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Cease to Hope posted:There are a lot of people arguing that Jar Jar is not a fool despite all of the foolish things he does because it conflicts with their theory that requires Qui-Gon to always be wrong when he judges someone's character. When repeatedly faced with contradictory interpretations or readings you've just been ignoring them and continuing to double down This whole time a couple of us have been trying to demonstrate to you--me using visuals from the movie! I made gifs!--that there is evidence that Jar Jar is not a fool doing foolish things...and you haven't directly responded to them a single time. And like, that's your prerogative I guess? It's just not very persuasive If Jar Jar is so plainly foolish and bad in your eyes, it should be trivially easy to show your work, and you...don't want to? Can't? I don't understand I'm confident and comfortable enough in my read that Jar Jar is trustworthy and confident that I think it's very easy to provide evidence--and I've done so. Where's your work? Having opinions is fine and good, but support them with the text at least, not half baked theory Waffles Inc. fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 01:04
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Cease to Hope posted:Let me know when you want to address things in my posts, not things you imagine I must believe. Your beliefs are expressed through the act of writing. Because you are not in control of your actions, your beliefs are becoming increasingly bizarre. So you currently believe several mutually-contradictory things, including: 1) Jar Jar has a stupid accent that makes him appear falsely subhuman. 2) Jar Jar is objectively subhuman, which this is an insult to his fine accent. 3) Jar Jar is subhuman and has a stupid accent.
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Feb 21, 2019 01:08
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Waffles Inc. posted:When repeatedly faced with contradictory interpretations or readings you've just been ignoring them and continuing to double down You are conflating foolish and bad here. He's a decent guy who is doing his very best to help! His best just isn't very good, and he constantly makes things worse via his own incompetence. Even his meager successes are slapstick jokes that he is the butt of. The reading of Jar-Jar as an underestimated hero who learns to overcome his basic incompetence is appealing to me, but entirely compatible with my argument that Lucas uses non-white accents as signifiers of incompetence and greed. You've gone from my actual argument, that Jar-Jar is a foolish person, to your imaginary Cease who inexplicably thinks that Jar-Jar is subhuman. Perhaps take this up with imaginary Cease and stop bothering me? Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 01:11
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Cease to Hope posted:You are conflating foolish and bad here. He's a decent guy who is doing his very best to help! His best just isn't very good, and he constantly makes things worse via his own incompetence [...] entirely compatible with my argument that Lucas uses non-white accents as signifiers of incompetence and greed. But you haven't ever demonstrated this. You've just...said it. And also to the second part there: this hinges entirely upon demonstrating that Jar Jar, Nute Gunray and/or Watto are incompetent or greedy. Which you haven't done.
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Feb 21, 2019 01:17
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Cease to Hope posted:It is just gonna blow your fuckin' mind the first time you open a CRT text, huh. Not sure what you mean by CRT text, but nothing white people or white culture does surprises me anymore, nor the mental gymnastics they do when trying to justify their systemically biased opinions, like how "uanccented" American English should be read as the assumed baseline normal in regards to other accents, you can gently caress right off with that poo poo. People within America's very own borders speak American English in various accents, and those with "unaccented" English always use it as a base of mock and derision, and it mostly goes unchecked despite being ugly and classist as gently caress.
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Feb 21, 2019 01:20
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Jar Jar votes in favor of giving a Sith vast emergency powers.
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Feb 21, 2019 01:21
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sponges posted:Jar Jar votes in favor of giving a Sith vast emergency powers. Given the alternative he was basically voting for Kodos
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Feb 21, 2019 01:25
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Cease to Hope posted:You've gone from my actual argument, that Jar-Jar is a foolish person, to your imaginary Cease who inexplicably thinks that Jar-Jar is subhuman. Perhaps take this up with imaginary Cease and stop bothering me? You wrote that the actions of the heroes are ‘framed differently’, so that characters like Quigon appear more incompetent than Jar Jar. You also wrote that Quigon is objectively more competent than Jar Jar. That’s your current post. You also wrote that Quigon sounds more competent because he’s white. These are entirely different things that you are constantly mixing up.
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Feb 21, 2019 01:28
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Waffles Inc. posted:But you haven't ever demonstrated this. You've just...said it. Jar-Jar is introduced in a scene where he almost gets Qui-Gon killed. He's been banished from his home because he is clumsy, yet forgets this fact momentarily. Jar-Jar is repeatedly told to stand still and do nothing, then ignores that advice and makes things worse, such as in Watto's shop and the Mos Espa market. Rather than taking down a tied-up carcass to steal it to eat it, he seizes its with his mouth, heedless of the twine holding it up. When this results in him being caught, he carelessly spits it out, causing an even bigger mess. When working on the pod racer, he ignores a warning to be careful and electrocutes himself, almost resulting in much greater injury (and disaster for everyone). Oh yeah and he doesn't look where he's walking, which other people helpfully contributed. These are all comically foolish things to do.
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Feb 21, 2019 01:33
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You also wrote that Quigon sounds more competent because he’s white. Cease to Hope posted:"TPM depicts people with accents as pathetic and greedy."
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Feb 21, 2019 01:36
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sponges posted:Jar Jar votes in favor of giving a Sith vast emergency powers. Jar Jar considers Palpatine a friend, and trusts him, especially in light of his mentor Padme being in danger. His faith in his friends is his weakness.
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Feb 21, 2019 01:37
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This is circular reasoning. You're saying that the movie depicts Qui-Gon as competent by having him speak in a voice that denotes competence, and saying that this voice denotes competence because it is given to a character who is depicted as competent.
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Feb 21, 2019 01:38
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Cease to Hope posted:Jar-Jar is introduced in a scene where he almost gets Qui-Gon killed. Wrong. Qui Gon's running blindly through the woods, Jar Jar is the one familiar with the land. quote:He's been banished from his home because he is clumsy, yet forgets this fact momentarily. Proven wrong. He admits he stole Boss Nass' car and it got wrecked, we're never told the circumstances that led to it, and you already admitted you based your presupposed conclusion on an incomplete transcript. quote:Jar-Jar is repeatedly told to stand still and do nothing, then ignores that advice and makes things worse, such as in Watto's shop and the Mos Espa market. He's standing still when R2 rudely bumps into him in the spaceship garage scene that you clearly don't remember, since you again consistently cited a deleted scene in relation to it. quote:Rather than taking down a tied-up carcass to steal it to eat it, he seizes its with his mouth, heedless of the twine holding it up. When this results in him being caught, he carelessly spits it out, causing an even bigger mess. He didn't realize it was the inventory of a shopkeeper, and when called out on it he let it go, and it slingshotted. You can't blame Jar Jar for the physics behind the conservation of energy. quote:When working on the pod racer, he ignores a warning to be careful and electrocutes himself, almost resulting in much greater injury (and disaster for everyone). He's an amphibious creature learning his way around electrical equipment. No one is mortified that Jar Jar almost killed himself so it can be inferred that his electrocution wasn't life-threatening. It can even be argued that Jar Jar sticking his face in the power coupling arc is what gives Anakin the idea to kitbash his workaround when the sabotaged piece Sebulba broke falls off. quote:Oh yeah and he doesn't look where he's walking, which other people helpfully contributed. He's deliberately looking at his targets before each step in this gif.  quote:These are all comically foolish things to do. These are all terribly biased viewpoints that fall in line with the ideology of the "from a certain point of view" jedi.
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Feb 21, 2019 01:47
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Bongo Bill posted:This is circular reasoning. You're saying that the movie depicts Qui-Gon as competent by having him speak in a voice that denotes competence, and saying that this voice denotes competence because it is given to a character who is depicted as competent. Depiction is a direct thing. Denotation is the association. They aren't the same thing at all. Jar-Jar is depicted as a fool in that he does many foolish things. This associates his accent with foolishness. This association is also supported by the fact that of the main characters with (imitation) non-white accents, another one of them is also foolish. I am criticizing the association Lucas et al. created by making all of the characters with non-white accents greedy and/or incompetent. They are not greedy and/or incompetent because they have their accents; they have their accents and are greedy/incompetent because someone wrote them that way. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 01:49
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Bongo Bill posted:Jar Jar considers Palpatine a friend, and trusts him, especially in light of his mentor Padme being in danger. His faith in his friends is his weakness. Yeah. He’s an idiot but so is everyone in the prequels. Three movies of dullards flailing around accomplishing nothing. Just awful awful stuff.
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Feb 21, 2019 01:52
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Cease to Hope posted:I am criticizing the association Lucas et al. created by making all of the characters with non-white accents greedy and/or incompetent. Boss Nass, Gen. Tarpals, Jango Fett, Yoda, etc. et. al. Keep throwing around those blanket associations tho! That's a very healthy, non-white thing to do.
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Feb 21, 2019 01:53
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ruddiger posted:Boss Nass, Gen. Tarpals, Jango Fett, Yoda, etc. et. al. Jango Fett isn't in Phantom Menace. Cease to Hope posted:yoda does not speak with an accent associated with real people, and is in any case a holdover from a previous film that doesn't have the same problems. Boss Nass and Captain Tarpals are much less prominent than one of the main protagonists and two of the main antagonists.
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Feb 21, 2019 01:58
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Cease to Hope posted:Jango Fett isn't in Phantom Menace. So are we not talking about George Lucas' intentions anymore? Make up your mind.
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Feb 21, 2019 02:05
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ruddiger posted:So are we not talking about George Lucas' intentions anymore? Make up your mind. Suffice it to say, this goes for all the other ways AOTC (and ROTS) move away from TPM's unfortunate dabbling in racial caricature. Cease to Hope posted:I think it's interesting that Jar-Jar is more dignified and tragic in AOTC, and I consider it part of a general move away from the racial caricature that plagues TPM in particular. It's a separate movie, though, one that was made after Lucas was well aware of the criticism of TPM.
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Feb 21, 2019 02:07
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWEjxkkB8Xs
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Feb 21, 2019 02:10
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Cease to Hope posted:Suffice it to say, this goes for all the other ways AOTC (and ROTS) move away from TPM's unfortunate dabbling in racial caricature. There's a lot of fan fiction and just straight up fabricated bullshit in regards to Lucas' writing/rewriting process in your post, unless you can point to specific quotes about Lucas admitting that. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/1986453.stm quote:Lucas, who started writing Episode III a month ago, dismisses the notion that Phantom Menace was a let down. there's some hellworld irony going on in some of these quotes too. quote:Attack of the Clones is set 10 years after Phantom Menace. As an independent-minded director, who refuses to take a focus group approach to film-making, Lucas says he knew he had to make some unpopular decisions in setting the scene in Episode I. ruddiger fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 02:17
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Do you really think George Lucas would do that? Go into an interview and lie to make himself look good? Scandalous!
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Feb 21, 2019 02:21
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Cease to Hope posted:Do you really think George Lucas would do that? Go into an interview and lie to make himself look good? Scandalous! But we do have an example of Lucas being critical of his work and correcting a misstep. And you already proved you know about it. The Holiday Special. George realized what a bad piece of work it is, and has never tried to justify it, he's even been quoted about it during an interview (bbbbut he's supposed to make himself look good when he does those!). George Lucas posted:If I had the time and a sledgehammer, I would track down every copy of that show and smash it. ruddiger fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 02:24
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Cease to Hope posted:Depiction is a direct thing. Denotation is the association. They aren't the same thing at all. you sound like an incredible dumbass because you can't back up these any of these assertions. jar jar's "foolishness" and "incompetence" is some kind of pathological issue for you. jar jar is not incompetent. no plans or designs are failed because of jar jar and he genuinely helps those around him despite some basic flaws. he has a full character arc and his curiosity, clumsiness and cheerful and humorous, if naive, attitude makes him an audience identification character for kids
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Feb 21, 2019 02:30
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Jar Jar is an adult who behaves in the manner of a child. That is foolish in a way that appeals to children, as you noted.
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Feb 21, 2019 02:35
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Jar Jar is an incompetent Representative of Naboo. It took almost no effort to get him to grant Palpatine emergency powers. He hardly knew the man. Jar Jar is a dunce.
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Feb 21, 2019 02:35
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he doesn't "act like a child". you're just making up poo poo
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Feb 21, 2019 02:36
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sponges posted:Jar Jar is an incompetent Representative of Naboo. It took almost no effort to get him to grant Palpatine emergency powers. He hardly knew the man. This at least has some merit. But its not like Jar Jar was the only one fooled
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Feb 21, 2019 02:37
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Cease to Hope posted:Jar Jar is an adult who behaves in the manner of a child. That is foolish in a way that appeals to children, as you noted. Pee Wee Herman and his supporting cast are the same types of personality, but their childish ruddiger fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 02:37
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sponges posted:Jar Jar is an incompetent Representative of Naboo. It took almost no effort to get him to grant Palpatine emergency powers. He hardly knew the man. In that scene, Jar Jar personifies the desires of the Republic - if not its people then at least their representatives. There's a lot more going on around the declaration of war than mere stupidity.
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Feb 21, 2019 02:40
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Nebalebadingdong posted:This at least has some merit. But its not like Jar Jar was the only one fooled True. The plot of the prequels only works if everyone is a malleable easily duped dummy. Yoda, Nute Gunray, Padme. Everyone! All victims of an old mans political machinations.
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Feb 21, 2019 02:42
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sponges posted:True. The plot of the prequels only works if everyone is a malleable easily duped dummy. Yoda, Nute Gunray, Padme. Everyone! All victims of an old mans political machinations. Bush was elected right after the movie came out.
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Feb 21, 2019 02:42
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ruddiger posted:Bush was elected right after the movie came out. Indeed he was. TPM and the 2000 election are like a perfect parallel. George Lucas had a premonition.
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Feb 21, 2019 02:44
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Waffles Inc. posted:But you haven't ever demonstrated this. You've just...said it. To summarise where Cease to Hope’s at, It’s that TPM as a work is perpetuating the prejudices of the hegemonic culture it’s a product of. So the turn towards objectification of those characters denoted as other; specifically by the particular feature of their accent is reinforced by some inherent characteristic that accent conveys. Which stands in stark contrast against like, how Qui-Gon sounds and behaves etc; so the objectification of their reading was already the presupposition of the text, the objectification is justified - “the ability to speak does not make one intelligent.” Again, it’s not an anti-racist reading or critique of the text despite its form, it’s incredibly reactionary - working more as a mystification of the ideology of racism. What's present is the main operative mode that liberal ideology takes on today when dealing with the other, reflexively as humanitarianism and so on. Taking on a patronising reverence of the other, that the portrayal of an alien not representative of the hegemonic culture can’t have failings, can’t gently caress up and can’t be offensive; but the accent itself is this discomforting and distorting intrusion, how they speak is offensive; It’s object a, the transformative X of every scene containing Nute Gunray, Jar Jar and so on. The similarity to Cnut is that, again we’re dealing with the author-god.
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Feb 21, 2019 02:57
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sponges posted:True. The plot of the prequels only works if everyone is a malleable easily duped dummy. Yoda, Nute Gunray, Padme. Everyone! All victims of an old mans political machinations. Palpatine doesn't have to do much. Goad some malcontents into overplaying their grievances, make his alter ego look sympathetic when they do. The Republic was already the Empire and was already crumbling into autocracy; all he did was give it a little nudge so that he could make sure he was the one on top when it fell. The Trade Federation was already getting a raw deal on trade route taxation. The separatist systems were already fed up with the government. The Jedi were already serving as paramilitary enforces and recruiting by brainwashing children. The Republic was already tacitly condoning slavery. It's not that everyone else was just plain easily-manipulated; you have to consider the specific way that they were manipulated. Most often it was that they could not acknowledge the Republic's structural problems.
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Feb 21, 2019 02:58
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Bongo Bill posted:Palpatine doesn't have to do much. Goad some malcontents into overplaying their grievances, make his alter ego look sympathetic when they do. The Republic was already the Empire and was already crumbling into autocracy; all he did was give it a little nudge so that he could make sure he was the one on top when it fell. The Trade Federation was already getting a raw deal on trade route taxation. The separatist systems were already fed up with the government. The Jedi were already serving as paramilitary enforces and recruiting by brainwashing children. The Republic was already tacitly condoning slavery. A lot of this is spurious at best but it does nothing to dispel the notion that 3 loving movies watching dopes doing dopey things is tedious. Its so needlessly drawn out. It’s an Idiot Plot.
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Feb 21, 2019 03:10
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ruddiger posted:Pee Wee Herman and his supporting cast are the same types of personality, but their childish I don't think this take is particularly relevant because it essentially casts everything from Oswald the Lucky Rabbit to Pee Wee to Sponge Bob Square Pants as descendant from minstrel. But I will say is that when a character seems coded or rooted in Blackness or West Indian culture like many people read Jar Jar to be, I think there is a reason why his childlike nature can further rub people the wrong way. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 03:12
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brawleh posted:To summarise where Cease to Hope’s at, It’s that TPM as a work is perpetuating the prejudices of the hegemonic culture it’s a product of. So the turn towards objectification of those characters denoted as other; specifically by the particular feature of their accent is reinforced by some inherent characteristic that accent conveys. There is no inferiority inherent in a non-white accent. If all of the red costumes in your movie are worn by clowns, then it is correct to say your movie associated redness with being a clown. This does not mean that the quality of wearing red is what makes them a clown. All of the main characters of TPM with (imitation) nonwhite accents are incompetent and/or greedy, so much so that nearly every scene involving them revolves around their comical incompetence or greed. The movie therefore associates these accents with incompetence/greed. Associating these accents with incompetence and greed has a long, racist history and I am criticizing TPM for being the latest entry in that history. You can mangle my argument to make nonsensical straw arguments all you like, but it isn't a refutation of what I actually have to say. It especially isn't a refutation of what I have to say to once again resort to the "actually calling TPM racist means you are the real racist" canard, as you have once again done.
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Feb 21, 2019 03:14
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sponges posted:A lot of this is spurious at best but it does nothing to dispel the notion that 3 loving movies watching dopes doing dopey things is tedious. Its so needlessly drawn out. It’s an Idiot Plot. You're being too hard on yourself. I'd watch your biopic Cease to Hope posted:There is no inferiority inherent in a non-white accent. If all of the red costumes in your movie are worn by clowns, then it is correct to say your movie associated redness with being a clown. This does not mean that the quality of wearing red is what makes them a clown. Honestly if you don't see how brawleh, bongo, and smg are accurately summing up the actual form of your posts i think you need consider that maybe you're not doing a good job writing your ideas out
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Feb 21, 2019 03:23
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Cease to Hope posted:All of the main characters of TPM with (imitation) nonwhite accents are incompetent and/or greedy, so much so that nearly every scene involving them revolves around their comical incompetence or greed. you have to actually show this part to not look like an idiot. everything you've vomited forward is effortlessly shot down
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Feb 21, 2019 03:28
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