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FrangibleCover posted:People have dealt with other bits of your question but I'm going to pick this out. Repulse was not only not the most modern battleship in the fleet but not a battleship at all, but that's a nitpick. Originally Force Z was supposed to include Indomitable to provide organic air cover but she ran aground in the Caribbean and was unavailable. The rest of Britain's fleet carriers were all engaged in an immediate fight for national survival against countries that Britain was actually at war with and couldn't be detached to posture against a hypothetical Japanese attack. Hermes was also on her way but doesn't seem to have arrived in time, so air cover for Force Z was supposed to be provided by the Buffalos of the RAF. That didn't work out in the end but I think it's probably silly to say that the Navy that invented the torpedo bomber, scored the first ever dive-bombing kill on a ship and had already crippled a battleship and a heavy cruiser at sea in air attacks was unaware of the potential risk to battleships operating without air cover. Three's a couple of mistakes here. Firstly, the RN during WWII did not draw a large distinction between the battlecruiser and battleship. Both were considered 'Capital Ships', and were seen as being capable of carrying out the same duties. While Repulse had been built as a battlecruiser, by WWII, it is fair to consider her a battleship. She definitely wasn't modern, having not been modernised like her sister ship, though. Secondly, while it's a common claim that Indomitable was intended to form part of Force Z, this is incorrect. Indomitable never received any such orders, and even if she had, she could not have been in Malaya in early December without cutting short her planned work-up in Jamaica. When Indomitable completed her repairs after running aground, she was sent back to the Caribbean to work up, rather than being sent to join the Eastern Fleet, as would be expected if she had originally been planned to join it. There's no evidence in RN records that Indomitable was intended to join Force Z or the Eastern Fleet, and discussions between Phillips and Admiral Hart of the US Eastern Fleet on the 6th December 1941 contain no indication that Phillips expected Indomitable to join him. Churchill did advocate for a carrier to be sent eastwards with Force Z, and there may have been informal discussions on the topic, but there's no evidence of concrete plans to send a carrier east in the second half of 1941.
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Feb 26, 2019 18:36
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Cyrano4747 posted:It’s just idiocy all the way down wrapped in a patina of noble sacrifice by the dulce et decorum crowd. ok like how familiar with brits are you
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Feb 26, 2019 18:46
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GUYS i found a solution to our job problems https://twitter.com/ElegantiaeArbit/status/1100385063609487360
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Feb 26, 2019 19:29
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HEY GUNS posted:GUYS
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Feb 26, 2019 19:36
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Roving bands of academics, seizing strategic tweed reserves and citing primary sources at non-combatants so aggressively as to violate of all norms and rules of war. Try them in the Hague[1][2][3][4], I say
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Feb 26, 2019 19:42
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so bandits are huge nerds? Got it.
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Feb 26, 2019 19:45
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HEY GUNS posted:GUYS https://twitter.com/WAWilsonIV/status/1087196946371145728
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Feb 26, 2019 19:55
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Meng Haigong: "The Geneva convention requires that one aim .50 caliber firearms at the enemy's belt buckle, as they are only permissable as anti-materiel weapons" Everyone itt: 
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Feb 26, 2019 20:08
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as soon as the modern university is invented people start bitching about how there are too many students and no good jobs
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Feb 26, 2019 20:13
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there are no good jobs, anywhere, ever
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Feb 26, 2019 20:23
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zoux posted:https://twitter.com/johncarlbaker/status/1100441685895585792 Will let us finally stop airing MASH reruns.
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Feb 26, 2019 20:57
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Epicurius posted:Will let us finally stop airing MASH reruns.
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Feb 26, 2019 21:00
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HEY GUNS posted:hey you're talking about my junior high afternoons there, buddy I thought junior high afternoons were for jockeying for position on top of a pile of human skulls. Why yes, I had a horrible time back then!
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Feb 26, 2019 21:10
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HEY GUNS posted:hey you're talking about my junior high afternoons there, buddy I dont know what I watched junior high afternoons. Ducktales, I think.
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Feb 26, 2019 21:11
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Randomcheese3 posted:Three's a couple of mistakes here. Firstly, the RN during WWII did not draw a large distinction between the battlecruiser and battleship. Both were considered 'Capital Ships', and were seen as being capable of carrying out the same duties. While Repulse had been built as a battlecruiser, by WWII, it is fair to consider her a battleship. She definitely wasn't modern, having not been modernised like her sister ship, though. quote:Secondly, while it's a common claim that Indomitable was intended to form part of Force Z, this is incorrect. Indomitable never received any such orders, and even if she had, she could not have been in Malaya in early December without cutting short her planned work-up in Jamaica. When Indomitable completed her repairs after running aground, she was sent back to the Caribbean to work up, rather than being sent to join the Eastern Fleet, as would be expected if she had originally been planned to join it. There's no evidence in RN records that Indomitable was intended to join Force Z or the Eastern Fleet, and discussions between Phillips and Admiral Hart of the US Eastern Fleet on the 6th December 1941 contain no indication that Phillips expected Indomitable to join him. Churchill did advocate for a carrier to be sent eastwards with Force Z, and there may have been informal discussions on the topic, but there's no evidence of concrete plans to send a carrier east in the second half of 1941. zoux posted:Meng Haigong: "The Geneva convention requires that one aim .50 caliber firearms at the enemy's belt buckle, as they are only permissable as anti-materiel weapons" Meng Haigong: "Katanas were considerably superior to any European sword of the period and Japanese Samurai could easily have beaten European armies in the early 1600s."
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Feb 26, 2019 21:27
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:I thought junior high afternoons were for jockeying for position on top of a pile of human skulls. Why yes, I had a horrible time back then! yes, yes, we all played warhammer
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Feb 26, 2019 21:31
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Listening to the Tides of History podcast episodes on the War of the Roses and holy poo poo, I knew George RR Martin was 'inspired' by the war, but even beyond changing 'Lancaster' to 'Lannister' he really lazily ripped off a bunch of events of the period wholesale.
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Feb 26, 2019 21:54
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BalloonFish posted:I have to agree. I think I've mentioned in a previous Mk. of this thread that my grandfather lost one of his best friends on the Rawalpindi - the friend was a marine engineer in civilian life and a Royal Naval Reservist who was called up and made a Probationary Acting Sub-Lieutenant (E), RNR. He and my grandfather did their mobilisation training together before he went to the Rawalpindi and my grandfather went off to do the RNVR course on 'how to be a naval officer in eight weeks'. He was still at HMS King Alfred when the Rawalpindi was sunk. He said that he found it really hard to square the propaganda and the heroism he felt he should be celebrating with the feeling that he had lost a close friend in an entirely futile gesture which did nothing but rob the country of 240-odd trained sailors and a sorely-needed convoy escort ship. And of course voicing that opinion, especially in the RN at the time, or for several years afterwards, would not have been taken well... Now if you want to talk about a small ship charging a big ship in a way that is  as gently caress and had real results check out USS Laffey (DD-459). During the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal she got into a point blank night time duel with the Japanese BB Hiei. Her guns couldn’t do gently caress all to Hiei’s armor but she lit the super structure on fire, which drew the gunfire of the whole American fleet. Hiei ended up crippled as a result and was sunk by airplanes the next day. Laffey was killed in return. She got stupid close to the Heie and officers on her bridge were observed shooting at the Japanese ship with their .45s. If you want an insane charge into death that makes naval officers go misty eyed but ALSO accomplished something it’s hard to beat lighting a ship ten times yours size on fire, leading to its ultimate destruction, while taking pot shots at it with loving pistols. Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Feb 26, 2019 |
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Feb 26, 2019 22:00
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:Listening to the Tides of History podcast episodes on the War of the Roses and holy poo poo, I knew George RR Martin was 'inspired' by the war, but even beyond changing 'Lancaster' to 'Lannister' he really lazily ripped off a bunch of events of the period wholesale. Like what
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Feb 26, 2019 22:03
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Cyrano4747 posted:Now if you want to talk about a small ship charging a big ship in a way that is Well, also Battle off Samar.
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Feb 26, 2019 22:08
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zoux posted:Like what The "Battle of Blackwater" is basically one of the Rus invasions of Constantinople, right down to the hulk filled with Greek fire.
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Feb 26, 2019 22:37
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zoux posted:Like what I guess one of the big ones is the Or when Richard III losing the Battle of Bosworth field because he was betrayed at the last minute by Plus Robert Baratheon's whole "Young handsome king wins his crown on the field of battle, then drinks and fucks himself into an oversized grave leading to another civil war" is literally Edward IV. Like it's not exact yeah, but it's some heavy influence. Mr Luxury Yacht fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Feb 26, 2019 |
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Feb 26, 2019 22:45
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Cyrano4747 posted:Now if you want to talk about a small ship charging a big ship in a way that is Makes the end of saving private Ryan look a little quaint tbh
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Feb 26, 2019 22:57
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sullat posted:The "Battle of Blackwater" is basically one of the Rus invasions of Constantinople, right down to the hulk filled with Greek fire. drat the War of the Roses got real far south. Mr Luxury Yacht posted:I guess one of the big ones is the Also white walkers are clearly meant to be the Scots.
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Feb 26, 2019 23:08
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:Listening to the Tides of History podcast episodes on the War of the Roses and holy poo poo, I knew George RR Martin was 'inspired' by the war, but even beyond changing 'Lancaster' to 'Lannister' he really lazily ripped off a bunch of events of the period wholesale. Got to save brain space for rape scenes and feasts.
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Feb 26, 2019 23:21
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zoux posted:Like what The way everyone speaks English in a medieval setting is an obvious clue that these are medieval Englishmen.
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Feb 26, 2019 23:55
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:Plus Robert Baratheon's whole "Young handsome king wins his crown on the field of battle, then drinks and fucks himself into an oversized grave leading to another civil war" is literally Edward IV. When I was listening to this same podcast I thought this comparison was overblown; Edward IV was described as a competent leader even if he did party way too hard, and Robert is shown as basically completely ineffectual.
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Feb 27, 2019 00:15
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FrangibleCover posted:Interesting stuff. I've also heard claims that Illustrious was earmarked for Eastern Fleet service but that doesn't seem to stand up to scrutiny either. It makes sense, carriers were rare and valuable in 1941 and every one of them available was needed at home or in the Med. I'm always a little surprised that Prince of Wales got sent, frankly. It was always planned to send Illustrious and Formidable back to the Mediterranean once their repairs were complete, which isn't surprising. Had Ark Royal not been sunk, though, there's some evidence that she would have been sent to the Far East in April 1942, following a planned refit in the US.
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Feb 27, 2019 00:20
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zoux posted:Also white walkers are clearly meant to be the Scots. Makes sense the white walkers never seem to reach the wall then. Too busy killing each other, getting stuck in latrines, getting blown up (literally two Stuart kings died by being blown up. OK one was a King-Consort and he might have been strangled after surviving getting blown up, but still), settling legal disputes with private armies, and generally doing a whole bunch of crazy late-medieval Scottish stuff. There was a solid two centuries during which a Scottish monarch didn't die in their bed.
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Feb 27, 2019 00:35
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zoux posted:https://twitter.com/johncarlbaker/status/1100441685895585792 It needs to be taken up with the UN security council.
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Feb 27, 2019 00:49
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is the red wedding riffing off the St Bartholomew day's massacre or are the similarities not that strong? there's a marriage and betrayal and slaughter
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Feb 27, 2019 01:11
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oystertoadfish posted:is the red wedding riffing off the St Bartholomew day's massacre or are the similarities not that strong? there's a marriage and betrayal and slaughter HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Feb 27, 2019 |
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Feb 27, 2019 01:16
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oystertoadfish posted:is the red wedding riffing off the St Bartholomew day's massacre or are the similarities not that strong? there's a marriage and betrayal and slaughter I think it's based on the Black Dinner. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Douglas#Black_Dinner
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Feb 27, 2019 01:29
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what are some good podcasts that talk about WW2 naval battles? also good audio books of the same?
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Feb 27, 2019 01:37
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Tythas posted:what are some good podcasts that talk about WW2 naval battles? also good audio books of the same? Neptune's Inferno has a audobook IIRC. quote:Astern of the Portland, the Helena was worked up to a servo-mechanical rage with her six-inch main battery, targeting a searchlight just forty-two hundred yards to her west. It must have belonged to the Hiei; it appeared too high and large to belong to a destroyer. The officer in a spotting station high overhead reported that the tracers were perfectly aimed in deflection and that “practically all of our shots appeared to hit.” One of her turret officers, Lieutenant Earl A. Luehman, observed, “The tracers from fifteen guns looked like a swarm of bees heading for a target you couldn’t see.” Cycling rapidly with the firing keys closed, the ship’s broadside was like a gigantic combustion engine with mistimed pistons. Nodding up and down, driven by their director-controlled motors, the guns laid a “rocking ladder” of fire across a two-hundred-yard-long path centered on the range given by the radar. No ship, no matter how stout its armor, would want to be in the path of what she was sending out: more than two hundred 130-pound shells per minute, according to Bin Cochran. As the Helena reached the turning point for the left column turn, the light that her gunners were shooting at faded to black. The superstructure of the enemy ship was a “smoky orange bonfire,” Chick Morris recalled. “How high into the sky that tower of flame extended, no one can say, but the brightness of it was unbelievable.” quote:With Cassin Young designating targets for the gunnery officer, Lieutenant Commander William W. Wilbourne, McCandless swung the helm left to unmask the after turret. As the San Francisco’s eight-inch turrets roared, the Hiei’s great turrets answered in kind. “Two four-gun salvos hit the water short of us, bursting on impact and projecting vivid greenish pyrotechnics—incendiaries,” McCandless wrote. Wilbourne had little more to do than close his firing key and pray. In close and brutally fast was his only chance, given that his salvos had 20 percent the throw-weight of her enemy. “Had anyone timed our loading crews that night, he doubtless would have seen some new records set.” The crew of the San Francisco’s turret three was operating in local control after the destruction of the after control station by the Betty that afternoon. From twenty-two hundred yards, it was hard to miss. The San Francisco lashed out with all three turrets, battering the Hiei all along her length. The turret officer in turret one shouted over the voice tube to his crew, “We just put a nine-gun salvo into the side of a Jap BB!” At this range not even a battleship’s armor was proof against cruiser fire. The San Francisco would claim “at least eighteen hits” on the Hiei. From amidships, near the Hiei’s waterline, came a blast that “caused plates and wreckage to fly about,” the San Francisco’s action report would state. Stationed on a five-inch mount on the starboard side of the San Francisco, Cliff Spencer was awestruck. “With a pagoda-like superstructure, the big ship was so close she looked like the New York skyline. As our stream of shells hit, you could see men or debris flying off the [searchlight] platform, it was that close.… When my vision returned I looked out upon the battle scene to starboard.… The magnitude of the battle was almost unbelievable.” quote:The action was more cinematically enthralling for the young men watching from Guadalcanal’s northern shore. It was a diversion from their life in a diseased, death-ridden combat zone. As far away as Aola Bay, almost fifty miles east of Savo Sound, “The concussion could be felt as it came in on the airways, and the explosions seemed to rock the ground under our feet,” recalled a U.S. Army infantryman on Guadalcanal. “One could see the bellows of black smoke over the battle scene, shooting high into the air; at night these smoke clouds were capped with red flames.”
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Feb 27, 2019 04:09
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C.M. Kruger posted:Neptune's Inferno has a audobook IIRC. Audible has Neptune's Inferno AND Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors, both of which I whole heartedly recommend.
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Feb 27, 2019 04:24
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Epicurius posted:Will let us finally stop airing MASH reruns. Calling my rep to vote no.
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Feb 27, 2019 04:24
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oystertoadfish posted:is the red wedding riffing off the St Bartholomew day's massacre or are the similarities not that strong? there's a marriage and betrayal and slaughter No. The St. Bartholomew massacres were more like the Rwandan genocide than anything that happened on That One TV Show.
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Feb 27, 2019 07:20
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Yeah as others agree, the HMS Rawalpindi was just dumb as all hell. In case of USS Laffey, the ordered action was a military necessity, and it’s tough poo poo for all the sailors. But this brit one could’ve ended up as a surrender, as the German’s offered Surrender, become prisoner, hang out for couple years, and then get to home. I’d be pissed as all hell as some sailor in the gun ”turret” as my ships steams against two capital ships in a total suicide attempt and I have to die simply for some old coot’s delusions. It’s a forced kamikaze basically.
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Feb 27, 2019 11:26
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Randomcheese3 posted:It was always planned to send Illustrious and Formidable back to the Mediterranean once their repairs were complete, which isn't surprising. Had Ark Royal not been sunk, though, there's some evidence that she would have been sent to the Far East in April 1942, following a planned refit in the US. When I found out Churchill offered Illustrious in addition to Vicky for the Pacific on 2 Dec. 1942, I wondered if anything noticeably different would have happened in the Pacific. I wasn't able to come up with much of anything. Maybe a night carrier raid on Rabaul. What can y'all come up with? Feel free to note effects on Sicily/Salerno.
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Feb 27, 2019 13:48
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