal all the oil, and as deep support for Trump and Abrams and Bolsinaro, and as racism against indigneous peoples, and every other stupid loving tankie hot take.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 21:00
|
|
|
Do you know who Elliot Abrams is? Here is a fun podcast going over some of his really cool achievements. https://soundcloud.com/chapo-trap-house/unlocked-287-killy-elliott-feat-jon-schwarz-2719
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 21:01
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:And yet, the US if anything is reducing its presence in the Middle East under Trump Finally D&D is ready to admit that Trump is a good(great) president. MAGA!
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 21:08
|
|
|
Majorian posted:Anybody who vocally supports working with Abrams is probably going to want to turn Venezuela into something even worse than it is now. Current US policy sucks and the US history of loving up the region for our own interests is utterly indefensible. Trump sucks. Bolton sucks. Abrams sucks. It goes without saying that anything they do will be hamfisted at best and evil at worst. Unfortunately, the people of Venezuela can't do anything about that right now. The best they can do is try to excise the malignant cancer of this Maduro regime, the one that absolutely is starving and killing them directly right now, while doing their best to resist a new possible different kind of infection that might be bad in the future. The people of Venezuela should not have to suffer so that tankies can remain pure in their opposition to anything an American administration ever suggests support for. edit: and of course I know that this is just a dying message board and all we are doing is exchanging pixels and its all meaningless really
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 21:10
|
|
|
Turtlicious posted:I'm really dumb, but I thought a tankie was someone who forgave the sins of a socialist / communist war criminal because they are part of the One True Party. The definition has changed a bit since socialism/communism has taken a backseat to anti-Americanism when it comes to the tankie platform. Now tankies are defined by opposing whatever they imagine to be US aims, in the same way that Reagan used to oppose whatever he imagined to be the Communists aims. There are no people in this equation, simply the US, and its opponents. The bad guys and the good guys. So now it isn't merely whitewashing Communist war criminals, but also hard right fascists, so long as those fascists try to present themselves as being unfairly targeted by America. But most of the countries on the US shitlist are dictatorships, and only a few of its allies qualify, and those countries, like Saudi Arabia, have not been hit with the types of revolts that happened in Syria. So for the last decade or so, tankies have instinctively responded to every popular revolt in the lands of any dictator with disdain. They have actively opposed movements for freedom wherever they show their face, to own the US, and the protesters caught in the middle aren't any more important to them than Latin American citizens were to Reagan when he was President. They aspire to be a throwback to the worst of the cold war while justifying it because of how bad the cold war was.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 21:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 18:30 |
|
|
predicto posted:Unfortunately, the people of Venezuela can't do anything about that right now. The best they can do is try to excise the malignant cancer of this Maduro regime, the one that absolutely is starving and killing them directly right now, while doing their best to resist a new possible different kind of infection that might be bad in the future. That's where the problem with your argument is, though - the people who want Abrams involved are not doing their best to resist a new possible different kind of infection that will absolutely be bad in the future.
|
|
#
?
Feb 15, 2019 21:16
|
|