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Latest chapter Tactics podcast had a nice summary of like 12 recent big tournaments. One winner ran a Tau list with like 80 fire warriors and 8 devil fish
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Mar 7, 2019 03:38
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:Latest chapter Tactics podcast had a nice summary of like 12 recent big tournaments. Turns out if your list hides its sack of bricks raw efficiency in relatively inefficient but still more durable baskets it might work. Guy probably played out of his mind that day.
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Mar 7, 2019 03:42
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GET INTO DA CHOPPA posted:I understand that Vindicators are bad. I'm just trying to figure out a way to make them work. The stratagem, afaik, opens up for them to pop smoke and shoot, shoot while in melee etc., and their role would be as a midfield distraction Carnifex. Compare a predator to a 190pt relic contemptor with 4 bs2+ lascannons on a chassis with as many wounds, a 2+ save, 5+ invuln, 6+ fnp, 4a at s7 hitting on a 2+ in melee, and getting chapter tactics and try again to tell me predators aren't bad.
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Mar 7, 2019 04:16
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Strobe posted:Agreed. Though I'd say "suffers a number of mortal wounds equal to the models Wounds characteristic" so you could survive it with FNP effects but it'd still kill a dude unmodified. Some models with multiple wounds and plasma should still be risking death IMHO. It would be a nice buff to Iron Hands
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Mar 7, 2019 04:41
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Strobe posted:Agreed. Though I'd say "suffers a number of mortal wounds equal to the models Wounds characteristic" so you could survive it with FNP effects but it'd still kill a dude unmodified. Some models with multiple wounds and plasma should still be risking death IMHO. I would rather it just be one mortal wound. My Primaris Captain shouldn't end up dead because of a plasma pistol venting.
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Mar 7, 2019 05:24
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:I would rather it just be one mortal wound. My Primaris Captain shouldn't end up dead because of a plasma pistol venting. The impression I always got was "exploding" less than "venting". If you don't want him dead maybe don't overcharge? There should be significant risk, going from 7 to 8 strength is a big deal against most targets in the game.
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Mar 7, 2019 05:33
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Strobe posted:The impression I always got was "exploding" less than "venting". If you don't want him dead maybe don't overcharge? There should be significant risk, going from 7 to 8 strength is a big deal against most targets in the game. Yeah I think the removal of the model is more about their gun no longer existing than instant death necessarily, but it's hard to make that distinction on the table.
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Mar 7, 2019 05:35
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Booley posted:Compare a predator to a 190pt relic contemptor with 4 bs2+ lascannons on a chassis with as many wounds, a 2+ save, 5+ invuln, 6+ fnp, 4a at s7 hitting on a 2+ in melee, and getting chapter tactics and try again to tell me predators aren't bad. Predators are bad.... rear end! I use them all the time armed to the teeth with lascannons.
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Mar 7, 2019 05:44
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Strobe posted:The impression I always got was "exploding" less than "venting". If you don't want him dead maybe don't overcharge? There should be significant risk, going from 7 to 8 strength is a big deal against most targets in the game. It's a huge difference from previous editions, where you'd still get to make an armor save against it. While I'm OK with it for plasma gunners, hellblaster squads, etc, it's a bit frustrating how much risk you end up taking if you want to overcharge a plasma pistol or combiplasma on a character.
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Mar 7, 2019 05:45
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Booley posted:It's a huge difference from previous editions, where you'd still get to make an armor save against it. While I'm OK with it for plasma gunners, hellblaster squads, etc, it's a bit frustrating how much risk you end up taking if you want to overcharge a plasma pistol or combiplasma on a character. In previous editions you were also stuck at S7 the entire time; your risk was for zero additional reward. I get it can be frustrating, but it's not like you're taking plasma weapons in the first place because you want to play it safe all the time. There are ways to prevent at least one of 'your wounds characteristic in mortal wounds' that still keeps them mostly lethal to things they should be mostly lethal to (while still keeping it as close to the way it is right now to mean nothing should get a points bump out of it).
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Mar 7, 2019 05:57
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GET INTO DA CHOPPA posted:I understand that Vindicators are bad. I'm just trying to figure out a way to make them work. The stratagem, afaik, opens up for them to pop smoke and shoot, shoot while in melee etc., and their role would be as a midfield distraction Carnifex. Preds are mediocre but Vindicators are bad as hell and there's no "making them work." Even if they don't get immediately murdered, their actual output is almost non-existent. The more likely scenario for you going is that the opponent kills one of each tank so you can't use either of your strats, and if you go first then grats, you have a few hundred points of bad shooting from the Vindis which would be vastly more efficient from some other source.
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Mar 7, 2019 06:03
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Strobe posted:In previous editions you were also stuck at S7 the entire time; your risk was for zero additional reward. I get it can be frustrating, but it's not like you're taking plasma weapons in the first place because you want to play it safe all the time. There are ways to prevent at least one of 'your wounds characteristic in mortal wounds' that still keeps them mostly lethal to things they should be mostly lethal to (while still keeping it as close to the way it is right now to mean nothing should get a points bump out of it). S7 was better then, though. It was more similar to S8 now.
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Mar 7, 2019 07:08
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Booley posted:Compare a predator to a 190pt relic contemptor with 4 bs2+ lascannons on a chassis with as many wounds, a 2+ save, 5+ invuln, 6+ fnp, 4a at s7 hitting on a 2+ in melee, and getting chapter tactics and try again to tell me predators aren't bad. Lascannons are really unreliable in my experience. A flat 3 damage is preferreable to d6 damage. The 40 point difference tends to become more than 40 points when you run Relic units too. But yes, in a vacuum the relic contemptor has a stronger statline. With proper placement, the Ultramarine Chapter Tactic is worthless on a long range tank, though. Both Repulsors and Predators are considered bad, but there's been some players making good use of them in tournaments recently, and I want to believe it's not just because of lucky rolls.
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Mar 7, 2019 07:22
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Strobe posted:The impression I always got was "exploding" less than "venting". If you don't want him dead maybe don't overcharge? There should be significant risk, going from 7 to 8 strength is a big deal against most targets in the game. No, it's venting. In previous editions an overheating plasma gun wouldn't even prevent you from using the weapon, as the casualty could be taken from anyone in the squad and the justification was that the gun was taken from the still cooling corpse of the previous gunner. The lore, as I understand it, is that from the perspective of the designer the survival of the gun was more important than the survival of the bearer. There's also the fact that plasma can overheat on a vehicle and then still be used the next round. And while I get your argument, I disagree with it. Taking a wound on an expensive unit or a character already is a consequence. What the current rules do is completely disregard that some units are just tougher than others. A Primaris Hellblaster has the same chance of dying as a guardsman, yet the Hellblaster still pays significantly more.
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Mar 7, 2019 13:33
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:There's also the fact that plasma can overheat on a vehicle and then still be used the next round. There are some random vehicles that lose the weapon. The Ravenwing Land Speeder Vengeance, whose entire purpose is to fire off super heated plasma while zooming around the battlefield, can't use its plasma weapon again after it overheats. Under the current rules for to hit modifiers, that is a significant, probably disproportionate, draw back on a "Heavy D6" weapon mounted on a platform that's supposed to move constantly.
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Mar 7, 2019 15:02
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Strobe posted:In previous editions you were also stuck at S7 the entire time; your risk was for zero additional reward. I get it can be frustrating, but it's not like you're taking plasma weapons in the first place because you want to play it safe all the time. There are ways to prevent at least one of 'your wounds characteristic in mortal wounds' that still keeps them mostly lethal to things they should be mostly lethal to (while still keeping it as close to the way it is right now to mean nothing should get a points bump out of it). This would rule because if I overheated a hellblaster that already lost a wound, the unit would take two, so it would half-kill the next guy.
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Mar 7, 2019 15:04
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Maneck posted:There are some random vehicles that lose the weapon. The Ravenwing Land Speeder Vengeance, whose entire purpose is to fire off super heated plasma while zooming around the battlefield, can't use its plasma weapon again after it overheats. Under the current rules for to hit modifiers, that is a significant, probably disproportionate, draw back on a "Heavy D6" weapon mounted on a platform that's supposed to move constantly. Huh. Didn't even know that. I think it's safe to say that the plasma implementation is inconsistent.
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Mar 7, 2019 15:04
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ANAmal.net posted:This would rule because if I overheated a hellblaster that already lost a wound, the unit would take two, so it would half-kill the next guy. Hey man that S8 D2 shot has to have consequences.
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Mar 7, 2019 15:05
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ANAmal.net posted:This would rule because if I overheated a hellblaster that already lost a wound, the unit would take two, so it would half-kill the next guy. Now this I just flat out didn't think about. Whoops. 
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Mar 7, 2019 15:08
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Huh. Didn't even know that. I think it's safe to say that the plasma implementation is inconsistent. I think it underscores your point. The consequences for overheating are inconsistent in a way that suggests they were not fully thought out.
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Mar 7, 2019 15:08
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Maneck posted:I think it underscores your point. The consequences for overheating are inconsistent in a way that suggests they were not fully thought out. Absolutely. I will now claim victory over my Internet discussion, with all of the accolades and ramifications that result.
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Mar 7, 2019 15:29
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The land speeder vengeance should never be held up as an example of anything. I love that stupid thing because it's dogshit idiot trash and always has been since it showed up in 6th. We're on its third iteration and GW has yet to figure out the concept of "fast speeder with a giant plasma cannon".
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Mar 7, 2019 15:50
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https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/07/mar-7-shadowspear-focus-vanguard-rulesgw-homepage-post-3/ Vanguard rules article up.
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Mar 7, 2019 15:57
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Safety Factor posted:The land speeder vengeance should never be held up as an example of anything. I love that stupid thing because it's dogshit idiot trash and always has been since it showed up in 6th. We're on its third iteration and GW has yet to figure out the concept of "fast speeder with a giant plasma cannon". It's so so bad lol. I can't believe how awful the gun is. It's not that good even if you ignore it being reasonably likely to explode itself.
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Mar 7, 2019 16:41
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Cooked Auto posted:https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/07/mar-7-shadowspear-focus-vanguard-rulesgw-homepage-post-3/ That warlord trait single handley makes me want 30 infiltrators.
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Mar 7, 2019 16:43
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:No, it's venting. In previous editions an overheating plasma gun wouldn't even prevent you from using the weapon, as the casualty could be taken from anyone in the squad and the justification was that the gun was taken from the still cooling corpse of the previous gunner. The lore, as I understand it, is that from the perspective of the designer the survival of the gun was more important than the survival of the bearer. There's also the fact that plasma can overheat on a vehicle and then still be used the next round. I might be misremembering but didn't you also get an armor save? A marine could overheat every turn and theoretically not die.
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Mar 7, 2019 17:27
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Although point costs nay change this, to me it seems that infiltrators may become my go-to troops of they run about the same as an intercessor squad. Seems like they will preform the board control function better than scouts and will be harder to remove, which to me would justify paying a few more points into my troop tax. That suppressing fire ability on the new jump pack dudes could be fun for Blood Angels or other assault focused marines, but I'm not sure I'd want to take them for their autocannons alone if I didn't plan on making use of that rule. The rest seems cute but I'm not sure I'm interested in those snipers as elites or the characters that much. I suppose the Target Priority trait could make Azrael bubble a bit more fun. That, WftDA and 10 Hellblasters seems like a good time. Any hidden gems I'm missing or something I'm overestimating, or is that where others are too? Mef989 fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Mar 7, 2019 |
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Mar 7, 2019 17:35
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Naramyth posted:That warlord trait single handley makes me want 30 infiltrators. edit: this is an incorrect post, the Marksman Carbine requires natural 6s It's really strong. A 10 man unit of Infiltrators rapid firing can be expected 7-8 automatic wounds on whatever they're shooting at with that trait in action, plus any natural wounds from the additional 7-8 hits on the target. Crimson Fists Vanguard firing at a huge blob of Orks will absolutely demolish the unit. nite_moogle fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Mar 7, 2019 |
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Mar 7, 2019 17:38
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Mef989 posted:The rest seems cute but I'm not sure I'm interested in those snipers as elites or the characters that much. I suppose the Target Priority trait could make Azrael bubble a bit more fun. That, WftDA and 10 Hellblasters seems like a good time. The snipers are Heavy Support, and will likely be the cheapest option Primaris (maybe Marines in general) have in that role.
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Mar 7, 2019 17:39
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nite_moogle posted:It's really strong. A 10 man unit of Infiltrators rapid firing can be expected 7-8 automatic wounds on whatever they're shooting at with that trait in action, plus any natural wounds from the additional 7-8 hits on the target. Crimson Fists Vanguard firing at a huge blob of Orks will absolutely demolish the unit. Unmodified 6s to hit, but otherwise yes.
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Mar 7, 2019 17:40
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Maneck posted:inconsistent Maneck posted:not fully thought out.
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Mar 7, 2019 17:40
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Had a weird thing happen yesterday- I put one of those Kill Team box set Reivers (the ones that come as pale blue plastic) into some Simple Green to soak off a failed test scheme. When I took it out a few days later, the plastic was softer than normal. I was able to pull off the arms with gentle pressure and a few of the smaller bits came off just by touching them. The hosed up thing is, they had been attached with plastic cement so that really should not have been possible. Has anyone else had any experiences like this?
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Mar 7, 2019 17:40
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Naramyth posted:That warlord trait single handley makes me want 30 infiltrators. Yeah that's a ridiculous ability. Especially with something like Crimson Fists and Bolter Drill.
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Mar 7, 2019 17:43
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NovemberMike posted:I might be misremembering but didn't you also get an armor save? A marine could overheat every turn and theoretically not die. Yeah, the "roll a 1 and you die" thing is new to 8th.
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Mar 7, 2019 17:44
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Strobe posted:Unmodified 6s to hit, but otherwise yes. Bah, you're right. That's a disappointment then.
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Mar 7, 2019 17:44
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Yeah that's a ridiculous ability. Especially with something like Crimson Fists and Bolter Drill. This absolutely owns though and Bolter Drill will absolutely proc on a 4+.
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Mar 7, 2019 17:47
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Edit: I am an idiot and skimmed the wrong profile.
Sharks Dont Sleep fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Mar 7, 2019 |
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Mar 7, 2019 17:52
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Dumb question, but I can fire all the weapons on a tyrannocyte, even the ones that aren’t facing the target, right? As long as it’s in range that is.
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Mar 7, 2019 17:57
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A FESTIVE SKELETON posted:Dumb question, but I can fire all the weapons on a tyrannocyte, even the ones that aren’t facing the target, right? As long as it’s in range that is. Weapon facing doesn't exist anymore. You can also measure weapon ranges from any point on the model or the model's base if it has one.
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Mar 7, 2019 18:00
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Sharks Dont Sleep posted:I’m being super pedantic here but those new Suppressor dudes don’t have jump packs. I mean, the article says they do, but the rules don’t and neither do the models. They have the Jump Pack and Fly keywords.
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Mar 7, 2019 18:00
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