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caracas guido posted:The truth is the only solution in Venezuela that would work to get rid of Maduro and the strongmen that surround him is war. i mean, this is why i'm crossing my fingers for these last little flickers of hope (in the form of Maduro and friends being forced to hold, and losing, a proper election, and the results sticking, and a path to recovery being possible) "venezuela is 100% hosed in any plausible scenario" strikes me as worryingly, well, plausible
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Feb 19, 2019 02:07
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Condiv posted:i remember what obama's administration did to honduras and how a psychotic right wing government now rules supreme Do you really think that Obama is personally responsible for the coup that took place in Honduras? Really? Or that the opposition to Zelaya in Honduras was comparable at all to the opposition in Venezuela? Or that Central America is really that comparable to South America? It's really cute when americans who don't know jack about latin american politics or events or how things are in these parts of the world try to analyze and compare things between two different countries on two completely separate continents. It's like trying to compare Indonesia and Iran. caracas guido fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Feb 19, 2019 |
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Feb 19, 2019 02:09
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Tom Guycot posted:If the US really cared about the people of venezuela, unfreeze all the accounts, stop all the sanctions, send in aid unconditionally with the support and help of the UN and red cross, stop taking a public stand on who its leader should be, and work with the UN to make sure the next elections are heavily monitored for any foul play. If the PSUV really cared about the people of Venezuela, it would have had normal, non-rigged elections. There wouldn't be a Constituent Assembly, there would have been a recall election, there would have been state elections taking place on the scheduled date, there wouldn't be a loving massive crisis of food and medicine shortages. Instead of wondering how pure hearted future US actions might be, why don't you look at the actions that have been taken by the PSUV and tell me if they in any way show care for the people of Venezuela.
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Feb 19, 2019 02:13
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caracas guido posted:Do you really think that Obama is personally responsible for the coup that took place in Honduras? Really? yes, he supported the coup. he refused to enforce american law wrt the coup government. he helped legitimize the coup government. quote:Or that the opposition to Zelaya in Honduras was comparable at all to the opposition in Venezuela? I'm sure the guys being backed by an american fascist are really swell and definitely gonna do great things for venezuela. this time will be different and an american backed coup will bring great things quote:Or that Central America is at all comparable to South America in any way shape or form? they are comparable in some ways, shapes, or forms. for example, both have an extensive history of us backed coups loving things up
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Feb 19, 2019 02:14
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hexen hour posted:Instead of wondering how pure hearted future US actions might be we don't have to wonder. trump is a monster i'm not sure why it's so hard for people to grasp that he will not help venezuela one bit
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Feb 19, 2019 02:18
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someone else brought it up earlier, but if trump was earnest about helping venezuelans he'd be accepting venezuelan refugees: https://prospect.org/article/trump-tough-on-venezuela-wont-let-fleeing-venezuelans-usquote:In fact, the United States has deported more Venezuelans in the past few months than it’s resettled Venezuelan refugees in years.
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Feb 19, 2019 02:23
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does anyone, anywhere, think trump is earnest about helping venezuelans? the nicest i've seen anyone even imply is that it's making a deal with the devil to get rid of maduro is the only practical alternative to continuing to suffer under maduro.
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Feb 19, 2019 02:27
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Cease to Hope posted:does anyone, anywhere, think trump is earnest about helping venezuelans? the nicest i've seen anyone even imply is that it's making a deal with the devil to get rid of maduro is the only practical alternative to continuing to suffer under maduro. that implication presumes that trump's not going to increase suffering in venezuela a poo poo ton more. he's already doing it before the coup's been successful and I have no reason to believe his coup is going to actually improve anything for venezuelans as opposed to making things worse like is usual for US backed coups
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Feb 19, 2019 02:31
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Opposing Maduro doesn't mean you support Trump's brainwormed stumbling into the issue 20 years too late any more than criticizing Stalin makes you a tsarist apologist (or criticizing Hitler makes you a Stalinist). It also doesn't mean that sanctions which were laid like, a month ago are responsible for the destruction of democratic institutions, civil society, and the economy in Venezuela which began under Chavez and was entirely completely before Trump took office. The people who can't order a sandwich without checking Russia Today's latest talking points are really showing their lack of grasp of the facts here.
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Feb 19, 2019 02:36
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Condiv posted:that implication presumes that trump's not going to increase suffering in venezuela a poo poo ton more. he's already doing it before the coup's been successful and I have no reason to believe his coup is going to actually improve anything for venezuelans as opposed to making things worse like is usual for US backed coups But Maduro is literally the Devil so it's okay.
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Feb 19, 2019 02:36
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M. Discordia posted:Opposing Maduro doesn't mean you support Trump's brainwormed stumbling into the issue 20 years too late any more than criticizing Stalin makes you a tsarist apologist (or criticizing Hitler makes you a Stalinist). It also doesn't mean that sanctions which were laid like, a month ago are responsible for the destruction of democratic institutions, civil society, and the economy in Venezuela which began under Chavez and was entirely completely before Trump took office. The people who can't order a sandwich without checking Russia Today's latest talking points are really showing their lack of grasp of the facts here. trump's been dumping sanctions on venezuela since 2017 at the very least. dunno why you think he started just a month ago
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Feb 19, 2019 02:39
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I am opposed to the US interfering with other countries who are doing a great job of falling on their own ideological swords.
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Feb 19, 2019 02:41
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Condiv posted:that implication presumes that trump's not going to increase suffering in venezuela a poo poo ton more. well. yeah. i happen to think trump is going to increase suffering in venezuela a poo poo ton more. i'm trying to honestly represent a position i disagree with, rather than caricaturing anyone who is pro-guaido as a big fan of sledgehammering civilians Condiv posted:trump's been dumping sanctions on venezuela since 2017 at the very least. dunno why you think he started just a month ago you might find it instructive to look at his post history, especially WRT the dates.
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Feb 19, 2019 02:43
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I've spoken to people who believe that no matter how bad a socialist nation may be they must always be supported 100% even if they're disasters. They're idiots who don't care about people beyond an ideology.
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Feb 19, 2019 02:47
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Condiv posted:trump's been dumping sanctions on venezuela since 2017 at the very least. dunno why you think he started just a month ago Sanctions on the personal wealth of Maduro cabinet members. Sanctions on Venezuelan oil in general started in 2019. I would love to hear the socialists explain why socialism requires the Chavez and Maduro families to have over US$2billion in Swiss bank accounts or why targeting that behavior specifically is the cause of Venezuela's food shortages.
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Feb 19, 2019 02:58
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M. Discordia posted:I would love to hear the socialists explain why socialism requires the Chavez and Maduro families to have over US$2billion in Swiss bank accounts or why targeting that behavior specifically is the cause of Venezuela's food shortages. That figure sounds made up to me, much like the oft quoted 100 billion dollar fortune of vladimir putin that exists...somewhere. In 2013, it was only 550 million according to opposition sources, next year he will have caught up to putin in terms of embezzlement: quote:Here the late-president's family owns 17 country estates, totalling more than 100,000 acres, in addition to liquid assets of $550 million (Ł360 million) stored in various international bank accounts, according to Venezuelan news website Noticias Centro. This is just the old kuwaiti babies in incubators trick, but with a layer of financial malfeasance. It's also funny that "Noticias Centro" no longer has an internet presence where the claim can be independently verified.
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Feb 19, 2019 03:05
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Condiv posted:yes, he supported the coup. he refused to enforce american law wrt the coup government. he helped legitimize the coup government. So what you're saying he should have stuck his nose in that coup and constitutional crisis but that the US shouldn't stick their nose in this one? The US didn't recognize Micheletti's government as legitimate and formally declaring it a military coup would have led to an immediate cutting off of any foreign aid from the US and essentially an immediate imposition of sanctions. Condiv posted:I'm sure the guys being backed by an american fascist are really swell and definitely gonna do great things for venezuela. this time will be different and an american backed coup will bring great things As mentioned the opposition existed in Venezuala before the US' statement of support. I also repeat that the only reason Guaidó is the figurehead of the opposition right now is because all more well known figures have been imprisoned for years now or forced into exile by being told that their return would not be welcome. The US have had basically zero to do with who this ended up being. I should just add that inadvertently (I think) Trump is doing the very best to torpedo Venezuelan opposition efforts. From his appointment of Abrams to his talk of invasion all of it just shores up Maduro all of it is him just doing about the worst possible thing if you want this to pass off peacefully in any way.
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Feb 19, 2019 03:08
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:That figure sounds made up to me, much like the oft quoted 100 billion dollar fortune of vladimir putin that exists...somewhere. It's been charged in courts in multiple countries but I guess "NUH-UH" is about where we are in the hosed-up tankie timecube that is PSUV apology land. https://apnews.com/7a7fe8b6733a4971859f36df91d27b6f
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Feb 19, 2019 03:10
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Munin posted:So what you're saying he should have stuck his nose in that coup and constitutional crisis but that the US shouldn't stick their nose in this one? The US didn't recognize Micheletti's government as legitimate and formally declaring it a military coup would have led to an immediate cutting off of any foreign aid from the US and essentially an immediate imposition of sanctions. sooo... pushing for the recognition of the coup government is staying out of the coup, but upholding law saying we don't give aid to coup governments is imperialism on the level of supporting a coup? quote:As mentioned the opposition existed in Venezuala before the US' statement of support. I also repeat that the only reason Guaidó is the figurehead of the opposition right now is because all more well known figures have been imprisoned for years now or forced into exile by being told that their return would not be welcome. The US have had basically zero to do with who this ended up being. your theory is that trump is doing his best to hamstring the venezuelan opposition? 
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Feb 19, 2019 03:15
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M. Discordia posted:It's been charged in courts in multiple countries but I guess "NUH-UH" is about where we are in the hosed-up tankie timecube that is PSUV apology land. The only solid figure they can trace is an account worth 200 million and another for 45 million, the "billions" in embezzlement is purely rhetoric. With those figures, that puts them on par with other petrostates like Nigeria. Hardly ideal, but hardly something that you need to dust elliot abrams out of retirement for unless there were other motives at work.
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Feb 19, 2019 03:16
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Condiv posted:your theory is that trump is doing his best to hamstring the venezuelan opposition? are you vague on the meaning of "inadvertently"
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Feb 19, 2019 03:16
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Cease to Hope posted:are you vague on the meaning of "inadvertently" in combination with "doing the very best", yes. the two are pretty incompatible, since "doing his very best" indicates striving towards a goal, which is the opposite of inadvertent action
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Feb 19, 2019 03:21
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Condiv posted:yes, he supported the coup. he refused to enforce american law wrt the coup government. he helped legitimize the coup government. All the news out there and Obama's own words showed Obama called the coup what it was, a coup. Also what American Law specifically? Sanctions? Using your logic sanctions would only have hurt the Honduranian people more. You can't have it both ways and support sanctions against countries you hate and bash sanctions against country you don't. Condiv posted:I'm sure the guys being backed by an american fascist are really swell and definitely gonna do great things for venezuela. this time will be different and an american backed coup will bring great things What coup? There is no coup involved here. No military have invaded miraflores and removed Maduro from power. The national assembly is the legitimate legislative branch of the Venezuelan government and it is within its power to name a president as it has done. If anyone has actually enacted a coup in Venezuela it was Maduro against the assembly and pretty much every other legitimate institution in Venezuela. I find it funny when people who don't know the history of recent events and the actions of Maduro much less the powers of its legislatures talk about coups. But once again you don't know anything about Venezuelan politics. You don't know for example that the biggest party of the opposition in Venezuelan, AD or "Democratic Action" are members of the Socialist International and their leader, Henry Ramos Allup, is kind of hated by most Venezuelan protestors because of how feckless and weak his positions and actions have been - constantly calling for electoral solutions when it has been clearly for ages now that the elections are rigged. CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:That figure sounds made up to me, much like the oft quoted 100 billion dollar fortune of vladimir putin that exists...somewhere. Please continue to defend Putin and pretend that he is not massively rich. It shows your real face and how much you actually love the fascists you claim to hate. caracas guido fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Feb 19, 2019 |
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Feb 19, 2019 03:21
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Condiv posted:in combination with "doing the very best", yes. the two are pretty incompatible, since "doing his very best" indicates striving towards a goal, which is the opposite of inadvertent action "inadvertently doing the very best thing [possible]" is compatible with all the other words where he's saying that trump is accidentally helping maduro. read, comprehend, post.
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Feb 19, 2019 03:24
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:The only solid figure they can trace is an account worth 200 million and another for 45 million, the "billions" in embezzlement is purely rhetoric. You don't seem to comprehend exactly how much oil Venezuela has and how much money they were bringing in before they torpedoed all their own wells from incompetence. That kind of money just doesn't disappear. It was on levels comparable to Saudi Arabia and Saudi Arabia was sending all their college kids to the United States to study with $50,000 scholarships annually and buying up and investing billions in foreign companies left and right. Venezuela has NOTHING but crumbling 20 year old infrastructure. Saudi Arabia has massive steel buildings and modern metropolises in the middle of the loving desert. And that doesn't even touch the drug money that the Cartel of the Suns are moving through Venezuela, which for the US routes is nearly all of it.
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Feb 19, 2019 03:30
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caracas guido posted:All the news out there and Obama's own words showed Obama called the coup what it was, a coup. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/jul/01/honduras-zelaya-coup-obama quote:The first statement from the White House in response to the coup was weak and non-committal. It did not denounce the coup but rather called upon "all political and social actors in Honduras to respect democratic norms, the rule of law and the tenets of the Inter-American Democratic Charter". didn't take long to look up so i'm not sure why you couldn't figure it out quote:What coup? There is no coup involved here. hah
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Feb 19, 2019 03:30
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caracas guido posted:Please continue to defend Putin and pretend that he is not massively rich. It shows your real face and how much you actually love the fascists you claim to hate. I don't have a stake in that game, but I do remember when yeltsin's family handpicked him for the presidency and the west went along, even praising him in 2000 after his "election:" quote:Matthew H. Murray, a former United States Senate aide who has worked with investors here for the last decade, frequently negotiated with Mr. Putin when he worked with foreign businesses. Mr. Murray called Mr. Putin very tough, mentally swift, immaculately prepared and ingenious at navigating Russia's labyrinthine bureaucracy. Maybe you should look into how consent is manufactured in the west when it comes to foreign affairs. caracas guido posted:That kind of money just doesn't disappear. It was on levels comparable to Saudi Arabia and Saudi Arabia was sending all their college kids to the United States to study with $50,000 scholarships annually and buying up and investing billions in foreign companies left and right. Venezuela has NOTHING but crumbling 20 year old infrastructure. Saudi Arabia has massive steel buildings and modern metropolises in the middle of the loving desert. Saudi Arabia is a major bankroller of global terrorism and US vassal state. For all of PSUV's corruption and malfeasance, they haven't paid 20 people to fly planes into the world trade center and pentagon yet. CAPS LOCK BROKEN fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Feb 19, 2019 |
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Feb 19, 2019 03:32
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Cease to Hope posted:"inadvertently doing the very best thing [possible]" is compatible with all the other words where he's saying that trump is accidentally helping maduro. read, comprehend, post. he didn't write "doing the very best thing possible". why are you lecturing me about reading when you're changing what he said?
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Feb 19, 2019 03:33
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Condiv posted:hah So thats your answer? Anything authoritarian actions Maduro implemented to overule the will of the people and the legislature including rigging elections, imprisoning opposition politicna, and enacting mirror legislatures was A-OK? What a loving joke of a fascist you are. CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:I don't have a stake in that game, but I do remember when yeltsin's family handpicked him for the presidency and the west went along, even praising him in 2000 after his "election:" It's 2018. Who loving cares about what some lovely pundit said in 2000? Imagine that is it possible that a person in the international scene who had never served a day in his life in government actually changed? God drat man what the gently caress is the relevancy of ANY OF THIS to the statement? It's just a bunch of loving gish galloping bullshit that has nothing to do with the matter at hand and DOESN'T EVEN answer the loving ISSUE BROUGHT UP. Could you be any more false or disingenuous? Your only goal is clearly ideological. You have no desire for a good faith conversation or to understand the situation at hand. You are utterly pathetic when it comes to your stupid smokescreens of pointless facts that have nothing to do with what we're talking about. caracas guido fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Feb 19, 2019 |
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Feb 19, 2019 03:34
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caracas guido posted:You don't seem to comprehend exactly how much oil Venezuela has and how much money they were bringing in before they torpedoed all their own wells from incompetence. I heard Maduro actually has stolen in excess of $43 quadrillion
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Feb 19, 2019 03:34
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Unrelated to current events, but I just finished the Revolutions podcast series on Simón Bolívar. Good background on how independent South America came to be
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Feb 19, 2019 03:36
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caracas guido posted:So thats your answer? i have said nothing about maduro's actions. i laughed at your idea that there's no us-backed coup in motion also, it's pretty laughable that you're trying to call me a fascist cause I don't support trump's fascist coup
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Feb 19, 2019 03:36
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Once this all goes down and the US goes in, and we get Elliot Abrams contra death squads and this becomes an absolute bloodbath, and the intervention finally becomes widely considered by liberals to have been a "mistake" - I'll be asking all of you in this thread whether you knew this would happen from the beginning but still pushed for it knowingly, or whether you were really convinced that it could never happen and that it was going to turn out just fine. If it's the latter I will also ask why you refused to listen to the people trying to warn you about exactly how it would go down, and whether you will next time. You can start thinking about what your answer will be now if you want.
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Feb 19, 2019 03:36
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Condiv posted:you seem to lack reading comprehension. us law says that we are supposed to cut off aid to coup governments. instead, obama's administration not only ignored the law and continued financial and military aid to the coup government, his administration also pushed for other countries to recognize the coup government as legitimate. I don't get how you read opposition to that as advocacy for sticking his nose in that coup Plenty of the US establishment was very happy with that coup and hence the media was not full of condemnation of the coup. The administration itself never recognised the coup though and put pressure on Zelaya to be reinstated. That was always the official stance. It's one of the reasons why Zelaya was let back into the country and new elections were held within 6 months. Of course though you would have preferred to have seen the full range of regime sanctions imposed there that you condemn in Venezuela. Now, the current regime is full of, unfortunately elected (first time legimately, second time much less so), shitheads who had proceeded to show all their principles hollow by amending the constitution to allow multiple terms just after having had a coup to prevent the same. Allowing multiple terms also ended just as well as expected. Condiv posted:your theory is that trump is doing his best to hamstring the venezuelan opposition? Nah, I think him and his advisers so lack any understanding of the situation, why else would they appoint someone like Abrams, that any of their efforts is likely to totally backfire.
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Feb 19, 2019 03:38
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Bob le Moche posted:Once this all goes down and the US goes in, and we get Elliot Abrams contra death squads and this becomes an absolute bloodbath, and the intervention finally becomes widely considered by liberals to have been a "mistake" - I'll be asking all of you in this thread whether you knew this would happen from the beginning but still pushed for it knowingly, or whether you were really convinced that it could never happen and that it was going to turn out just fine. If it's the latter I will also ask why you refused to listen to the people trying to warn you about exactly how it would go down, and whether you will next time. You can start thinking about what your answer will be now if you want. Cease to Hope posted:it's real hard to take you seriously as a champion of human rights when you have to stop to wipe all the drool over the venezuelan bodies that are going to prove you right off your chin.
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Feb 19, 2019 03:40
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"I don't want to take warnings that bad things will happen seriously even if they're true because thinking about bad things makes me feel bad - gotta stay positive!"
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Feb 19, 2019 03:43
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Bob le Moche posted:Once this all goes down and the US goes in, and we get Elliot Abrams contra death squads and this becomes an absolute bloodbath, and the intervention finally becomes widely considered by liberals to have been a "mistake" - I'll be asking all of you in this thread whether you knew this would happen from the beginning but still pushed for it knowingly, or whether you were really convinced that it could never happen and that it was going to turn out just fine. If it's the latter I will also ask why you refused to listen to the people trying to warn you about exactly how it would go down, and whether you will next time. You can start thinking about what your answer will be now if you want. Maybe if leftists had pushed against Maduro's authoritarian actions sooner and Brazil, Argentina, Ecuador, and Bolivia who all knew he was rigging elections had pushed back against that happening this could have been prevented. But if; as you state, this happens there's really nothing any of us can do about it. Anyone who knows the situations had been saying Chavez and Maduro were going to lead to a bad situation for Venezuela for well around 15 years now. His regime and the people in his nation will suffer because of his own evil intentions, corruption, and theft. It is a great shame but your support for him reveals your own complicity in what will happen there. You play into the same circle of violence continuously and expect different results? You have failed time and time again and have never succeeded once. Being right doesn't mean jack poo poo when you're up against a death squad. Get out of here with your childish ideological posturing and pretending you're right all the time and knows what's best. You don't know jack poo poo. You only know how to set the world aflame and bring pain into the lives of everyone involved. You hypocrisy knows no bounds. You claim to have warned us about what will go down for a while when we have done nothing but warn people in this thread for ages about Maduro and the PSUV and the inevitable results of their actions.
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Feb 19, 2019 03:43
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Bob le Moche posted:"I don't want to take warnings that bad things will happen seriously even if they're true because thinking about bad things makes me feel bad - gotta stay positive!" are you under the impression that i think the US intervention is good, or that any US intervention of any kind can possibly be good, or that the US can possibly have any moral authority to intervene? i assure you, i do not. stop being a weird gross creep, poo poo's not hard.
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Feb 19, 2019 03:45
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Munin posted:Plenty of the US establishment was very happy with that coup and hence the media was not full of condemnation of the coup. The administration itself never recognised the coup though and put pressure on Zelaya to be reinstated. That was always the official stance. It's one of the reasons why Zelaya was let back into the country and new elections were held within 6 months. nice try https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-us-role-in-the-honduras-coup-and-subsequent-violence_us_5766c7ebe4b0092652d7a138 quote:Emails released last year by the State Department also show how Clinton rejected calls by the international community to condemn the coup and used her lobbyist friend Lanny Davis — who was working for the Honduran chapter of the Business Council of Latin America, which supported the coup — to open communications with Micheletti, the illegitimate interim ruler installed by the military. quote:Nah, I think him and his advisers so lack any understanding of the situation, why else would they appoint someone like Abrams, that any of their efforts is likely to totally backfire. sounds like just one more reason the venezuelan opposition should not be allying with trump and his fascists. it's odd that they are still in bed with trump
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Feb 19, 2019 03:45
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Bob le Moche posted:"I don't want to take warnings that bad things will happen seriously even if they're true because thinking about bad things makes me feel bad - gotta stay positive!" "I'll ignore all the bad things happening now, surely things will get better if I wish for it hard enough." *add "This is fine" comic*
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Feb 19, 2019 03:47
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