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Pharohman777 posted:You are literally saying that because the US was asked for help, regardless of any factors like the situation in Venezuela, the state of the national assembly, or years of rejection of humanitarian aid, Maduro's government becomes good and legitimate because they are opposed to the US and Donald Trump. i wouldn't say that maduro's government is good. however, it's fairly obvious that the trump administration's designs for venezuela are not going to make things better, and considering the opposition have tied themselves to his administration, we have to take that into account
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Mar 3, 2019 01:11
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Condiv posted:he's pretty drat relevant to the situation when his administration is intentionally worsening the situation in venezuela. dunno why you guys keep trying to pretend he's irrelevant Do you seriously think politics is as simple as 'allied with US in a trump presidency=evil'?
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Mar 3, 2019 01:14
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Pharohman777 posted:Trump is not relavent in that he does not suddenly turn the national assembly into some evil puppet and erase all the struggles of the Venezuelan people and Maduro's abuses of power just because he is on the side of the national assembly. yes i think allying with the country intentionally worsening the crises of your country is evil. and i know that trump is evil, that's why abrams is in charge of the venezuelan coup
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Mar 3, 2019 01:16
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also, i'd like to add that i think it's evil to ally yourself with a country that is currently slobbering over the idea of going to war with your own. especially when said country is renowned for sky-high civilian casualties and bombing msf hospitals and poo poo on a good day, and it's currently a bad day
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Mar 3, 2019 01:25
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Condiv posted:also, i'd like to add that i think it's evil to ally yourself with a country that is currently slobbering over the idea of going to war with your own. especially when said country is renowned for sky-high civilian casualties and bombing msf hospitals and poo poo on a good day, and it's currently a bad day So everyone who supports the national assembly in this thread should be supporting maduro by your reasoning, correct?
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Mar 3, 2019 01:53
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Pharohman777 posted:So everyone who supports the national assembly in this thread should be supporting maduro by your reasoning, correct? Thinking Maduro's a piece of poo poo and the USA having evil foreign policy are not mutually exclusive ideas why is this so hard for you
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Mar 3, 2019 01:58
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Pharohman777 posted:So everyone who supports the national assembly in this thread should be supporting maduro by your reasoning, correct? no. they just shouldn't be supporting the american-backed opposition. this isn't hard, you make it hard
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Mar 3, 2019 01:59
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The problem is they're saying Maduro's rule is legitimate, and their only rationale is to suddenly shift the topic to the US. The US is the only entity with agency, the sole source of moral reasoning: whatever the US does, it must be evil and absolutely unequivocally wrong. Nothing else matters.
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Mar 3, 2019 01:59
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Discendo Vox posted:whatever the US does, it must be evil and absolutely unequivocally wrong. This has been true since before the US was even a nation state. The US is nazi germany that won the war.
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Mar 3, 2019 02:03
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Condiv posted:no. they just shouldn't be supporting the american-backed opposition. this isn't hard, you make it hard So don't support anyone, and just allow the status quo of people fleeing the country as it's citizens starve to exist?
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Mar 3, 2019 02:04
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Condiv posted:them running to trump and pence is a pretty clear signal they're not on the right side of this conflict Much better to be on the side of russia,china and north korea.
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Mar 3, 2019 02:06
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Discendo Vox posted:The problem is they're saying Maduro's rule is legitimate, and their only rationale is to suddenly shift the topic to the US. The US is the only entity with agency, the sole source of moral reasoning: whatever the US does, it must be evil and absolutely unequivocally wrong. Nothing else matters. the US got abrams involved. so yes, what they're doing is evil. and what agency does the opposition have? they have no power, their only support is rooted in the US, etc
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Mar 3, 2019 02:06
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Pharohman777 posted:So don't support anyone, and just allow the status quo of people fleeing the country as it's citizens starve to exist? Lifting sanctions and drafting our chattering classes for labor battalions to rebuild their oil infrastructure would be a good first step. zapplez posted:Much better to be on the side of russia,china and north korea. Russia, China, and NK have not intervened over 100 times in latin america to install right wing dictatorships, why should it be surprising that China now does more trade with the continent's nations than the US? CAPS LOCK BROKEN fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Mar 3, 2019 |
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Mar 3, 2019 02:06
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Pharohman777 posted:So don't support anyone, and just allow the status quo of people fleeing the country as it's citizens starve to exist? every loving shitlib disingenuous interventionist play trotted out
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Mar 3, 2019 02:09
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Pharohman777 posted:So don't support anyone, and just allow the status quo of people fleeing the country as it's citizens starve to exist? actually, i support aid via the UN, lifting of the sanctions and returning of money needed to lift venezuela out of the crises it faces, and accepting venezuelans as refugees. so no, not the status quo zapplez posted:Much better to be on the side of russia,china and north korea. weren't you the guy who claimed the red cross was under the thumb of the kgb?
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Mar 3, 2019 02:09
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Local American grapples with idea that sometimes the US doesn't need to get involved in a country's internal power struggles
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Mar 3, 2019 02:09
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Pharohman777 posted:So everyone who supports the national assembly in this thread should be supporting maduro by your reasoning, correct? The 2 sides are really "maduro must go at any cost" and "the US must not get bloody at any cost". You're already at a point of fully supporting making the humanitarian crisis way worse for everyday Venezuelans simply as an act of leverage. At the end of the day if it comes down to maduro stays in power, or the US invades, you're going to side with a US military invasion. Other people remember Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan etc, and decide "no lovely leader is worth that human cost".
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Mar 3, 2019 02:12
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Condiv posted:the US got abrams involved. so yes, what they're doing is evil. and what agency does the opposition have? they have no power, their only support is rooted in the US, etc So you are illiterate then, if you keep missing why the opposition has no power because you never ever read the many, many explanations we give, and the one in the op.
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Mar 3, 2019 02:14
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Condiv posted:actually, i support aid via the UN, lifting of the sanctions and returning of money needed to lift venezuela out of the crises it faces, and accepting venezuelans as refugees. so no, not the status quo Its actually the UN spokeperson that was taking bribes from the kremlin, the same one that said recently to stay hands off in Venezuela. https://www.unwatch.org/russia-gave-50000-un-expert-wrote-report-calling-russia-victim/
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Mar 3, 2019 02:14
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There is no such thing as the US not being involved with Venezuela. I know we've been over this, the oil trades, the refineries, the refusal to accept aid, the previous actions of the national assembly. We've discussed how Venezuela existed, how the opposition existed, and how the US interacted with Venezuelan economic systems, before sanctions were put in place. By its existence and operation in international oil markets, by governmental recognition, the US influences the situation regardless of action or inaction. You have set up a meaningless, unfalsifiable standard to meet your circular, unsatisfiable moral positioning. With all that said, it is interesting to watch how rapidly spin this whataboutism carousel-how rapidly you turn the topic back to the north. Are you willing to acknowledge the legal legitimacy of the Venezuelan legislature and opposition yet? Are you even willing to acknowledge the Venezuelan food crisis? These positions keep changing, because you can't focus on them- you need them to be about the morality of the US.
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Mar 3, 2019 02:17
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zapplez posted:Its actually the UN spokeperson that was taking bribes from the kremlin, the same one that said recently to stay hands off in Venezuela. UN Watch is an Israeli-funded astroturf group dedicated to the idea that the UN is beating up on poor Israel unfairly: 
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Mar 3, 2019 02:20
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Discendo Vox posted:There is no such thing as the US not being involved with Venezuela. I know we've been over this, the oil trades, the refineries, the refusal to accept aid, the previous actions of the national assembly. We've discussed how Venezuela existed, how the opposition existed, and how the US interacted with Venezuelan economic systems, before sanctions were put in place. By its existence and operation in international oil markets, by governmental recognition, the US influences the situation regardless of action or inaction. You have set up a meaningless, unfalsifiable standard to meet your circular, unsatisfiable moral positioning. That is sure a fancy way of saying "Having witnessed the USA rape to death every country it has intervened in, I need MORE"
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Mar 3, 2019 02:22
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Pharohman777 posted:So you are illiterate then, if you keep missing why the opposition has no power because you never ever read the many, many explanations we give, and the one in the op. if you're going to accuse people of illiteracy, you should probably actually read what's being discussed. explanations of why the opposition is powerless are not germane to discussing the agency the opposition has at present zapplez posted:Its actually the UN spokeperson that was taking bribes from the kremlin, the same one that said recently to stay hands off in Venezuela. ah cool. an organization that thinks the UN is biased against israel. what's that got to do with the red cross though?
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Mar 3, 2019 02:23
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Mackers posted:That is sure a fancy way of saying "Having witnessed the USA rape to death every country it has intervened in, I need MORE" "This is it! This will be the time our military invasion goes well, no civilians die, the country is transformed and everyone is better off! This time it will work! This time, and then those god drat loving peace-nicks will have to accept the US was never bad, and did the right thing all along!"
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Mar 3, 2019 02:30
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Since the Mormons went against religious principle and surrendered genealogical documentation to the American federal government, I really don't want to see Trump do a dry run of his impeachment defense in Venezuela.
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Mar 3, 2019 02:45
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https://twitter.com/dancohen3000/status/1101729334237249536
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Mar 3, 2019 02:48
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hosed up that Maduro bullied that guy into self harm like that
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Mar 3, 2019 02:58
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sexpig by night posted:hosed up that Maduro bullied that guy into self harm like that Maduro's SEBIN working with the KGB/Red Cross probably gave him the hot shots.
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Mar 3, 2019 03:01
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Can we all agree Maduro AND the opposition all need to be crushed?
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Mar 3, 2019 03:25
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Shaocaholica posted:Can we all agree Maduro AND the opposition all need to be crushed? Cunts to a man. Half the population is not a price worth paying.
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Mar 3, 2019 03:35
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"Took drugs" The two men were poisoned and robbed. Why is this idiot making up something about a story that is a week old?
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Mar 3, 2019 03:42
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Thats quite the spin from the russia times journalist. Why don't we repost the video of the "fully stocked" supermarkets while we are at it.
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Mar 3, 2019 04:00
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lol the joke I said is happening for real
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Mar 3, 2019 04:07
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Not even the dunces in Maduro's government are saying they took drugs. Delcy just yesterday said in a public statement that they were poisoned. Guy is just inventing new propaganda out of whole-cloth, dutifully pasted in here by a useful idiot. Defending a dictator melts people's brains. In other news, looks like Guaido will be returning tomorrow, and is calling for nationwide shooting of civilians and stealing from poor people as part of his coup. https://twitter.com/jguaido/status/1102043638488477702 edit: Wait, hang on a second, I misread that. He is calling for protests that conform with the Constitution, not shooting of civilians and stealing from poor people. Phew, crisis just barely avoided. Can you imagine if that was actually happening? Wow, that'd be bad!
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Mar 3, 2019 04:19
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Private Witt posted:edit: Wait, hang on a second, I misread that. He is calling for protests that conform with the Constitution, not shooting of civilians and stealing from poor people. Phew, crisis just barely avoided. Can you imagine if that was actually happening? Wow, that'd be bad! no one's buying it dude. Just realpolitik us we can deal
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Mar 3, 2019 04:23
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It's not clear from that message when he's returning. He said in an interview that he would return "before Monday", and a little while ago he said he would fly to Venezuela from Ecuador. He's in Ecuador right now, so it sounds like he's going to try to return tomorrow. There's a lot of anticipation about his return because Guaido violated a judicial order when he left the country last week, so he faces the possibility of getting arrested at his point of entry. EDIT: It's Carnaval this week, which means that pretty much everyone is on vacation. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Mar 3, 2019 |
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Mar 3, 2019 04:34
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Realpolitikers I can undertstand. Ok cool you are an amoral prick who is ok with suffering as long as it benefits you I get it But being a dem who just tows the party line means you're just....loving thick?
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Mar 3, 2019 05:11
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zapplez posted:Thats quite the spin from the russia times journalist. I think it is awful that anyone would want to starve Venezuelans. Private Witt posted:Guy is just inventing new propaganda out of whole-cloth, dutifully pasted in here by a useful idiot. Defending a dictator melts people's brains. Watch your mouth, stupid.
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Mar 3, 2019 05:18
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Judakel posted:I think it is awful that anyone would want to starve Venezuelans. You realize the PSUV has starved the most Venezuelans ever right?
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Mar 3, 2019 05:23
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zapplez posted:You realize the PSUV has starved the most Venezuelans ever right? I think it is awful that you'd argue for making it worse.
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Mar 3, 2019 05:33
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