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No. 1 Apartheid Fan posted:And then you run into the same problem you have with nearly every tank build in D&D outside 4E: in the absence of effective ways to compel enemies to focus on you and make it hard for them to engage allies, giving up offensive bonuses to maximize your personal survivability becomes counterproductive to the goal of "keeping everyone alive". If you absolutely must do that, an actual Abjurer with a dip for armor proficiency and Con as their secondary stat is an extremely tough nut to crack who's way, way better at being a credible battlefield threat and keeping enemies away from their team than an EK. Who cares about keeping everyone alive? EK is a Fighter, first and foremost. They deal damage. Polearm Master + War Caster, take Booming Blade, Shield + Stick, there, build complete. You're a high AC, high HP character, with conditionally even higher AC and resistance against elemental damage, that inflicts lots of direct damage and also punishes enemies as heavily as a martial can expect to if they try to leave your reach. Or just from entering it. It's less overall offense than PAM+GWM Battle Master, but that's the trade you're making to acquire both more personal survivability and magic utility. Or alternatively grab Shadow Blade at level 8 and do stupid amounts of damage in 2~3 fights per long rest. Infinity Gaia posted:Hey, I'm gonna be playing a Circle of the Moon Druid for an upcoming campaign, starting at level 5, and I'm wondering if a 1 level dip in Monk or Barbarian would be worth it. Monk gives me pretty much guaranteed better AC in animal form, Barbarian gives me only slightly more AC in animal form sometimes but some pretty decent buffs in Rage to being an animal if I lose concentration on whatever I cast pre-turning into a wolf. The cost is, obviously, a slight delay in the power curve and the loss of Archdruid but lmao level 20. Another option is getting a few more levels in Barbarian but those are a more significant tradeoff. Getting bear totem would be nice to become even more tough to kill but that's an entire CR delay on my animal forms and I have no idea if it's worth it. Level 2 Barbarian is worth considering too because Reckless Attack is actually fairly nice in beast form and Danger Sense is a pretty solid feature. Can't decide, wondered if people here had some experience with it. Grab Resilient Constitution at 4 so you pass your concentration checks, cast Barkskin then go into animal form - AC taken care of. Get to druid level 6 for Cave Bear and magical attacks. If you want to keep up the Cave Bear route you could grab 3 Barbarian levels after that for Bear Totem, but sticking to Druid you will get access to Earth Elemental at level 10. Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 06:54 on Mar 2, 2019 |
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Mar 2, 2019 06:40
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You don't need tanks in D&D 5E, they give everyone self-contained offensive and defensive abilities already. And they give plenty of tradeoffs to increase defensive opportunities. There's no holy trinity of tank/healer/DPS in this game design, and complaining that you can't maintain aggro is misunderstanding the game you're playing. If your character is obsessed with "keeping everyone alive" when everyone is already skilled combatants who don't a meatshield, it's a pretty weird roleplaying scenario. You don't see Superman diving in front of every bullet flying at Batman and Wonder Woman - they can generally take care of themselves, and team up when it's dramatically or tactically appropriate.
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Mar 2, 2019 06:57
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Bingo. Melee characters, by their mere presence, serve a useful function as blockers/maneuvering hazards, particularly in tight quarters, and thus it's nice to have at least two of them in a party so they can passively allow range-inclined characters to situationally do their thing unmolested. But that's about the extent of what the system supports, with only a couple archetypes that minimally push the envelope. If someone needs their character babysitted, they're just plain playing badly.
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Mar 2, 2019 07:17
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I read through the introduction of Storm King's Thunder, and I'm realizing that the premise of this campaign is staggeringly similar to the homebrew campaign I just finished, i.e. northwest Faerun under attack by a loose coalition of evil races (formorians, drow, mind flayers, and dragons), each one with their own agenda. My campaign was more of a total war scenario, but I know if I were to run this with my group, they'd start thinking that we just did this exact same thing.
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Mar 2, 2019 08:51
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Actually, the giants are explicitly competing against each other, and raiding the Sword Coast is incidental; some are no longer being in kept in check by their peers, while others are looking for the resources to one-up the other giants.
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Mar 2, 2019 09:18
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Infinite Karma posted:You don't need tanks in D&D 5E, they give everyone self-contained offensive and defensive abilities already. And they give plenty of tradeoffs to increase defensive opportunities. There's no holy trinity of tank/healer/DPS in this game design, and complaining that you can't maintain aggro is misunderstanding the game you're playing. Sure, but I'd suggest that that's at least an understandable problem since one edition of the exact same game ago the classes were explicitly, deliberately assigned roles. And since you can still specialize all the ones that have actually interesting options - mostly the 9th level casters - in any of those directions without forcing square pegs into round holes (the "healer Cleric" is a spec called Life, the "tank Wizard" is a spec called Abjurer, this is stuff explicitly supported and not people twisting the game out of shape).
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Mar 2, 2019 15:54
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Trying to play Life Cleric like a healer is awful lmao
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Mar 2, 2019 16:06
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Conspiratiorist posted:Trying to play Life Cleric like a healer is awful lmao That's a symptom of how bad the healing system is. The subclass design is based mostly around being a healer though. Unless you realize soon enough that you're actually just The Punisher but for undead. I agree with Apartheid fan. It's a bit ridiculous to pretend that the mmo Trinity isn't supported by the games systems, especially if you consider fluff/lore a part of those systems. The problem, like most issues with 5e, is the extent of support beyond character creation, integration into the combat system.
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Mar 2, 2019 20:21
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Nasgate posted:That's a symptom of how bad the healing system is. The subclass design is based mostly around being a healer though. Unless you realize soon enough that you're actually just The Punisher but for undead. It's actually based around being Cleric+ Clerics heal? Well, you heal better, and even in an area and without using spell slots. Clerics are relatively tough? Well, you get Heavy Armor. Clerics sometimes use weapons? Sure, have Divine Strike. Clerics are full casters with a versatile list, but have several staple spells they're expected to take? Let's just give all of those to you for free, so you can prepare whatever you want in your slots.
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Mar 2, 2019 20:34
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So to you Life cleric is just getting the "cleric tax" stuff for free? That's certainly a way to look at a specialization.
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Mar 2, 2019 20:57
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Pendent posted:I'm sure you were just born in 1988 or whatever but I definitely did a double take seeing someone with that number on the end of their handle say that they're jewish. This has come up in other threads and, even though this thread moves quickly and I was just away for two days, I want to address it. JustJeff is a joke based on my given forename and 88 was the number I always wore for sport; that's all there is to it (I was not born in '88). I was not raised in the US and literally knew nothing about the sinister nature of "1488" until last year.
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Mar 2, 2019 20:58
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JustJeff88 posted:This has come up in other threads and, even though this thread moves quickly and I was just away for two days, I want to address it. JustJeff is a joke based on my given forename and 88 was the number I always wore for sport; that's all there is to it (I was not born in '88). I was not raised in the US and literally knew nothing about the sinister nature of "1488" until last year. For what it's worth my comment was purely intended as "What a weird coincidence" instead of implying anything sinister on your part. There's no reason we should all have to deal with neo-nazi dogwhistles but such is the world we live in.
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Mar 2, 2019 21:59
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Pendent posted:For what it's worth my comment was purely intended as "What a weird coincidence" instead of implying anything sinister on your part. There's no reason we should all have to deal with neo-nazi dogwhistles but such is the world we live in. I believe you. However, I have had it happen in other places where people have been surprised or dismayed that a Jewish person would use an otherwise innocuous number that has been stigmatised by neo-nazis, and I've decided that hte best approach is to just get it out there.
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Mar 2, 2019 22:18
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Conspiratiorist posted:It's actually based around being Cleric+ It's called "Life". The first two abilities it gets do nothing but make you a better, more efficient healer. The third ability it gets incentivizes healing by giving you HP for healing other people. The capstone maximizes every healing spell you cast. It gets one thing that isn't about healing, Divine Strike, which seems to miss the larger point that every Cleric domain gets a mechanical analogue to Divine Strike at the exact same level so that their ability to do damage with a weapon isn't 100% obviated by offensive cantrips and blown away by every other class. The only other one you could argue is armor proficiency, but the fact that it doesn't also get martial weapons like the two other core Cleric domains (Tempest and War) who get heavy armor should clue you in that it gets heavy armor to "make you tougher" so that you can keep healing and buffing people. Life Cleric is "Cleric but better" in the same way that every single specialization is "Cleric but better", in that all of them make you a better Cleric, but what Life expressly does is make you a better healer. It's a specialization for people who want healing to be a primary function of their character and a more efficient combat option. I have no idea how you could argue that it isn't, and if "healers" aren't supposed to be a thing in 5E D&D, somebody should tell the designers that.
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Mar 2, 2019 23:20
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That you think playing a Life Cleric as a healer is laughable is a problem with the game and/or design of the spec, not with my (or any reasonable player's) inference that a "Life Cleric" focuses on healing.
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Mar 2, 2019 23:21
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No. 1 Apartheid Fan posted:That you think playing a Life Cleric as a healer is laughable is a problem with the game and/or design of the spec, not with my (or any reasonable player's) inference that a "Life Cleric" focuses on healing. Yeah I think that was his point. 5e healing has been discussed to death in this thread and the last. It’s terribly designed and implemented and Conspiratorist knows that. It’s more effective as a life cleric to wade into melee and cast spirit guardians, then bonk things with your mace than it is to stand back and heal people.
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Mar 2, 2019 23:27
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I'm okay with Clerics being "hands on" classes that can heal if needed. A pure healer makes sense to me more as a Wizard subclass than the class that was originally themed after a vampire hunter. Even in a pure healing Cleric was good it would still seem to be a waste to me given all the other stuff they get.
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Mar 2, 2019 23:34
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Dude, what does "healer" mean to you, that word doesn't nearly describe enough. Do you want his role to be "heals every turn in various ways?" That's a problem for game balance. If a healer can keep up with all the damage being thrown around, the only way to threaten PCs is one-shotting them, or attacking things other than HP. If the arms race gets there, then you'll require a dedicated healer instead of having it be an optional perk. It was a complaint for 25-30 years that players don't want to be forced to include a healer in the party... so the designers built a game where it wasn't required, but was still available... and that's what D&D looks like in 4E and 5E A life cleric has ribbon abilities that make them better at healing when it comes up. But this isn't a video game. Healing is one of ten things to worry about and isn't actually needed in D&D as a dedicated role, because again, everyone has their own healing and defensive abilities already.
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Mar 2, 2019 23:35
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Infinite Karma posted:Dude, what does "healer" mean to you, that word doesn't nearly describe enough. Do you want his role to be "heals every turn in various ways?" My entire response was predicated on the notion that D&D and fantasy gaming in general have, historically, often given classes or builds implicit or explicit (in 4E) defined roles that tell you what your class's tactical function in the party and the game is supposed to be. The initial thing that started me posting about it was a response to the assertion that that was asinine - that there was no "holy trinity" in D&D - except there frequently has been, it just isn't as rigidly codified as the one in MMORPGs. It's morphed into an argument about what "healer" means, in which I felt like somebody was making fun of me for drawing the inference that a Life Cleric is supposed to be - by some standard - "a healer", or is a Cleric build option for people who like to heal and want to do it as much or more than other parts of playing a Cleric. It's whatever. I concede whatever argument we're having at this point. I will say it's extremely loving weird that it doesn't seem like some of the people I've been arguing with understand how you could roleplay a "tank" without being condescending to other players' agency or why someone would want to be a "healer", or whatever.
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Mar 3, 2019 00:43
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No. 1 Apartheid Fan posted:My entire response was predicated on the notion that D&D and fantasy gaming in general have, historically, often given classes or builds implicit or explicit (in 4E) defined roles that tell you what your class's tactical function in the party and the game is supposed to be. If your idea of historical president in D&D is solely 4e then yeah that’s why this seems wacky.
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Mar 3, 2019 01:36
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I think it's relevant to point out that D&D itself had acknowledged the idea of certain classes, and certain builds of classes, fulfilling certain roles within a party, by as early as at least 3rd Edition's Player's Handbook 2. A "Defender" Fighter would take Combat Reflexes, Shield Specialization, Shield Ward, Defensive Sweep, etc., while a "Destroyer" Fighter would prioritize Power Attack, Cleave, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, and so on. A "Healer" Cleric would take Combat Casting and Sacred Healing as their first two feats and take a Healing domain deity and prepare Protection from Evil and Sanctuary, while a "Destroyer" Cleric would take Weapon Focus and Divine Justice (a feat that lets you deal back to the enemy whatever damage they hit you for) as their feats, a War domain deity for longsword proficiency, and prepare Bless, Divine Favor, and Magic Weapon. I think it's fair to say that D&D isn't designed such that these sorts of things are "mandated", but I do think it's a legitimate concern that if a player did want to fill such a role, that a "tanky" Fighter doesn't have nearly as many tools to express that playstyle as they might want to have, barring an agreement from the DM that they'd play along. gradenko_2000 fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Mar 3, 2019 |
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Mar 3, 2019 02:35
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The earliest explicit mention of a "class role" that I can remember ever seeing is the Complete Paladin's Handbook from D&D 2nd edition. It talked about kits to pick if you wanted your paladin to be a "tank".
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Mar 3, 2019 03:01
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Related to the question about rogue archetypes, are there any good 3rd party Rogue archetypes? Are there any good 3rd party archetypes for other classes? I'd really like to offer my players some more interesting options, especially for rogues which are pretty dull as-is.
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Mar 3, 2019 04:21
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Xlorp posted:Just had a pickup 5e game after decades away from RPG dice (Advanced Edition). The character I was handed clicked well for me in the session and I have a chance to continue with it. Some online research tells me that Ranger Beastmaster isn't a power play. Can someone recommend skills or advancements I should be angling on from level 3 up to maximize comedy options for combat? My first idea is that I need to go fast, not get hit, and try to project useful impact as far away as possible. Non-combat options with strong party support are good too. RP-fu winging it with reliable multitools is kinda my bag. Xlorp fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Mar 3, 2019 |
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Mar 3, 2019 05:31
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inthesto posted:Why is it that Arcane Trickster is the best rogue archetype while EK is the worst for fighter?
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Mar 3, 2019 09:50
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gradenko_2000 posted:a "tanky" Fighter doesn't have nearly as many tools to express that playstyle as they might want to have, barring an agreement from the DM that they'd play along.
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Mar 3, 2019 11:09
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So an actual play podcast I listen to started doing something I think is pretty interesting: If the party is split up and gets into combat, the players who aren't in the fight control the monsters. As an incentive to the players controlling the monsters to not pussyfoot around, they get inspiration for playing the monsters intelligently. Does that seem like something that would work?
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Mar 3, 2019 16:00
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Sounds cool, but kind of depends on the players. Having your more relaxed players square up against the poorly balanced monsters in the hands of a grognard sounds horrifying. But if all the players are on the same page, it's a good way to keep them engaged. In other news, send help: Rogue in a "roll for HP" game.
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Mar 3, 2019 16:17
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inthesto posted:So an actual play podcast I listen to started doing something I think is pretty interesting: If the party is split up and gets into combat, the players who aren't in the fight control the monsters. As an incentive to the players controlling the monsters to not pussyfoot around, they get inspiration for playing the monsters intelligently. that sounds cool, what podcast is it?
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Mar 3, 2019 17:28
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eke out posted:that sounds cool, what podcast is it? D&D is for Nerds. Be warned that the DM has some serious rose-tinted glasses for 3.5e (on another podcast he runs, he goes through all the 3.5 classes and tries to argue that poo poo like Hexblade and Healer aren't worthless), but he's a very good storyteller and the players are a delight. The most recent arc, Into the Jungle Island of Dendar, is where he adopts this policy and it's quite hilarious for the player to go gently caress YES I WANT TO BEAT UP MY TEAMMATES
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Mar 3, 2019 17:33
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Does anyone have any opinions on Esper Genesis? It looks like the Starfinder analog to 5e, and as someone who likes 5e and is getting progressively more fed up with Starfinder I'm wondering if it's worth taking a look at. I saw it as part of the GMs Day sale on Drivethrurpg which is why I bring it up. If there’s any system that has a good take on modern/sci fi 5e I’d love to hear about it.
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Mar 3, 2019 18:10
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inthesto posted:So an actual play podcast I listen to started doing something I think is pretty interesting: If the party is split up and gets into combat, the players who aren't in the fight control the monsters. As an incentive to the players controlling the monsters to not pussyfoot around, they get inspiration for playing the monsters intelligently. Balancing out table time like that is always a good idea. If you've got a new player the DM can help with tactics, still allowing the player to drive the bus. It can work for NPCs in noncombat situations too. Instead of a statblock just give a few details to start things off and let them fill in the rest. 'You are Joe the tax collector, a coward who just wants to escape this dungeon.' If Joe secretly works for the villain, you hold that detail back until its time to reveal it to the whole group of players.
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Mar 3, 2019 18:16
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Campaign podcast does it too, and it’s hilarious. They play as the NPC’s in solo sessions, and use voices for them too.
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Mar 3, 2019 18:57
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Epi Lepi posted:Does anyone have any opinions on Esper Genesis? It looks like the Starfinder analog to 5e, and as someone who likes 5e and is getting progressively more fed up with Starfinder I'm wondering if it's worth taking a look at. I played a one shot game with it and had a blast. It is basically just reskinned 5e with some cool gun rules and tweaked classes (the ranger analoug could actually do stuff). Personally, I would take it over starfinder any day.
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Mar 3, 2019 20:37
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Tendales posted:The earliest explicit mention of a "class role" that I can remember ever seeing is the Complete Paladin's Handbook from D&D 2nd edition. It talked about kits to pick if you wanted your paladin to be a "tank". Meanwhile the 2e PHB broke the classes down into four groups (Warrior, Wizard, Priest, Rogue). The Rogue classes were Thief and Bard.
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Mar 3, 2019 21:28
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Hot Springs Island Quoting to have this in my post history for later reference, this is great stuff I DM 5e because I've found it's loose enough for new players to glom onto while letting me do kind of whatever I want within the rules and adapt almost anything I've been interested in running to its terms. Truthfully I didn't get into D&D or role-playing until I volunteered to DM for this edition so I feel pretty committed to the books I have. Any other recommendations for one shots or adventures that are high concept or even gimmicky? I like having a strong central idea or setup I can work with. I'm still working on my DM skills (~14 months or so of practice) but making ideas from other systems or settings work for the setting at hand is something I can do in my sleep. I don't have a deep RPG history so assume that unless it's a 5e official release, super famous classic module, or was mentioned in the post I quoted, I probably don't know it.
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Mar 3, 2019 22:53
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Has there been any discussion in this thread about the Forge Domain cleric, or general cleric advice on spell selection? If someone remembers participating I can read through your posts to find it, don't need a specific link.
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Mar 4, 2019 04:39
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Has there been any discussion in this thread about the Forge Domain cleric, or general cleric advice on spell selection? If someone remembers participating I can read through your posts to find it, don't need a specific link. Forge is okay; it's just higher AC Cleric. Identify is very good for someone in the party to have, Heat Metal can be excellent in the right situations, and Animate Objects is an excellent damage/tarpit spell. For Cleric spells in general, you want Bless, Healing Word, Spiritual Weapon, and Spirit Guardians. Lesser Restoration and Revivify are of course really nice to have. Everything else up to taste.
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Mar 4, 2019 04:46
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I pissed off my DM so much with a forge cleric who had heat metal
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Mar 4, 2019 05:51
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Epi Lepi posted:Maybe it’s just my phone but this link doesn’t want to work for me. Which title were you recommending? Sorry for slow response. It's "Ulraunt's Guide to the Planes: The Shadowfell" https://www.dmsguild.com/product/264872/Ulraunts-Guide-to-the-Planes-The-Shadowfell?src=hottest_filtered&filters=45469 It's been most popular on DMs Guild for a few weeks now. I'm definitely going to pinch something from it for my Out of the Abyss campaign. One thing I find odd about the Shadowfell that this book also does - it's supposed to be a place where the souls of the recently dead travel on their way to the outer planes or to realm of Kelemvor / insert god of he dead here. Yet I can't recall that scene being played out dramatically in a module or splatbook like this. Something like Speak with Dead could be much more fun if the caster is transported to the Shadowfell and interrupts Kelemvor's bureaucratic minion introductory seminar for the afterlife to ask tiresome mortal questions of one of the audience of nervous souls, which fucks up the paperwork and half the audience ends up in the wrong place. Wait that's a TV show, anyway, some poo poo like that.
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Mar 4, 2019 05:54
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