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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Winter conditions of '41 and '42 being used to disregard the Soviet defense by claiming they were bailed out by the weather doesn't mean what Wehrmacht apologists think it means. Because it also puts the Nazis at fault for failing to plan for that kind of easily predictable material condition. The German logistics guys literally told the high command that they wouldn't be able to supply the offensive effectively after one month, but the high command decided that Aryan spirit would suffice to propel their armies to a quick victory. Then they managed to run buck wild for about month until the supplies ran out and they had to sit around and wait until the infrastructure caught up with them, then they ran buck wild for another month and again had to sit on their asses, and then they managed to push a little more until the whole thing just ground to a screeching halt.
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Mar 4, 2019 10:53
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Ardennes posted:That said, it is psychologically softer than the reality, that the German way over-stretched their front-lines, and despite the clear initial successes of Barbarossa...there was pretty much no way to take Moscow and therefore actually defeat the Soviet Union. Better to think "oh drat if we had those winter coats we could have breached Moscow's ridiculous defenses and somehow deal with a massive counter-attack." Despite how impressive Barbarossa was, the Nazis failed to achieve any of their strategic objectives. It wasn't just failing to take Moscow, they also failed to take Leningrad, and in the following year failed to take Baku by getting bogged down in Stalingrad. Really the Nazis didn't have any clue what it'd take to defeat the Soviet Union.
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Mar 4, 2019 10:56
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Despite how impressive Barbarossa was, the Nazis failed to achieve any of their strategic objectives. It wasn't just failing to take Moscow, they also failed to take Leningrad, and in the following year failed to take Baku by getting bogged down in Stalingrad. Really the Nazis didn't have any clue what it'd take to defeat the Soviet Union. I've run into some recent scholarship (Glantz and House, Citino) that suggests that, at least for Case Blue, the decision to try and take Stalingrad and the Grozny/Maikop/Baku area of the Caucasus simultaneously was not due to indecision: supposedly Hitler might have felt that his window-of-opportunity to bring the Eastern Front to some kind of a conclusion before the US military came online was about to close, and consequently that he couldn't afford to wait any longer.
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Mar 4, 2019 11:07
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gradenko_2000 posted:I've run into some recent scholarship (Glantz and House, Citino) that suggests that, at least for Case Blue, the decision to try and take Stalingrad and the Grozny/Maikop/Baku area of the Caucasus simultaneously was not due to indecision: supposedly Hitler might have felt that his window-of-opportunity to bring the Eastern Front to some kind of a conclusion before the US military came online was about to close, and consequently that he couldn't afford to wait any longer. The issue with Stalingrad was that even if it was taken and the rail line to Baku as severed, the Soviets still had a large Caspian fleet that could still shuttle supplies and men over as well as supply directly from Iran. In contrast, the Germans would have to embark on some pretty impressive mountain fighting to even reach Baku, it probably wasn't possible. Also, before the Germans took Grozny, the Soviets immediately torched the wells and would have done the same to Baku, it would have taken years to really get them back online. At best, they would deny Soviets domestic production and force the Soviets to rely on more lend-lease shipments. The Germans were actually far away from winning, and if anything after Barbarossa started to peter out in fall 1941, it became an act of depression to somehow claw back a victory. It is a bit humbling for the average Wehrboo to admit that Hitler was completely over his head and devoted the Reich to a completely unwinnable genocidal war. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 12:12 on Mar 4, 2019 |
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Mar 4, 2019 12:06
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yo bud we'll be fine if we just take their oil supplies, hey there's not like a really easy way to stop us from doing that is there you know what never mind let's just do it and be legends
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Mar 4, 2019 12:09
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Postoyevsky posted:https://twitter.com/getfiscal/status/1102390712958701568?s=19 Lol the other host is baby finland
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Mar 4, 2019 12:35
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R. Guyovich posted:the red yenta people are going nuts because their social club for dilettantes was proven to be...a social club for dilettantes hot sorcery posted:
It's more efficacious to call yourself a communist at this point. Communism at least has a clear ideological standpoint and identifiable political programs, but socialism just means whatever anyone wants it to.
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Mar 4, 2019 13:53
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socialism is the cool place to hang out.
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Mar 4, 2019 13:58
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"socialism" is the political act of having a social life
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Mar 4, 2019 14:00
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:"socialism" is the political act of having a social life and the more you socialize, the socialister it gets
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Mar 4, 2019 14:03
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The media has realized that calling socialism bad isn't working so they're trying to act like it's just trendy hipsters.
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Mar 4, 2019 14:06
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sitting back and waiting for "Socialism is the Craft Beer of Ideologies" from (spins wheel) the new york times
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Mar 4, 2019 14:07
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Peanut President posted:The media has realized that calling socialism bad isn't working so they're trying to act like it's just trendy hipsters. i wasn't around but didn't they do the same thing in the 60s/70s conflating left movements with hippies
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Mar 4, 2019 14:07
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Peanut President posted:The media has realized that calling socialism bad isn't working so they're trying to act like it's just trendy hipsters. Yeah like, even just in the DSA there are chapters outside of New York and out side of cities doing cool stuff and so every "modern American socialism" thinkpiece centered on the opinions of people in Brooklyn is less likely to be anything but feigned ignorance for deliberate marginalization as an urban niche interest.
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Mar 4, 2019 14:25
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:It's more efficacious to call yourself a communist at this point. Communism at least has a clear ideological standpoint and identifiable political programs, but socialism just means whatever anyone wants it to. this is why i steal from street fight and tell people my primary political belief is the complete destruction of the united states as it exists now
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Mar 4, 2019 14:54
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is this thread a safe space for me to say I hate it when people just use dialectics as another word for leftish political ideas? I keep seeing posts in other non-SA places where someone will try to raise an admittedly boring and well trodden point about like, I dunno, whether you can separate domestic and foreign policy with particular politicians, or about electoral pragmatism, or any of those other things that are informed by theory but don’t need theoretical language to be discussed, and someone will try to shut them down just by being like “you don’t understand dialectics. read Marx”, which, while extremely good advice, is often kinda tangential. what I’m getting at I guess is it’s weird to see the idea of dialectical reasoning in history getting thrown around on Reddit as a self-contained thought terminating cliche but I don’t understand why it’s suddenly become popular
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Mar 4, 2019 15:42
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Venom Snake posted:something old propaganda/historical films do that makes me laugh is showing germans soldiers in winter clothes, and talking about the germans being brought down by the cold paired up with footage of soviet soldiers in snow outfits on skis/snowshoes advancing forward retaking ground, all in this "Clearly the soviets just had racial resistance to cold" tone of voice. the only people capable of conquering russia are strange steppe nomads from frozen wastelands like mongolia, or minnesota. only those strong enough to resist the winters survive long enough to hold a rifle. weak chocolate eating germans stand no chance against the dialectic of the seasons. natural selection is back baby. its good again. awoouu (wolf howl)
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Mar 4, 2019 16:01
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it's not really the end of the world for 'socialist' to just describe a vaguely social democratic liberal i guess. that's the usage in france and they still have a much more militant and disciplined left wing than the US does the focus on labels etc is itself kind of liberal and consumerist...politic's as personal brand
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Mar 4, 2019 16:03
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GalacticAcid posted:it's not really the end of the world for 'socialist' to just describe a vaguely social democratic liberal i guess. that's the usage in france and they still have a much more militant and disciplined left wing than the US does the label is less important than the people who've seized the label in naked grabs for career advancement
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Mar 4, 2019 16:06
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Frog Act posted:is this thread a safe space for me to say I hate it when people just use dialectics as another word for leftish political ideas? I keep seeing posts in other non-SA places where someone will try to raise an admittedly boring and well trodden point about like, I dunno, whether you can separate domestic and foreign policy with particular politicians, or about electoral pragmatism, or any of those other things that are informed by theory but don’t need theoretical language to be discussed, and someone will try to shut them down just by being like “you don’t understand dialectics. read Marx”, which, while extremely good advice, is often kinda tangential. what I’m getting at I guess is it’s weird to see the idea of dialectical reasoning in history getting thrown around on Reddit as a self-contained thought terminating cliche but I don’t understand why it’s suddenly become popular Yeah it's stupid, because dialectics are a process of thought. Saying "you don't understand dialectics" is non-dialectical.
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Mar 4, 2019 16:06
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What is, like, the basics of thinking dialectically. "Situations are about forces in conflict which will resolve and form the basis for the next situation and conflict"?
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Mar 4, 2019 16:10
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Cerebral Bore posted:The German logistics guys literally told the high command that they wouldn't be able to supply the offensive effectively after one month, but the high command decided that Aryan spirit would suffice to propel their armies to a quick victory. Then they managed to run buck wild for about month until the supplies ran out and they had to sit around and wait until the infrastructure caught up with them, then they ran buck wild for another month and again had to sit on their asses, and then they managed to push a little more until the whole thing just ground to a screeching halt. At LeaSt uNdEr faScIsM tHe TrAIns RuN oN TiME
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Mar 4, 2019 16:21
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GunnerJ posted:What is, like, the basics of thinking dialectically. "Situations are about forces in conflict which will resolve and form the basis for the next situation and conflict"? i think a lot of people use it as a mantra of sorts to try and keep their thinking in a materialist place rather than focused on individual actors/actions
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Mar 4, 2019 16:32
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Lightning Knight posted:At LeaSt uNdEr faScIsM tHe TrAIns RuN oN TiME I just finished Gregory Liedtke's "Enduring the Whirlwind", which is an in-depth look at German logistics and manpower during WW2, and the German economy very nearly collapsed in the winter of 1941 because they were sending all these trains to Russia, and then they'd either freeze over or be blown up by partisans, so they'd send more trains, and eventually they sent enough trains that there was something like a one-third to one-half deficit in the rail capacity needed for the coal industry, and since almost all electricity in Germany was generated via coal plants, it just caused large swathes of the rest of the economy to freeze up and shut down from lack of power.
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Mar 4, 2019 16:49
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gradenko_2000 posted:I just finished Gregory Liedtke's "Enduring the Whirlwind", which is an in-depth look at German logistics and manpower during WW2, and the German economy very nearly collapsed in the winter of 1941 because they were sending all these trains to Russia, and then they'd either freeze over or be blown up by partisans, so they'd send more trains, and eventually they sent enough trains that there was something like a one-third to one-half deficit in the rail capacity needed for the coal industry, and since almost all electricity in Germany was generated via coal plants, it just caused large swathes of the rest of the economy to freeze up and shut down from lack of power. methamphetamine: not even once
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Mar 4, 2019 16:51
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is venture captialist socialism just funding insurgent marxist groups with the hope one of them pays off and hits the bigtime?
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Mar 4, 2019 16:53
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Lightning Knight posted:At LeaSt uNdEr faScIsM tHe TrAIns RuN oN TiME They run fine until you realize that the country you're invading has a different track gauge than the one that you're using. Which is still one of the funniest refutations of the whole hypercompetent German army myth - motherfuckers didn't even bother checking something that obvious.
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Mar 4, 2019 16:56
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Frog Act posted:is this thread a safe space for me to say I hate it when people just use dialectics as another word for leftish political ideas? I keep seeing posts in other non-SA places where someone will try to raise an admittedly boring and well trodden point about like, I dunno, whether you can separate domestic and foreign policy with particular politicians, or about electoral pragmatism, or any of those other things that are informed by theory but don’t need theoretical language to be discussed, and someone will try to shut them down just by being like “you don’t understand dialectics. read Marx”, which, while extremely good advice, is often kinda tangential. what I’m getting at I guess is it’s weird to see the idea of dialectical reasoning in history getting thrown around on Reddit as a self-contained thought terminating cliche but I don’t understand why it’s suddenly become popular first the socialists got rid of the word practice
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Mar 4, 2019 16:56
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gradenko_2000 posted:I just finished Gregory Liedtke's "Enduring the Whirlwind", which is an in-depth look at German logistics and manpower during WW2, and the German economy very nearly collapsed in the winter of 1941 because they were sending all these trains to Russia, and then they'd either freeze over or be blown up by partisans, so they'd send more trains, and eventually they sent enough trains that there was something like a one-third to one-half deficit in the rail capacity needed for the coal industry, and since almost all electricity in Germany was generated via coal plants, it just caused large swathes of the rest of the economy to freeze up and shut down from lack of power. One of the biggest factors that helped lead to the october revolution was the russian empire pushing it's rail network so hard 2/3rds of it's engines had been lost by 1917. Trains and socialism....folks I think there might be something to this
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Mar 4, 2019 16:57
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Cerebral Bore posted:They run fine until you realize that the country you're invading has a different track gauge than the one that you're using. Which is still one of the funniest refutations of the whole hypercompetent German army myth - motherfuckers didn't even bother checking something that obvious. 
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Mar 4, 2019 16:57
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quote:McElwee couldn’t disagree more. “I don’t ascribe in any way to these ideas that identity politics is bad for us. I think I can take someone who is deeply concerned about patriarchy and I can make them understand how patriarchy intersects with capitalism much more than I can take someone who’s mad because GM took their job away and make them understand socialism,” he said. (DSA’s Cunningham, who is black, sees class versus race as a false choice. “Racism,” she says, “is a tool of capitalism” to divide workers.) what the fucc is this
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Mar 4, 2019 17:04
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i agree with cunningham. the fight against racism and the fight against capitalism are the same
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Mar 4, 2019 17:10
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gradenko_2000 posted:I just finished Gregory Liedtke's "Enduring the Whirlwind", which is an in-depth look at German logistics and manpower during WW2, and the German economy very nearly collapsed in the winter of 1941 because they were sending all these trains to Russia, and then they'd either freeze over or be blown up by partisans, so they'd send more trains, and eventually they sent enough trains that there was something like a one-third to one-half deficit in the rail capacity needed for the coal industry, and since almost all electricity in Germany was generated via coal plants, it just caused large swathes of the rest of the economy to freeze up and shut down from lack of power. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5JiPj9c98Y
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Mar 4, 2019 17:13
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jarofpiss posted:is venture captialist socialism just funding insurgent marxist groups with the hope one of them pays off and hits the bigtime? This question makes me think of something. One time a very expensive looking young man came up to a tabling I was doing at some demonstration in the early days of the Trump presidency claiming to be very wealthy and interested in financing our org. The ISO doesn't really seek donor funding as they prefer the autonomy that comes with being primarily dues-funded, so after explaining that I directed him to some external fundraising efforts that were going on for local causes. He seemed really put off. I think he was expecting me to begin bowing and scraping the moment money was put on the line. Supposing he was honest in his self description, I imagine there is a small demographic of similar disaffected trust fund children like him who run leftist circles that are not so different from what you describe.
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Mar 4, 2019 17:16
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gradenko_2000 posted:what the fucc is this succ
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Mar 4, 2019 17:18
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With enough "not worrying about alienating blue collar workers" and "pushing leftward from within" we could achieve an Obamacare-type legislation by 2035!
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Mar 4, 2019 17:22
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What if we made a SuperPAC for communism?
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Mar 4, 2019 17:24
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as long as PAC stands for peoples armed commune
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Mar 4, 2019 17:26
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jarofpiss posted:is venture captialist socialism just funding insurgent marxist groups with the hope one of them pays off and hits the bigtime? Contextually it seems like a guy with a budding social conscience he's been able to compartmentalize from implications of how his checks come in until recently.
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Mar 4, 2019 17:29
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Ardennes posted:That said, it is psychologically softer than the reality, that the German way over-stretched their front-lines, and despite the clear initial successes of Barbarossa...there was pretty much no way to take Moscow and therefore actually defeat the Soviet Union. Better to think "oh drat if we had those winter coats we could have breached Moscow's ridiculous defenses and somehow deal with a massive counter-attack." coh2 doesn't understand poo poo about history
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