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Randarkman posted:Not using the money to help people suffering from a humanitarian disaster is precisely what Maduro's government has been doing for years. so your logic is that maduro wasn't using what money he had to fix the situation, so the US can take so much money that the situation can't be fixed anymore, and this will have no effect on venezuela  also, apparently you're going to blame maduro for not fixing the country even though he doesn't have the money you concede he'd need to fix it quote:I believe the US, or more specifically Trump, cares about getting a foreign policy win by toppling Maduro's regime. It just so happens that doing this will likely be a net good for Venezuela, and one that can probably be accomplished without outright invasion and arming the death squads that so many here are constantly salivating over.  first of all, the trump administration is salivating over an outright invasion, not us. or did you not see what's been coming out of the US recently? second of all, where do you get that this will "likely" be a net good for venezuelans? In america's history of toppling regimes, how frequently has it turned out to the benefit of the people of that country? And why would you think that an incompetent fuckwit like trump would pull off regime change in a positive way when many more qualified US presidents absolutely loving failed at it?
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Feb 24, 2019 13:50
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Condiv posted:so your logic is that maduro wasn't using what money he had to fix the situation, so the US can take so much money that the situation can't be fixed anymore, and this will have no effect on venezuela Read up on what a splendid job Maduro and the PSUV has done fixing Venezueala's problems, which have been going on for years Condiv posted:first of all, the trump administration is salivating over an outright invasion, not us. or did you not see what's been coming out of the US recently? second of all, where do you get that this will "likely" be a net good for venezuelans? In america's history of toppling regimes, how frequently has it turned out to the benefit of the people of that country? And why would you think that an incompetent fuckwit like trump would pull off regime change in a positive way when many more qualified US presidents absolutely loving failed at it? I believe the toppling will be done almost exclusively by domestic forces. The majority of Venezuela's population would like to see Maduro and the PSUV go. That makes me think a regime change will be a good thing, a regime change carried out from within the country by domestic forces (the US's role is one of pressure and recognition, they did not create or direct any of the forces working against the regime). Anyway, I'm done arguing with you. And I think everyone reading the thread is done with us arguing as well as well. People with no personal stake in the situation going on and on never getting anywhere is exactly what's turned this thread to poo poo.
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Feb 24, 2019 14:17
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Randarkman posted:Read up on what a splendid job Maduro and the PSUV has done fixing Venezueala's problems, which have been going on for years And that changes the fact that the US has intentionally made those problems intractable how? quote:I believe the toppling will be done almost exclusively by domestic forces. The majority of Venezuela's population would like to see Maduro and the PSUV go. That makes me think a regime change will be a good thing, a regime change carried out from within the country by domestic forces (the US's role is one of pressure and recognition, they did not create or direct any of the forces working against the regime). You’ve already admitted the regime change is coming from outside the country (the US) and not from within. Remember, that’s the whole point of the “give guaido aid instead of the UN/red cross” plan?
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Feb 24, 2019 14:22
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Mozi posted:Maybe when you grow up and get out of the fifth grade you will appreciate how the world is not perfectly black and white lol yes it is, either you're bad or your not, there is no maybe. but hey, considering the twits chuck's posted recently i'm sure we'll get to see all the shades of gray of bolton and abrams, as they make sure the ~good guys~ win by being responsibe for a million deaths
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Feb 24, 2019 14:32
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Condiv posted:And that changes the fact that the US has intentionally made those problems intractable how? All you've got are "gotchas". If it will make you leave in triumph, then okay you got me. Now go eat a burger to celebrate. We're done.
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Feb 24, 2019 14:34
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Posted for the video not the tweet comment https://twitter.com/garoukike/status/1099422202561204224
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Feb 24, 2019 14:36
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brugroffil posted:Posted for the video not the tweet comment Regardless the guy who made that twitter comment probably probably fails to realize that that probably reflects more on the reluctance of the Venezuelan police than Maduro's benevolence.
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Feb 24, 2019 14:42
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Truga posted:lol yes it is, either you're bad or your not, there is no maybe. Pretty much everyone is bad in various ways. The writing has been on the wall for Maduro for a while now. It's a mistake for the US to get visibly involved but to start cheering on Maduro because of that is a dumb mistake as well - better of course would have been a regional response out of consideration of the US' history in South America. As I said earlier we should be hoping for a minimum of chaos, as the world never ceases to plumb new depths of stupidity and awfulness. But you just seem blind and dumb, really.
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Feb 24, 2019 14:46
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Mozi posted:Pretty much everyone is bad in various ways. The writing has been on the wall for Maduro for a while now. It's a mistake for the US to get visibly involved but to start cheering on Maduro because of that is a dumb mistake as well - better of course would have been a regional response out of consideration of the US' history in South America. As I said earlier we should be hoping for a minimum of chaos, as the world never ceases to plumb new depths of stupidity and awfulness. Mind you, the region does presently include people like Bolsonaro, so that wasn't much of an option either.
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Feb 24, 2019 14:47
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Mozi posted:Pretty much everyone is bad in various ways. Congratulations, you figured it out! The solution to our problems isn't to make things "less bad" it's to make things "better", even "good". You don't make things "good" by compromising with nazis.
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Feb 24, 2019 14:49
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Truga posted:lol yes it is, either you're bad or your not, there is no maybe. --George W. Bush
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Feb 24, 2019 14:49
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Truga posted:Congratulations, you figured it out! The solution to our problems isn't to make things "less bad" it's to make things "better", even "good". You don't make things "good" by compromising with nazis. But what if pretty much all the significant power-players in a humanitarian crisis are various flavours of fash?
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Feb 24, 2019 14:51
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https://twitter.com/ciccmaher/status/1099461899819855872 When even a ford and rockefeller foundation paid stooge like GCM is calling you out for astroturfing a casus belli.
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Feb 24, 2019 14:52
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Condiv posted:i'm not the one rooting for us military intervention or us coups Do you know the councilor from the red cross that said US aid is politicized has been receiving bribes from the kremlin? Maybe that might affect how he sees the idea of Venezuela receiving aid from America
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Feb 24, 2019 14:52
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:https://twitter.com/ciccmaher/status/1099461899819855872 That guy has been shilling for Chavismo for more than a decade.
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Feb 24, 2019 14:54
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Darth Walrus posted:But what if pretty much all the significant power-players in a humanitarian crisis are various flavours of fash? Someone accidentally did the needful and distributed guns to thousands of people a few weeks ago and is intending to arm like a third of the population by june IIRC. Fash will only stay in power as long as people let it. There's absolutely no reason for an intervention IMO.
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Feb 24, 2019 14:59
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zapplez posted:Do you know the councilor from the red cross that said US aid is politicized has been receiving bribes from the kremlin? Maybe that might affect how he sees the idea of Venezuela receiving aid from America cool, red scare 2 and advocacy for us military intervention all in one thread
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Feb 24, 2019 14:59
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zapplez posted:Do you know the councilor from the red cross that said US aid is politicized has been receiving bribes from the kremlin? Maybe that might affect how he sees the idea of Venezuela receiving aid from America Or, you know, being lead by actual criminal Elliott Abrams. And that whole Trump cabinet boasting and salivating about going to war with Venezuela for years.
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Feb 24, 2019 15:13
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:https://twitter.com/ciccmaher/status/1099461899819855872 You do realize in poor countries people have jugs of water that are opaque right? This doesn't prove anything.
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Feb 24, 2019 15:16
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Condiv posted:cool, red scare 2 and advocacy for us military intervention all in one thread So accepting russian bribes for NGO's is no big deal. Cool. This is the same Russia that already sent thousands of troops to protect Maduro in country.
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Feb 24, 2019 15:17
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zapplez posted:So accepting russian bribes for NGO's is no big deal. Cool. more like anyone who says something you disagree with is a russian asset to you quote:Alexandra Boivin, ICRC delegation head for the United States and Canada, said Friday that the ICRC had told U.S. officials that whatever plans “they have to help the people of Venezuela, it has to be shielded from this political conversation.” clearly both of these people have been bribed by russia, and maybe even the red cross as a whole! Condiv fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Feb 24, 2019 |
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Feb 24, 2019 15:22
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everyone demanding daddy trump to come and bomb everyone: brave, honest, fighting for truth everyone doubting the intentions of the US or the purity of the coup leader: brainwashed maduro propagandist, probably russian
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Feb 24, 2019 15:24
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thousands of Russian troops?!
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Feb 24, 2019 15:26
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Big K of Justice posted:Do you know what's better than an aircraft carrier group? An island. sure, lemme know when the US starts forward-basing F-15s and F-16s there, along with the required stores of fuel, parts, and ammunition. Carriers are the fastest, most effective way for the US to get a lot of planes and a lot of ordnance into most of the world, which is why I pointed towards them. If a direct military intervention is coming, then expect to see a carrier off the coast or an additional carrier to leave port. As to general US involvement in Venezuela, literally nobody thinks that the Trump administration is supporting the opposition out of the goodness of their hearts. What the US wants out of this is, of course, fair to speculate about-my own guess is that the opposition sold them on Maduro's government being a house of cards, and that supporting the opposition's actions would be a quick, easy, and cheap way to get a big foreign policy win (which the administration is desperate to achieve) while also putting into power a government that wasn't openly hostile to investment from US companies (most importantly oil). Of course, this all hinged on the military capitulating quickly and easily, and since it hasn't both the opposition and the US have been scrambling to find ways to put pressure on Maduro's government to convince them that, no, really, you're supposed to step down, with increasing amounts of bluster that the US may or may not be willing to actually back up with force. My gut feeling is that even as the rhetoric ramps up, the opposition is banking on the military flipping before any actual bloodshed occurs, but they've got a history of badly misjudging their actual situation and the willingness of the PSUV to do anything to hold on to power, so this could very easily go badly if the US decides to go 'gently caress it,' the regime decides to start truly cracking down, or if the people get tired of the opposition's ineffectiveness and decide to take matters into their own hands.
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Feb 24, 2019 15:40
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Speaking of taking matters into their own hands https://twitter.com/garoukike/status/1099679209117630467
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Feb 24, 2019 15:43
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What is this “distributed guns week ago” claim?
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Feb 24, 2019 15:50
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Mozi posted:Maybe when you grow up and get out of the fifth grade you will appreciate how the world is not perfectly black and white, that not everybody who disagrees with you is a moron and may in fact have a more nuanced understanding of reality that Mozi posted:Pretty much everyone is bad in various ways.
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Feb 24, 2019 15:53
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Bob le Moche posted:Giant nuanced brain over here, not afraid to tell it like it is to the simpletons I mean he's gotta do something for your benefit.
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Feb 24, 2019 16:00
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Thank you, I did not have the privilege of getting my entire political education from the TV show South Park
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Feb 24, 2019 16:10
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zapplez posted:Don't you think Venezuela has a better chance of recovery after a regime change because the country was ran well as little as 10 years ago? Compared to Iraq and Libya which were hell holes for years and years. gently caress off
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Feb 24, 2019 16:27
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Randarkman posted:I mean he's gotta do something for your benefit. tell us about how inviting abrams in is probably for the country's net good again, it has been far, far too long since we got an earnest Goon Foretells Good Times Post US Regime Change will maduro burn the oil fields?
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Feb 24, 2019 17:01
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zapplez posted:Don't you think Venezuela has a better chance of recovery after a regime change because the country was ran well as little as 10 years ago? Compared to Iraq and Libya which were hell holes for years and years. No, because removing Maduro doesn't magically make oil prices rise, nor does it make Venezuela less dependent on foreign currency to import food. What WOULD happen is Venezuela would sell off its aging oil infrastructure for pennies on the dollar to pay off its debts, which would leave it poorer in the long run.
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Feb 24, 2019 17:05
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Discendo Vox posted:What is this “distributed guns week ago” claim? https://twitter.com/Jake_Hanrahan/status/1093467453168988161 the regime goal is, allegedly, to arm a third of the population by summer, which is an ideal situation for the regime to fall real quick lmao Truga fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Feb 24, 2019 |
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Feb 24, 2019 17:08
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Acebuckeye13 posted:
My guess is that the expectation on the US side was for things to go mostly like they went in Ukraine, with Maduro going into exile after enough diplomatic and domestic pressure is applied, and a complaint new government being sworn in.
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Feb 24, 2019 17:09
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Truga posted:the regime goal is, allegedly, to arm a third of the population by summer, which is an ideal situation for the regime to fall real quick lmao I am wondering about this as well because according to this answer I got from Chuck Boone, those people are considered "too far gone", and "die-hards who are beyond help", who are unlikely to turn on the PSUV; and the hope is that they just melt away after the coup instead of waging any kind of guerilla resistance to the new government: Chuck Boone posted:I think that the general perception is that the colectivos will be the last to abandon Maduro because they are either die-hards who are beyond help, or mercenaries who will do their thing as long as the government is paying them. This is opposed to the general perception of the army, which I think sees rank-and-file soldiers as ordinary Venezuelans who suffer just as much as anyone else, but who just happen to be in uniform. This make it much easier to appeal to soldiers than to colectivo members. Or are these people's militia unit a new institution separate from the colectivos?
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Feb 24, 2019 17:22
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Bob le Moche posted:Or are these people's militia unit a new institution separate from the colectivos? Wasn't that obvious?
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Feb 24, 2019 17:25
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Pomp posted:gently caress off  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 24, 2019 17:25
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lol (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 24, 2019 17:27
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gently caress off with your PM drama.
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Feb 24, 2019 17:36
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Bob le Moche posted:Or are these people's militia unit a new institution separate from the colectivos? Does it matter? Having a couple thousand dudes with rifles is one thing, having millions of duders armed is completely different. https://www.apnews.com/ef6d650b2e494dd5bca3adc6208c3a7a "Maduro spoke before a gathering of troops Tuesday and set a new goal of expanding Venezuela’s civilian armed militia to 2 million members by mid-April." There's no way to rule over millions of armed people if they don't want to be ruled. Seeing how Maduro apparently can't even feed his army, how is he gonna feed a far larger militia. They're gonna revolt as soon as he looks at them funny.
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Feb 24, 2019 17:39
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