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Yaws posted:What the gently caress are you even talking about here? Aren't you a hugely right wing guy? Defending Armond White? And Liam Neesons recent racist outburst? As you know from following my posts for several years, I generally post criticism of centrist, center-right and right-wing ideologies from a leftist egalitarian standpoint.
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Feb 21, 2019 06:38
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can r2 even conceive of the concept of smell?
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Feb 21, 2019 06:45
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Cease to Hope is Cnut in the sense that Tattooine is Jakku.
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Feb 21, 2019 06:55
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:As you know from following my posts for several years, I generally post criticism of centrist, center-right and right-wing ideologies from a leftist egalitarian standpoint. You're an Armond White and Liam Neeson defender. I think your knowledge of left wing politics would fit on the head of a pin. You are empty.
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Feb 21, 2019 06:59
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Bongo Bill posted:SMG things Cease to Hope is a Cnut alt account. I don't know why. They don't have similar positions or styles at all.  Cnut is playing a caricature of prequel haters (of the worst kind) as some sort of weird forums revenge because he couldn’t handle being rightfully hasseled for the bizarre notion that racism against fictional characters is impossible. There’s about 300 new posts of you guys arguing with him again.
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Feb 21, 2019 07:14
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Slutitution posted:
you seem extremely cool and normal
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Feb 21, 2019 07:24
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Yaws posted:You're an Armond White and Liam Neeson defender. I think your knowledge of left wing politics would fit on the head of a pin. SMG is definitely one of the most consistent leftist posters on these forums. There was nothing "right wing" about his defense of Liam Neeson just as there wasn't anything anti-left about Liam Neeson's response to a crime being committed on his friend. I don't really want to resurrect the Liam Neeson discussion but since you brought it up, I gotta mention that it's extremely unfair how a lot of people rejected him as a racist without taking into account how a violent crime can affect a person, event if they weren't themselves the victim but just a friend or relative. It can cause PTSD or just an irrational emotional response, which in Liam Neeson's case apparently manifested as a desire to be attacked by a black person so he could kill them/hurt them. The idea arises from racial prejudice of course but was triggered by a traumatic event and Liam Neeson was apparently able to reflect on the absurdity and wrongness of the idea retrospect. I used to work as a crime victim counselor so I used to see this kind of irrational response regularly. It seriously troubles me how quickly Liam Neeson was labeled a racist without any regard to the psychology of crime victims. Now SMG was one of the few posters who actually thought of this when discussing Liam Neeson and you referring to it to label him a right winger or debase his knowledge of left wing politics is absurd and stupid.
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Feb 21, 2019 11:20
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And IIRC SMG's posting was less a defense of Neeson's fantasy than an acknowledgement that the same sort of racialized(overtly or otherwise) revenge fantasy is incredibly prevalent in American culture.
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Feb 21, 2019 13:03
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Yaws posted:You're an Armond White and Liam Neeson defender. I think your knowledge of left wing politics would fit on the head of a pin. It's pretty dishonest to call SMG right wing at the very least stop this
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Feb 21, 2019 13:56
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Bongo Bill posted:SMG things Cease to Hope is a Cnut alt account. I don't know why. They don't have similar positions or styles at all. Closer to Tezzor, I'd say, but minus the usual descent into apoplexy. So far. I've seen SMG refer to Cease as each, though; it's rhetorical shorthand.
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Feb 21, 2019 14:08
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One person made a “prequels are racist” aside and 4000 posts later we are no closer to consensus. Looking back on it the immediate response to CTHs (for lack of a better term) meltdown seems to have nailed it in one MonsieurChoc posted:Lol, there are no weird racist caricatures. None of them conform to the actual stereotypes except in extremely superficial ways used by internet people to make snarky comments. euphronius fucked around with this message at 14:18 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 14:11
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The problem isn't accents so much as what the accents are accompanying. An example outside of Star Wars would be the "Under the Sea" song from The Little Mermaid. There is no problem with the character of Sebastian having a West Indian accent. But when you have him singing a calypso song about how people on the shore work all the time while the fish play around all day--something that doesn't fully fit what we've seen in the film--it is taking this non-racial character of a crab and applying stereotypes of West Indian Blacks as lazy and work averse to the character. I think Jar-Jar is interesting because I don't think Best was really trying to go for a Caribbean/West Indian accent. When you really listen to Jar-Jar in general, he sounds more like a muppet than a human as opposed to Sebastian who has a very clear human accent that he is supposed to be portraying. I think the argument people were using for Gunray actually applies to Jar Jar--his accent is an alien one, not a human one. Whereas the idea of the Romanian/Thai accent doesn't really help the case for Gunray. Remember Lucas casts Christopher Lee who famously played both Dracula and Fu Manchu. Combining a Dracula accent with a Thai accent doesn't really persuade me to think Lucas wasn't going for a Manchu homage with Gunray albeit very superficially. I think for a lot of people there are a few elements that come together to really hurt Jar Jar: His broken English and use of words like "meesa," his submissive nature--He immediately tells the Jedi that he's their servant and does so happily even when the Jedi put his life in danger--and his bafoonish nature in general reminded folks of minstrel portrayals of Black people. It's also a matter of larger context. As I mentioned before, it's really hard to argue that Jabba's palace is not taking roots in racist media like The Sheik or other stories of Arab or Persian harems. It's been long pointed out that Lawrence of Arabia weighs heavily over Star Wars as a major influence. It's this influence that has made people raise their eyebrow at terms like "sand people" in a film that otherwise portrays all the humans on Tatooine as white Americans or Brits. Star Wars is working with dicey roots. It has a history of recycling racial stereotypes or making insensitive decisions. In Phantom Menace you have one character who at least has some roots to Fu Manchu, a subservient bafoon who speaks in broken English, and a greedy alien with a hooked nose who would in the next film grow a beard and wear a hat. It's coming from a series that has included harems and despite having a planet clearly rooted in Lucas's lover for Lawerence of Arabia cast the human inhabitants as either cowboys or Space American Graffiti characters while including violent and cowardly "Sand People." Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 15:15
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My first thread title. Thank you. Jar jar doesn’t speak in broken English. Also watto isn’t greedy and the hook nose is arguable since it isn’t his nose. I can sort of see that one tho if you just glance at him. euphronius fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 15:16
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Schwarzwald posted:I think Darth Maul came out pretty clean. Granted, he was killed,* but that wasn't really a consequence of his being a fool. He stood still while Obi-Wan flipped over him, turned on a lightsaber, and cut him in half. He could have done, like, anything to stop him, but he stood there for a couple of seconds just watching his attacker. He's not that smart. I mean, he even had the high ground.
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Feb 21, 2019 15:44
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Does the Darth Maul reveal at the end of Solo have any actual implication on the films, or is that in service of the EU shows I'm never going to watch?
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Feb 21, 2019 15:51
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:-The film does not directly depict any character as greedy, incompetent, or whatever. As numerous people have noted, those are your subjective value judgements. Jar Jar is depicted stepping in poo poo by accident. You concluded that he is bizarrely foolish - in a way somehow associated with his ethnicity. “Incompetent fool! This is a disastrous mistake!” For normal people, however, stepping in poo poo is not a disaster. It happens. This isn't how film works though. Yeah, in real life people step in poo poo, but if a film purposely shows a character stepping in poo poo there's no way you can discount that as without meaning?... to use a non-star wars example: if James Bond were a real person, he would have probably tripped on his own shoelaces at some point, which is normal; but they generally wouldn't show that in a James Bond film for obvious reasons; and if they did the obvious subtext would be "ah, he's losing his edge in this film."
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Feb 21, 2019 15:52
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Franchescanado posted:Does the Darth Maul reveal at the end of Solo have any actual implication on the films, or is that in service of the EU shows I'm never going to watch? I can't imagine how. It takes place 30 whatever years before events of the current trilogy, so the only way it could end up being relevant would be if they actually make an ongoing series out of the Young Han Solo Adventures. Maybe then Maul is featured as a villain in a future Solo sequel.
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Feb 21, 2019 16:05
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Polo-Rican posted:This isn't how film works though. Yeah, in real life people step in poo poo, but if a film purposely shows a character stepping in poo poo there's no way you can discount that as without meaning?... to use a non-star wars example: if James Bond were a real person, he would have probably tripped on his own shoelaces at some point, which is normal; but they generally wouldn't show that in a James Bond film for obvious reasons; and if they did the obvious subtext would be "ah, he's losing his edge in this film." Jar Jar is simply depicted as stepping in poo. You're free to craft a textually supported reading about what this may/may not mean
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Feb 21, 2019 16:05
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Franchescanado posted:Does the Darth Maul reveal at the end of Solo have any actual implication on the films, or is that in service of the EU shows I'm never going to watch? Not really. I imagine he was going to be used for a Solo sequel, or possibly a Qi'ra spinoff if she proved popular, but now neither is likely to ever happen. He was brought back in a TV show, and later killed by Obi-Wan on Tatooine in a different TV show. Ron Howard apparently just wanted a big reveal character for that scene, asked the canon guys for a list of who was alive for the time period of the movie, and picked Maul off that list because he thought it would be cool. Now it will just be a, "Oh, that's weird" moment for anyone who hasn't watched the shows.
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Feb 21, 2019 16:09
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Not to mention that in the exact same scene, R2 runs over poo themselves Also the context is Qui-Gon basically giving a version of "wretched hive of scum and villainy" spiel, to which Jar Jar says, "this is really, really bad" and then he steps in poo poo In the next scene, Qui-Gon is going to "step in it" too when he foolishly tries to mind trick a Watto-species
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Feb 21, 2019 16:11
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thrawn527 posted:Not really. I imagine he was going to be used for a Solo sequel, or possibly a Qi'ra spinoff if she proved popular, but now neither is likely to ever happen. That's exactly what I thought. Weird choice, Ron Howard!
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Feb 21, 2019 16:20
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Waffles Inc. posted:Not to mention that in the exact same scene, R2 runs over poo themselves Yeah I read it as foreshadowing the narrative.
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Feb 21, 2019 16:22
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The return of Maul was handled well in the t.v. show, I thought, aside from giving his brother a really dumb name. I think there could be an argument for bringing Maul back into the current timeline except that the average viewer really doesn't know him as anything but a silent henchman type. He was developed a lot more in the t.v. show but I don't think you can just throw him into a new movie as a mastermind Sith villain and expect people not to be a bit confused.
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Feb 21, 2019 16:23
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Dumb names work for Star Wars. I named my Star Wars rpg characters Max Renegade and Buster Starwolf.
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Feb 21, 2019 16:30
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Timeless Appeal posted:Combining a Dracula accent with a Thai accent doesn't really persuade me to think Lucas wasn't going for a Manchu homage with Gunray albeit very superficially. Here's the issue that's been hovering over everything: Fu Manchu is a great fuckin' character. He has an enduring appeal, which is why he appears (sometimes under different names) in Grindhouse, Iron Man 3, Black Dynamite, etc.. And the fun with the character is precisely that he is fully aware of the artifice, almost invariably an actor deliberately performing as this confrontational camp parody of orientalism. Iron Man 3 actually flubs it somewhat by making The Mandarin a sedate boring character, before revealing that he's just a cynical actor needing a paycheck. Where's the fun? Rob Zombie, on the other hand, absolutely nails it in his Werewolf Women of the S.S. short by literally writing onscreen that the character's name is not Fu Manchu but NICHOLAS CAGE AS FU MANCHU. With Phantom Menace, though, Lucas goes a different route and asks what might lead someone to dress like Ming The Mercilless unironically? And so he created Amidala, the elected Queen of Naboo.  ...and, to a lesser extent, Gunray. Polo-Rican posted:This isn't how film works though. Yeah, in real life people step in poo poo, but if a film purposely shows a character stepping in poo poo there's no way you can discount that as without meaning?... to use a non-star wars example: if James Bond were a real person, he would have probably tripped on his own shoelaces at some point, which is normal; but they generally wouldn't show that in a James Bond film for obvious reasons; and if they did the obvious subtext would be "ah, he's losing his edge in this film." Stepping in poo poo foreshadows the ending, when Jar Jar gets a gun stuck to his foot and it's revealed that he is actually miraculously lucky - and that he is able to accomplish similar feats to Jedi without any mutant superpowers. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 16:33
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MonsieurChoc posted:Dumb names work for Star Wars. Jimmy Two Lasers Tommy "The Hutt" Orion (He's called "The Hutt" because he's a real fatass)
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Feb 21, 2019 16:42
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RBA Starblade posted:Jimmy Two Lasers That's the stuff.
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Feb 21, 2019 16:44
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MonsieurChoc posted:Dumb names work for Star Wars. His brother's name was Savage Opress. In a world of dumb names...it certainly was one of them.
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Feb 21, 2019 16:51
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is savage oppress that much dumber a name than darth maul though
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Feb 21, 2019 16:52
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Darth is a title at least.
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Feb 21, 2019 16:53
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MonsieurChoc posted:Dumb names work for Star Wars. I DM'd a star war RPG campaign throughout a lot of undergrad and names were the most fun part Korokik Olmadan Arsu Pelor Yoss Mooks
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Feb 21, 2019 16:53
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Brother Entropy posted:is savage oppress that much dumber a name than darth maul though It wouldn't have been so bad if they didn't insist on pronouncing it like it's French or something, with the long a and the soft g. It's a dumb name, just own it.
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Feb 21, 2019 16:55
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Sauvage Oppress
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Feb 21, 2019 16:57
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Sausage Press
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Feb 21, 2019 16:59
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Ol savage is metal as hell tho He headbutts a girl with his antlers
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Feb 21, 2019 17:07
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euphronius posted:Also watto isn’t greedy and the hook nose is arguable since it isn’t his nose. I can sort of see that one tho if you just glance at him. watto is like a 'small business owner' and also a slaveowner, i'm gonna say he's greedy cause why not
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Feb 21, 2019 17:13
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Polo-Rican posted:This isn't how film works though. Yeah, in real life people step in poo poo, but if a film purposely shows a character stepping in poo poo there's no way you can discount that as without meaning?... to use a non-star wars example: if James Bond were a real person, he would have probably tripped on his own shoelaces at some point, which is normal; but they generally wouldn't show that in a James Bond film for obvious reasons; and if they did the obvious subtext would be "ah, he's losing his edge in this film." There's an entire episode in the second season of the Sopranos where Tony suffers from diarrhea-induced fever dreams. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nh_8s9Sa64
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Feb 21, 2019 17:54
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ruddiger posted:There's an entire episode in the second season of the Sopranos where Tony suffers from diarrhea-induced fever dreams. I don't know what point you're trying to prove, or disprove, but ok.
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Feb 21, 2019 18:05
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Here's the issue that's been hovering over everything: Fu Manchu is a great fuckin' character. He has an enduring appeal, which is why he appears (sometimes under different names) in Grindhouse, Iron Man 3, Black Dynamite, etc.. And the fun with the character is precisely that he is fully aware of the artifice, almost invariably an actor deliberately performing as this confrontational camp parody of orientalism. 1) The Christopher Lee films and take on the character are inherently racist because of Lee appearing in Yellow Face. 2) Fu Manchu definitely was not born out of irony or camp. That revision is silly and diminishes the discrimination faced by Asians in Europe and in North America during the last few centuries and how much Yellow Peril contributed to that. You're right that Manchu has an enduring appeal in the broader sense that he really is the fore-bearer to the idea of the modern notion of a supervillain. Removing the racial elements for a moment, he is what I think a lot of people imagine Professor Moriarty to be in the original Holmes novels. Most modern takes on the character are really a white Manchu more than they are Moriarty as originally depicted. Still man, saying "Fu Manchu is a great fuckin' character" is pretty extra. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Feb 21, 2019 |
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Feb 21, 2019 18:08
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Fu Manchu is a great fuckin' character. Having a normal one in the Star Wars thread, I see
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