Star Wars: 4000 posts later we are no closer to consensus

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > Cinema Discusso > Star Wars: 4000 posts later we are no closer to consensus

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Winifred Madgers: Feb 12, 2002

Cease to Hope posted:

I mean, the process that led to that racist imagery and the intent of the creator are also a problem on their own. Lucas told Silas Carson to impersonate an East Asian accent.

Thought experiment: if instead the actor reading Gunray's dialogue were a native Thai who did not speak English, and was told to imitate English dialogue phonetically, and the performance turned out audibly identical to what's in the actual film... would that still be racist?

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:01

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 12:02

ruddiger: Jun 3, 2004

Ray Park's voice was dubbed over with a British accent as well, all this British face going on in Star Wars, Lucas' secret message was right there under our noses the entire time.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:05

Cease to Hope: Dec 12, 2011

ruddiger posted:

George Lucas made Carrie Fisher put on British face when she did that terrible accent in A New Hope, that sick racist bastard.

gently caress off with this

Son of Sam-I-Am posted:

Thought experiment: if instead the actor reading Gunray's dialogue were a native Thai who did not speak English, and was told to imitate English dialogue phonetically, and the performance turned out audibly identical to what's in the actual film... would that still be racist?

It moots part of the problem - casting Silas Carson to do an impersonation - but only that part. It would be distractingly similar to a long tradition of racist caricature, something which George Lucas should have been aware of given the whole Flash Gordon thing. It was distracting for me before I knew who Silas Carson was.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:06

brawleh: Feb 25, 2011; I figured out why the hippo did it.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

A viewer cannot select how to view the film, only the toolkit they use through which to analyze their own viewing. A viewer choosing to view a film through an antiracist lens is creating an interpretation of the film, but not an ultimate nor total one. The choice to selectively perceive content doesn't de-legitimize other contextual observations

You are suggesting a viewer examining the film through a lens that acknowledges the tendency to racist caricature in the film should adopt a more gracious interpretation of the material, which I feel is an unreasonable expectation of the viewer.

Right, working through the text is key, but this isn�t what Cease to Hope was doing. Instead there�s was a hyper fixation upon a singular element where a character became an other to them.

The portrayal of the Republic in the prequels is of a multicultural liberal-democratic society bound together in a galactic market. That english is the language of the Republic and galactic trade traces elements of its history of colonisation along with the further context provided in the portrayal of Naboo.

Fixation upon aspects of the text in abstract isolation is what�s being challenged, because in Cease to Hope�s own words they stopped engaging with the text upon hearing the accent.

Like, another example of this was the guy from a while back who was confused about the portrayal of droids as people who are slaves and obi-wan�s �if droids could think� line. Specifically that this was a contradiction of the movie, a failure of the text in its portrayal of droids as people and not something that informs characterisation of Obi-wan, the Jedi, the Republic and so on.

brawleh fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Feb 18, 2019

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:07

SuperMechagodzilla: Jun 9, 2007; NEWT REBORN

Mel Mudkiper posted:

A viewer cannot select how to view the film, only the toolkit they use through which to analyze their own viewing. A viewer choosing to view a film through an antiracist lens is creating an interpretation of the film, but not an ultimate nor total one. The choice to selectively perceive content doesn't de-legitimize other contextual observations

You are suggesting a viewer examining the film through a lens that acknowledges the tendency to racist caricature in the film should adopt a more gracious interpretation of the material, which I feel is an unreasonable expectation of the viewer.

Think about this for a second: you are straight-up saying that anti-racism and racism are equally valid. In fact, anti-racism is worse - weak and �unreasonable� - because it doesn�t defer to presumed majority of racist viewers.

Again, you are missing the dimension of truth. Inequality is always bad, no matter how many people say otherwise.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:09

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

ruddiger posted:

Ray Park's voice was dubbed over with a British accent as well, all this British face going on in Star Wars, Lucas' secret message was right there under our noses the entire time.

You do realize power is an essential element of what makes -face a problem right?

You're making the same tedious "I am not racist, I make fun of everyone" argument

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:11

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Think about this for a second: you are straight-up saying that anti-racism and racism are equally valid. In fact, anti-racism is worse - weak and “unreasonable” - because it doesn’t defer to presumed majority of racist viewers.

I am saying that the significance of a film is ultimately through the subjective lens of the viewer, but that the viewer is likely to finder a stronger suggestion of racist themes than non racist ones as this one borrows heavily from racist imagery and tropes.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:16

Mia Wasikowska: Oct 7, 2006

smg i like your whole redemptive interpretation thing. is that something you developed or is it from some critical tradition?

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:16

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Am I right to think that SMG is arguing that one has a moral obligation to interpret the film in the way which does the much social good?

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:19

Cease to Hope: Dec 12, 2011

brawleh posted:

Right, working through the text is key, but this isn�t what Cease to Hope was doing. Instead there�s was a hyper fixation upon a singular element where a character became an other to them

This is such a distant, sterile description of my argument. You've divorced yourself entirely from the films existing in this real world, and having a place in the history of the real world.

It isn't simply that the Neiomoidians are otherized. (They also have giant rubber heads, which I don't find objectionable.) It's the particular manner in which they are otherized, and how that manner fits in with film's long history of otherizing actual people.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:21

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

I think it's important tor ealize how hosed up media depictions of people are. We've come to the point where an alien speaking in an accent that doesn't exist in real-life but was created by mixing romanian and thai accents causes the same reactions in people as full-on yellow face.

That feeling is real and important: we've so thoroughfully dehumanized and othered people that simple accents are enough to get the same reaction.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:22

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

MonsieurChoc posted:

I think it's important tor ealize how hosed up media depictions of people are. We've come to the point where an alien speaking in an accent that doesn't exist in real-life but was created by mixing romanian and thai accents causes the same reactions in people as full-on yellow face.

That feeling is real and important: we've so thoroughfully dehumanized and othered people that simple accents are enough to get the same reaction.

Accents are fundamentally otherizing by definition

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:24

Cease to Hope: Dec 12, 2011

MonsieurChoc posted:

We've come to the point where an alien speaking in an accent that doesn't exist in real-life but was created by mixing romanian and thai accents

Where exactly did you get this idea that Romanian has anything to do with the Neimoidians?

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:25

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Cease to Hope posted:

Where exactly did you get this idea that Romanian has anything to do with the Neimoidians?

It's in the article you keep bringing up. They made a game of telephone where the original was speaking a fake romanian accent, then the thai actor tried to imitate thes elines and then the original actor imitated these lines again. As a method of creating an accent that feels real without being real.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:32

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Accents are fundamentally otherizing by definition

No they're not. Accents exist in the real world. I speak english with a french-canadian accent.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:32

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

MonsieurChoc posted:

No they're not. Accents exist in the real world. I speak english with a french-canadian accent.

And anyone who doesnt is other to you

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:33

RBA Starblade: Apr 28, 2008; Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester

I speak like Jar Jar

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:33

Mecha Gojira: Jun 23, 2006; Jack Nissan

Cease to Hope posted:

Where exactly did you get this idea that Romanian has anything to do with the Neimoidians?

Transylvania, home of Dracula, is in Romania.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:34

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

And anyone who doesnt is other to you

Lol no.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:34

Schwarzwald: Jul 27, 2004; Don't Blink

Mel Mudkiper posted:

I am saying that the significance of a film is ultimately through the subjective lens of the viewer, but that the viewer is likely to finder a stronger suggestion of racist themes than non racist ones as this one borrows heavily from racist imagery and tropes.

How is the racist interpretation of the film stronger? Make your argument.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Accents are fundamentally otherizing by definition

Non-white people existing is not what racism is.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:35

Cease to Hope: Dec 12, 2011

MonsieurChoc posted:

It's in the article you keep bringing up. They made a game of telephone where the original was speaking a fake romanian accent, then the thai actor tried to imitate thes elines and then the original actor imitated these lines again. As a method of creating an accent that feels real without being real.

Can you quote the part where they bring up Transylvania, or Dracula, or Romania, or any accent but that of a specific unnamed Thai actor?

Here's the link.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:36

Calibanibal: Aug 25, 2015

As the kids say, 'that's a yikes from me'

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:36

ruddiger: Jun 3, 2004

Mel Mudkiper posted:

You do realize power is an essential element of what makes -face a problem right?

You're making the same tedious "I am not racist, I make fun of everyone" argument

No one's being made fun of in Star Wars. Nute Gunray's accent isn't supposed to be funny, it's simply an accent. Accent's alone do not carry intent, which is my point. Lucas has Englishmen put on American accents, Americans putting on English accents, has aliens speaking in REAL WORLD foreign tongues, yet no one's bringing up these examples of Lucas' employment of speech and language, even though they've been there since A New Hope.

https://www.k-international.com/blog/6-star-wars-languages-and-their-real-world-counterparts/

quote:

6 Star Wars Languages and Their Real-World Counterparts

What would an alien language sound like, anyway? In the Star Wars universe, it might sound like Indonesian, or maybe Finnish. Here are some of the most interesting Star Wars languages, along with the real-world languages that inspired them:

Huttese and Quechua
In the real world, the Quechua language family is an indigenous language spoken in the South American Andes. It was the language of the Incas, and currently has 8.9 million native speakers. In the Star Wars universe, however, it sounds an awful lot like Huttese, the language of the Hutts.

When sound designer Ben Burtt was trying to come up with dialog for the bounty hunter Greedo, he drew inspiration from a Quechua language tape. As a result, Huttese shares sounds and even a few words with Quechua.

For example, tuta means night in Quechua. It appears to mean from in Huttese, as in the phrase �Sebulba tuta Pixelito.�

Kanjiklubber and Indonesian
Indonesian and Sundanese inspired Kanjiklubber, a new language that appears in Star Wars, The Force Awakens. To create the Kanjiklubber dialogue, director J.J. Abrams turned to Sara Maria Forsberg. Originally from Finland, Forsberg became �YouTube famous� last year when her video �What Languages Sound Like to Foreigners� took off.

In her video, Forsberg manages to imitate the sounds of various languages without speaking any real words. It�s exactly the sort of talent needed to create the little bits of alien dialogue required for Star Wars: the ability to make gibberish not sound like gibberish.

According to the Wall Street Journal:

�Because the actors were from Indonesia, Ms. Forsberg said that she was encouraged to base her linguistic concoction on the sounds of the national language, Indonesian, as well as of the actors� native language of Sundanese, spoken in western Java. She studied clips of those and other Asian languages to come up with something suitably exotic-sounding. Ms. Forsberg said that she sought to create alien words that would �sound credible� and �not like gibberish.�

Sullustan, Haya and Kikuyu
Lando Calrissian�s pint-sized pilot, Nien Nunb, speaks primarily Sullustan. Since the voice actor who portrayed him was from Africa, the Sullustan language sounds suspiciously like a mix of two African languages, Haya and Kikuyu.

Oh wait, that�s right�that�s because he is speaking Haya and Kikuyu!

Kikuyu is a Bantu language spoken by around 6 million people in Kenya. Haya is spoken by the Haya people of Tanzania. You can hear a little bit of Kikuyu in the video above.

Ewokese: Kalmyk Oirat and Tibetan
What about the Ewoks? The �very primitive dialect� spoken by these furry little warriors is heavily inspired by a combination of languages, including Tibetan and the endangered Kalmyk Oirat language.

According to The Lost Yak, the Tibetan words used are clearly distinguishable, but don�t always pertain to the action on screen:

�Among words the Ewoks are heard employing are Tibetan for �Hurry! Let�s move,� �No, it�s not him. It�s the one over there,� �There is lots of money here! There is lots of money here!� (in a scene where no money of any kind is in sight!), and a brief prayer.�

When the Ewoks pray to C3po, they are actually using a piece of Tibetan Buddhist prayer, according to Wikipedia.

Kalmyk, the other main language used, is a Mongolic language spoken by the nomadic Kalmyk people of Russia. With only 80,500 native speakers, it is classified by UNESCO as �definitely endangered.� After World War II, the entire Kalmyk population was deported to Siberia and the language was forbidden to be taught in school. In was not until the 1980�s that the language was given co-official status with Russian in Kalmykia and efforts were made to revive it.

Geonosian: Xhosa
What about that weird language spoken by those insect-like Aliens in Attack of the Clones? The Geonosian language is about 90 percent penguin mating calls (no joke) and 10 percent inspired by the Xhosa language of Africa. The Xhosa language is one of only a few human languages to use clicks as consonants. You can hear similar sounds when the Geonosians speak in the video above.

(By the way, if you prefer to pretend the prequels never happened, please accept my humble apologies.)

Finnish
In The Phantom Menace�s pod-racing scene, Anakin�s owner Watto and competitor Sebulba inexplicably speak back and forth in Finnish, saying �Kiitos!� (Thank you!) and �Ole hyv�!� (You�re welcome!)

I�m not quite sure what language they were supposed to be speaking, given that the two aliens come from different planets altogether. But hey, I�m sure most movies could be improved with a little bit of gratuitous Finnish.

But why Finnish? As Scandinavian studies professor Ilmari Ivaska explained to Inverse.com:

�You would want a language that has a relatively small native speaker community and that would still be documented well enough to have accessible resources and grammatical and lexical descriptions,� Ivaska said. �Finnish all of a sudden is not such a bad bet.�

ruddiger fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Feb 18, 2019

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:37

Mia Wasikowska: Oct 7, 2006

Mel Mudkiper posted:

And anyone who doesnt is other to you

i don't think you've even read orientalism lamo

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:38

Cease to Hope: Dec 12, 2011

ruddiger posted:

No one's being made fun of in Star Wars. Nute Gunray's accent isn't supposed to be funny, it's simply an accent. Accent's alone do not carry intent, which is my point. Lucas has Englishmen put on American accents, Americans putting on English accents, has aliens speaking in REAL WORLD foreign tongues, yet no one's bringing up these examples of Lucas' employment of speech and language, even though they've been there since A New Hope.

Because there's a great deal of racist history behind people doing impersonations of East Asian people. Not so much with Americans impersonating British people or vice versa.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:40

Calibanibal: Aug 25, 2015

Okay accusing someone of racism is one thing, but let's not go down this dark path of questioning one's reading list

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:40

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

MonsieurChoc posted:

Lol no.

If they weren't otherized, you wouldn't recognize they have an accent.

Identity is negative, not positive

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:44

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

If they weren't otherized, you wouldn't recognize they have an accent.

Identity is negative, not positive

That's a Galaxy Brain take there.

Jesus what a stupid thing to say.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:45

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Schwarzwald posted:

Non-white people existing is not what racism is.

I'm not sure how you got that assumption from my post

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:45

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

MonsieurChoc posted:

That's a Galaxy Brain take there.

Jesus what a stupid thing to say.

For someone who thinks I am wrong you sure seem defensive about the implications of what I say.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:46

Cease to Hope: Dec 12, 2011

just leaving this here

Schwarzwald posted:

Well yeah it's intentional that the dialogue in the prequels sounds like it came out a film from the 40s.

AotC features a fifty's diner. Padme travels in a chrome Flash Gordon rocket. Lucas's retro-kitsch sensibilities are painted all over the films.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:47

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

For someone who thinks I am wrong you sure seem defensive about the implications of what I say.

There's not a lot of implications there. You're straigth-up saying people having different accents makes them "other".

That's jsut pure xenophobia.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:48

ruddiger: Jun 3, 2004

Mel Mudkiper posted:

If they weren't otherized, you wouldn't recognize they have an accent.

Identity is negative, not positive

what is going on with this post

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:49

Schwarzwald: Jul 27, 2004; Don't Blink

Mel Mudkiper posted:

I'm not sure how you got that assumption from my post

"Accents are fundamentally otherizing by definition"

Not presenting as white is not what racism is.
Recognizing that people are different from you is not what othering is.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:51

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

MonsieurChoc posted:

There's not a lot of implications there. You're straigth-up saying people having different accents makes them "other".

That's jsut pure xenophobia.

This seems like arguing you dont see race.

Acknowledging the psychological realities of how we construct identity doesnt mean you are advocating for it as a moral imperative.

We create the other by assertion of difference from the self. Refusing to acknowledge that doesnt make a bulwark against prejudice. If anything refusal to be honest and critical about the nature of identity is how prejudice seeps in

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:51

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Schwarzwald posted:

Recognizing that people are different from you is not what othering is.

Please explain how one constructs the other without difference

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:54

Mia Wasikowska: Oct 7, 2006

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Please explain how one constructs the other without difference

in all seriousness, when it comes to accents and the other, you can't really talk about them without talking about place and hegemony and all that. i think thats why people are reacting so strongly against what you're saying

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:57

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Zas posted:

in all seriousness, when it comes to accents and the other, you can't really talk about them without talking about place and hegemony and all that. i think thats why people are reacting so strongly against what you're saying

Agreed

# ? Feb 18, 2019 19:58

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

This seems like arguing you dont see race.

Not the same thing at all.

Otherizing is very different from just noticing people have differences.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 20:03

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 12:02

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

It also occurs to me I should clarify that when I say all identity is negative, I don't mean negative in the sense of bad.

I mean our identities are constructed in contrast to others.

# ? Feb 18, 2019 20:04

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