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1. PHB+1 is an adventurer's league rule, not something that's necessarily expected to be applied everywhere else. 2. "Multiclassing is an optional rule" is merely technically correct, but does not spare the game from having its classes designed with it in mind. Classes aren't that front-loaded with signature abilities lest they get poached via multi-classing, which then leads to players wanting to multi-class all the harder anyway to take the place of actual intra-class decisions about character progression. It wasn't actually a serious suggestion of mine to simply disallow multi-classing, because that would actually make any number of possible character builds/classes much less interesting, but the reason why those classes ended up like that in the first place, is because multi-classing exists. gradenko_2000 fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Mar 7, 2019 |
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Mar 7, 2019 16:51
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RC Cola posted:I'm playing a tempest cleric in 5e who has been worshipping a false god/eldritch horror. He realized that this thing was no god and was evil and is on his way to slay it. He found a new god to worship but his current god Zargon is blocking attempts to contact or reach out to other gods. How do I go about dealing with this? Do I talk to the DM and ask to temporarily swap my cleric levels with fighter levels to avoid his influence? Idk how to tackle this. It looks like 1-3 sessions from now we should be fighting him. No no no, you are going about this all wrong. Accept Zargon as your lord and master. 
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Mar 7, 2019 17:09
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Admiral Joeslop posted:I guess that's in errata somewhere? I suppose the benefit is the free opportunity attack if anything moves next to me, with the +2 from Dueling helping the lower damage? It's an errata, yeah. Also works with quarterstaves as per printing, which have the same statline minus thrown. And yes, Dueling. It's both more damage and AC, at the expense of Reach.
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Mar 7, 2019 17:14
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Hey, I was recently invited to play a 5e game, which is something I've never done before. I was toying around with the idea of creating some kind of wizard or eldritch knight, and I was thinking over the familiar rules. There are a number of familiars that weigh less than 10 pounds. I was toying with the idea of having a cat that is always hovering around with a mage hand it cast on itself. Can mage hand be used to give familiars a kind of wonky flight? I'm really thinking of this more from a theme perspective than any advantages given in combat. If I was thinking crunch, I'd just get an owl.
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Mar 7, 2019 20:12
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Mr. Lobe posted:Hey, I was recently invited to play a 5e game, which is something I've never done before. I was toying around with the idea of creating some kind of wizard or eldritch knight, and I was thinking over the familiar rules. There are a number of familiars that weigh less than 10 pounds. I was toying with the idea of having a cat that is always hovering around with a mage hand it cast on itself. Can mage hand be used to give familiars a kind of wonky flight? Technically yes, but the Familiar can't cast Mage Hand themselves, so you'd need to be personally recasting it every minute to keep it up, and spend significant amount of time controlling it so it moves around with you.
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Mar 7, 2019 20:22
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Conspiratiorist posted:Technically yes, but the Familiar can't cast Mage Hand themselves, so you'd need to be personally recasting it every minute to keep it up, and spend significant amount of time controlling it so it moves around with you. I kind of like this as a weird personality quirk, a spellcaster who insists on keeping his magic cat aloft next to him through considerable expended effort. Probably won't keep it up in combat though.
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Mar 7, 2019 20:28
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Mr. Lobe posted:I kind of like this as a weird personality quirk, a spellcaster who insists on keeping his magic cat aloft next to him through considerable expended effort. Probably won't keep it up in combat though. Putting the cat down would be like every anine character ever who did the thing to signify that they were starting to take the fight seriously.
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Mar 7, 2019 20:41
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Mr. Lobe posted:I kind of like this as a weird personality quirk, a spellcaster who insists on keeping his magic cat aloft next to him through considerable expended effort. Probably won't keep it up in combat though.
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Mar 7, 2019 20:44
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Talk to your GM I wouldn't mind reskinning the owl or raven for it
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Mar 7, 2019 20:44
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"feats are optional" is great because feats are the only thing that lets non-casters compete in battle, and then only because of how stupidly designed Great Weapon Mastery and Crossbow Mastery are. Naturally, feats are optional, and not the giant lists of spells. Also if you care about optimization dual wielding is only really good on swashbuckler rogues. Just about everyone else has better uses for their mino- sorry, their "bonus action," which is, naturally, neither a bonus, nor a full action.
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Mar 7, 2019 20:44
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Dameius posted:Putting the cat down would be like every anine character ever who did the thing to signify that they were starting to take the fight seriously. The concept I'm getting attached to right now is a tough scary half-orc eldritch knight in full plate mail (I'm entering the game at level 4) and a big ol' battleaxe who is a docile second-fiddle to his cat, who is the real brains of the operation. I figure when combat comes around, it would be the cat who is like, "alright, playtime's over, we got a situation on our hands".
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Mar 7, 2019 20:46
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That's a fine caricature; it should be fun for two or three sessions.
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Mar 7, 2019 20:48
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Mr. Lobe posted:The concept I'm getting attached to right now is a tough scary half-orc eldritch knight in full plate mail (I'm entering the game at level 4) and a big ol' battleaxe who is a docile second-fiddle to his cat, who is the real brains of the operation. If you are doing a short campaign, save that for a big bad fight or like an end of session fight. Not just any combat. That'd be a real fun character reveal.
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Mar 7, 2019 20:53
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yeah I figure I'm not going to be playing too many sessions, so it's fine to have kind of a schtick to work with rather than anything too serious. I figure the background is that the half-orc was an unsatisfied mercenary who was approached by the cat familiar with the offer of an education in the arcane arts in exchange for the comfortable and easy life of being a pampered pet. The cat is driven by hedonism and a somewhat sinister curiosity and rightly sees the half-orc as a patsy and a rube (which is how most cats see people, I think), and the half-orc is driven by equal parts a desire to be more than just a sellsword and also genuine affection for the cat who just happens to be able to teach him how to bend reality. I figure the cat having its own motivations which are also unknown to me as a player will also be a good hook for the DM to use to drive some things forward. Of course, the half-orc is going to be a scary, taciturn type who has no desire to share this internal life with his team-mates, so they are going to have to piece these details together on their own from observations of their behavior. Mr. Lobe fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Mar 7, 2019 |
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Mar 7, 2019 21:04
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Conspiratiorist posted:"Feats are an optional rule" is the greatest copout, followed only by thinking PHB+1 is a matter of game balance when it explicitly isn't so. Yes, a rule being written as optional is a copout because...? And given the meaning of the word "explicit," I would ask you to cite your source for PHB+1 explicitly not being a matter of balance. And saying it is limited to AL is like saying that I can only play AL adventurers if I'm in AL. GMs can run their games however the hell they like, and I know several who prefer PHB+1 and at least one who doesn't allow any splat books at all. That rule radically changes character creation options and thus the entire balance of the game. My point is that "balance" relies entirely upon what rules out of all available rules are being employed (and that doesn't factor in house rules or personal "balance" preferences like that GM who wanted Black Tentacles to trigger upon being cast). An RPG that doesn't enforce its own rules (as a CRPG does) cannot be perfectly balanced because of the wide variation in rules application. 5E's balance points vary wildly, and it is considerably more stable than past editions in that regard. Most RPG designers either don't care much about balance at all, or are trying to be responsive to their player bases more than they are aiming for objective balancing. My favorite example of this is Chris Perkins tweeting that 5E is balanced for characters with NO magic items. At all. Obviously this cannot be true for any value of "balance" that would pass muster in this thread. So far as I can tell, the main design priority seems to be fun, as streamlined as possible, and as accessible as possible (so no old-school mechanics that require the use of a calculator or college-level mathematics; anyone remember 1E's "linear feet" AoE spell?). Balance gets addressed to the extent that it appears to be messing with players' fun (as with the ranger class), but it isn't a priority. gradenko_2000 posted:2. "Multiclassing is an optional rule" is merely technically correct, but does not spare the game from having its classes designed with it in mind. Classes aren't that front-loaded with signature abilities lest they get poached via multi-classing, which then leads to players wanting to multi-class all the harder anyway to take the place of actual intra-class decisions about character progression. This whole discussion is based on hyperbole, but playing without multi-classing does change the kinds of choices you can make. Setting aside whether I should be sorry for being "technically correct," I'd argue that the classes clearly were NOT designed with multi-classing in mind. Archetypes, in particular, are sometimes very front-loaded, and most of the actual multi-class builds take advantage of early class abilities: a splash of Warlock to get your devil-eyes on, or two levels of fighter for armor and the ability to cast multiple spells in a round. Balanced multiclassing is actually viable--I was very happy with a split Paladin/Warlock, who could cast Aid and smite out of Warlock slots and get his steed back on a short rest--but I wouldn't say the system was designed with that in mind. Having tried to deconstruct the classes, I'd go so far as to say that the main design principle was to ensure that every class got something cool and fun at every level. I am sure nobody in the thread needs to be told that the power progression of a Fighter might not match up properly with a Wizard as they proceed toward L20. 5E was also built around making it hard for a new player to entirely screw up their characters, not around making it hard for experienced players to power-game. WotC certainly hasn't bothered to do much to tweak multiclassing or feats now that they have years of actual play to refer to. But I prefer benevolent neglect to the 4E "rules patching" model that required some of our players to completely rebuild characters every 6-9 months. At a local player's request, I've sketched out a 5E classless system draft; the compromises involved in creating that and my multiple failed attempts to convert the existing classes into bundles of design points suggest to me what's relatively obvious: some abilities are just "we need to give the fighters something at this level" and some are extremely powerful (like metamagic). At some point, I need to make my draft readable enough for general use and post links in the thread so folks can spot the broken-ness, because my playtest group just aren't being abusive enough. (Characters start with 14 build points and get 2 per level; Action Surge is available at L2 for 2 build points, but nobody bought it yet and they're L5. Font of Magic/Metamagic is purchasable by anyone, but none of the spellcasters took it.) I've been trying out NPC helper builds as a test, but after the Gloom Stalker archetype who has sorcerer spells and sneak attack upstaged the whole group during an Underdark scenario, I'm cooling on that form of testing a bit. (He scored five crits in six rounds of combat across three fights... with Shadow Blade and 3d6 sneak attack at L5.) I am absolutely certain I am undervaluing certain abilities and overvaluing others, but the only way to achieve something approaching balance is to get a lot of feedback.
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Mar 7, 2019 21:13
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It's difficult to defend multiclassing as anything other than powergaming when the typical builds are entirely based on combat damage and generally poach just a couple levels of another class in order to create a Warlock+ or whatever. That being said, I wouldn't see multiclassing as any different from using an overpowered UA or 3rd party build, particularly if the whole party is onboard. Just don't be surprised if NPCs find it necessary to target your character because you're the one wrecking havoc on the field. Kaal fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Mar 7, 2019 |
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Mar 7, 2019 21:27
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The reason "technically" is being thrown around is because a lot of these technically true things are what balance the game, without the writers having to deal with the real balance consequences. For example, technically, fighters are balanced, because the general guidelines are to have 8-10 encounters per adventuring day, with an hour long rest every other encounter. For something like that, fighters very well may be balanced. But any of the dms that want VERISIMILITUDE aren't going to allow multiple hour long breaks in a populated dungeon, and everyone else would find it challenging to create continuous scenarios that have 8-10 encounters per day. But, technically, the fighter is considered balanced, unless you ignore those guidelines, which is houseruling. Technically, feats and multiclassing are optional. But a large part of this game was designed with 3.5/pathfinder in mind. Which led nearly everyone to roll with multiclassing. In an "exception proves the rule," how many online games would advertise "we allow multiclassing"? I haven't seen any, though I may be missing them. But, I've definitely seen games specifically calling out "multiclassing is banned" because multiclassing is assumed. I'd be really surprised if they didn't know that multiclassing would be the standard.
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Mar 7, 2019 21:36
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I think there's also an element that the people who want are interested in multiclassing are the ones who enjoy character building and system mastery in the first place. I'm having a lot of fun playing a Sorcadin in my current campaign, if a campaign that hasn't met in 3 months can still be called that, but if I was told I couldn't multiclass then I'd take my system mastery and roll up a single classed Cleric or Bard instead, and I'd probably still be putting out a lot of work. It's also important to note that different players enjoy different parts of the game in different amounts. I like the crunchy combat of the game as much as I like the talky roleplaying of the game, so I put effort into making sure my characters are prepared for both.
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Mar 7, 2019 21:45
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Narsham posted:Yes, a rule being written as optional is a copout because...? Because why the gently caress does it matter if it's an optional rule? Does something marked as 'optional' exempt it from scrutiny? It's printed - it's in the book - a *suggestion* that has a great many pages and numbers dedicated to it. Are feats meant to be intentionally bad? Why would you print something that throws a wrench into the workings of the system you're writing? Narsham posted:And given the meaning of the word "explicit," I would ask you to cite your source for PHB+1 explicitly not being a matter of balance.  Courtesy of XGtE Kaal posted:It's difficult to defend multiclassing as anything other than powergaming when the typical builds are entirely based on combat damage and generally poach just a couple levels of another class in order to create a Warlock+ or whatever. Almost all the most powerful character builds are single-classed, so multiclassing is just an exercise in system mastery in the pursuit of some amusing gimmick or mechanically interesting avatar to engage the gameplay aspect of the game with. Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Mar 7, 2019 |
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Mar 7, 2019 22:10
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The vast majority of the time, multiclassing by level is a hideous trap. Most players aren't GiantitP regulars pouring over builds, they're going "that adventure had a lot of magic in it and I liked that, maybe I should take a level in wizard?" It's not bad becuase it leads to a select few overpowered builds - it's bad because it leads to disgustingly more unplayable ones. The only reason it works is because DMs either fudge stuff nonstop, or, far more often, they just...stop using the rules.
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Mar 7, 2019 22:27
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ProfessorCirno posted:"feats are optional" is great because feats are the only thing that lets non-casters compete in battle, and then only because of how stupidly designed Great Weapon Mastery and Crossbow Mastery are. Naturally, feats are optional, and not the giant lists of spells. I'd say Bladesingers do alright with dual wielding, if only because they aren't using that hand for anything else anyways since a Bladesinger should really have Warcaster. Lets you do some fun stuff with Haste and SCAG cantrips. Probably not as powerful now that Shadow Blade exists though.
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Mar 7, 2019 22:33
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What’s a good source for stirge miniatures? I need about 10 of them and I’m not having much luck.
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Mar 7, 2019 22:42
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Infinity Gaia posted:I'd say Bladesingers do alright with dual wielding, if only because they aren't using that hand for anything else anyways since a Bladesinger should really have Warcaster. Lets you do some fun stuff with Haste and SCAG cantrips. Probably not as powerful now that Shadow Blade exists though. If you've got War Caster, you dual wield your Shadow Blade with a Shortsword for an extra d6. Resilient CON is better, though.
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Mar 7, 2019 22:58
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Zev posted:What’s a good source for stirge miniatures? I need about 10 of them and I’m not having much luck. why not just pin some mosquitoes?
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Mar 7, 2019 23:20
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cowboy
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Zev posted:What’s a good source for stirge miniatures? I need about 10 of them and I’m not having much luck. Same but for a Kobold. All the ones I can find are ugly, the wrong style, or just bad. Something closer to:  and less of ....this: 
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Mar 7, 2019 23:23
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ProfessorCirno posted:The vast majority of the time, multiclassing by level is a hideous trap. Most players aren't GiantitP regulars pouring over builds, they're going "that adventure had a lot of magic in it and I liked that, maybe I should take a level in wizard?" It's not bad becuase it leads to a select few overpowered builds - it's bad because it leads to disgustingly more unplayable ones. Yeah, the problem with multiclassing isn't that it's always used to powergame; it's that if you use it as almost anything other than powergaming, your character inevitably turns into a non-functional heap of poo poo.
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Mar 7, 2019 23:36
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Gimme a survivable barbarian or barbarian adjacent build for 3-10. A huge half-naked dude with a giant weapon that can go "Boooooriiiiiing, I charge" and expect to survive until everyone else gets their poo poo together and joins in fighting. e: Separately, since we're talking multiclassing, is there any case where you'd take a barb to level 6+ and switch to a full caster class? What about vice versa? Full caster switches to barbarian? (e2: "...and not suck at everything", obviously. I can't find a way to do it). Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Mar 7, 2019 |
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Mar 7, 2019 23:37
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:Gimme a survivable barbarian or barbarian adjacent build for 3-10. A huge half-naked dude with a giant weapon that can go "Boooooriiiiiing, I charge" and expect to survive until everyone else gets their poo poo together and joins in fighting. Variant Human 16 14 16 8 10 8 ASIs: 1. Polearm Master 4. Great Weapon Master 8. STR+2 Goes Bear Totem, wears a breastplate or half-plate, wields a halberd. Spear+Shield is also an option, with more survivability. RE: multiclassing into full caster, the only real case is Totem Barbarian 5 into Moon Druid for Rage/Reckless Attack/Extra Attack on Wildshape. But Cave Bears get Multi-Attack and so do Earth Elementals, so it's questionable whether you'd really want to go Barb 5 or stick to just 3 for Totem.
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Mar 7, 2019 23:50
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Could just pick "all the rituals wizard" for out of combat utility
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Mar 7, 2019 23:53
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FFT posted:why not just pin some mosquitoes? Actually do this, it's like method acting, the discomfort will be rea.... Oh man so many games make sense to me now
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Mar 7, 2019 23:56
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It's always really gross when people use real bug remains as miniature parts in the miniature unspiration thread, so go and do that
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Mar 8, 2019 00:44
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BattleMaster posted:It's always really gross when people use real bug remains as miniature parts in the miniature unspiration thread, so go and do that Wait, this is something that happens regularly 
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Mar 8, 2019 00:45
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kingcom posted:Wait, this is something that happens regularly Not regularly, but I've seen dead cicadas used as units or units constructed from dead cicada parts a few times. I guess people find dead cicadas on their balconies and decks and driveways and have a bright idea. (At least I hope they're from cicadas that died naturally at the end of cicada swarms and not cockroaches of species that look more cicada-like)
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Mar 8, 2019 00:48
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BattleMaster posted:Not regularly, but I've seen dead cicadas used as units or units constructed from dead cicada parts a few times. (At least I hope they're from cicadas that died naturally at the end of cicada swarms and not cockroaches of species that look more cicada-like) Wait, was the dead Cicada used as a stand in for a Cicada CDA-2A ?
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Mar 8, 2019 00:48
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kingcom posted:Wait, was the dead Cicada used as a stand in for a Cicada CDA-2A ? That would be funnier more than gross but no, it's always for people who play Warhammer or similar games cheaping out when they need a lot of units for a huge army.
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Mar 8, 2019 00:50
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inthesto posted:Yeah, the problem with multiclassing isn't that it's always used to powergame; it's that if you use it as almost anything other than powergaming, your character inevitably turns into a non-functional heap of poo poo. Yeah my friends first character being a wizard/warlock is a disaster, two weeks in and he realized he was rarely hitting with some spells and was never going to be able to be much better There's simply no need for multiclassing when so many classes have their own variants. If it was just the 4 main classes, sure, but someone who wants to be a fighter mage can just be an Eldritch knight And it's obvious the system is built with multiclassing in mind or else you'd get way more at level 1 instead of having to wait for no reason to get your "real" class benefits later on
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Mar 8, 2019 00:56
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My first multiclass character in 3.5 was a rogue/warlock. I loved the flavor and it did great in dungeon diving but meh in combat and definitely not optimized. Naturally combat took 80% of a typical session's time due to our druid and conjuration wizard...
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Mar 8, 2019 01:00
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BattleMaster posted:That would be funnier more than gross but no, it's always for people who play Warhammer or similar games cheaping out when they need a lot of units for a huge army. Thats um, extremely gross. Holy poo poo does that scream serial killer though.
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Mar 8, 2019 01:00
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Conspiratiorist posted:Variant Human If I wanted to go spear/shield for +ac and theme, I'd swap out pam/gwm, right? For what? Party won't be super optimised so it's not enormously important but I don't wanna take useless stuff. Also, breastplate? Not unarmored? Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Mar 8, 2019 |
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Mar 8, 2019 01:02
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Yeah I feel like subclasses are cool and do a better job at multiclassing than the real multiclassing, aside from some real powergamey combos. If they ever do a 5.5E I'd hope they just ditch multiclassing and rebalance everything without it as a factor. With some rejiggering of the subclass options and maybe being able to pick a second subclass at some point at a higher level they could do better than multiclassing.
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Mar 8, 2019 01:04
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