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Phylodox posted:You can qualify all you like, it’s still permanently altering their biologies. It’s a violation of bodily autonomy. So "biology" is where you draw the line? Because exactly some of the time, the technobabble explanation for superpowers is just "energy". Is okay to take away these people's powers? Or, I guess that Cicada is actually Meta now, but his knife is very much a part of him now, psychic connection and all. Would taking his knife away from him be like forcibly amputating a limb? oh jay fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Mar 8, 2019 |
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Mar 8, 2019 01:26
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I'm actually totally lost on this metatech stuff. I thought that people like Cicada weren't metas themselves, and it was the "dark matter infused objects" that had some power that they were using. But clearly this doesn't seem to be the case, based on what they said about offering a cure to Cicada. What am I missing?
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Mar 8, 2019 02:31
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I thought Cicada was a meta himself AND he has the dagger that takes away other meta's powers, as well as fly by itself and do all that other cool stuff?
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Mar 8, 2019 02:33
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The way they talk about how the cure actually suppresses the dark matter in the system should probably still work on Cicada.
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Mar 8, 2019 02:41
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muscles like this! posted:The way they talk about how the cure actually suppresses the dark matter in the system should probably still work on Cicada. The twist is going to be that it doesn’t because it’s his niece who’s the meta, though.
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Mar 8, 2019 03:52
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Phylodox posted:Jabbing them with a needle is a medical procedure, one you can’t do to just anyone without their express consent. Just because someone was a victim of an industrial accident doesn’t invalidate their right to bodily integrity. Nah. Big difference between a jab with a needle and, like, actual invasive surgery. Police are allowed to jab you with a needle against your consent if a blood test is ordered. You rob a bank with your powers, sorry, you lose your powers. Your "right to bodily integrity" extends to the body you were born with, not the magic powers you stumbled into one day. XboxPants posted:It's one thing if it's like, Ralph or something, hard to imagine that's gonna make a difference to who he is as a person if he can't stretchy his nose anymore. Grodd isn't a metahuman anyway, he's a gorilla that got superscienced IIRC. And Caitlin's powers give her what is essentially dissociative identity disorder, and I don't think anyone sheds a tear for the lost personalities when they find a working series of medications. And Cecille wasn't BORN with telepathy, she gained her powers when she was already in her forties. It's not going to hurt her any to go back to the person she was six months ago before she randomed into some unfair magic ability. You're not "blinding or deafening" her, she's still going to have the same five senses that the rest of us manage to get by with. XboxPants posted:So in the end yes you are right Flash should just murder them that would be more ethical. Now this I can get behind, though.
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Mar 8, 2019 05:32
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Phenotype posted:Nah. Big difference between a jab with a needle and, like, actual invasive surgery. Police are allowed to jab you with a needle against your consent if a blood test is ordered. You rob a bank with your powers, sorry, you lose your powers. Your "right to bodily integrity" extends to the body you were born with, not the magic powers you stumbled into one day. As much as I disagree with you on most counts, I gotta say we may be on the same page on this one. I am deeply, deeply skeptical of Caitlin's claim that Killer Frost is like, totally a different person, you guys, what do you mean why does she coincidentally act exactly the same as I do when I'm drunk, come on shut up
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Mar 8, 2019 09:34
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Phenotype posted:Grodd isn't a metahuman anyway, he's a gorilla that got superscienced IIRC. There was some superscience involved, but I'm fairly certain the particle accelerator explosion is what kickstarted his powers, so Grodd is a metagorilla.
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Mar 8, 2019 13:39
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Phenotype posted:Nah. Big difference between a jab with a needle and, like, actual invasive surgery. Police are allowed to jab you with a needle against your consent if a blood test is ordered. You rob a bank with your powers, sorry, you lose your powers. Your "right to bodily integrity" extends to the body you were born with, not the magic powers you stumbled into one day. Taking blood doesn’t permanently alter your body chemistry. And no, man, bodily integrity doesn’t stop just because you’re enhanced. That’s like saying, “Sorry, lady, you had a boob job, now I get to remove your kidney.”
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Mar 8, 2019 14:45
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Phylodox posted:Taking blood doesn’t permanently alter your body chemistry. And no, man, bodily integrity doesn’t stop just because you’re enhanced. That’s like saying, “Sorry, lady, you had a boob job, now I get to remove your kidney.” If someone had a gun grafted to their arm and then used that gun to commit crimes, would that gun be an integral part of their body that it would be wrong to remove? Or would the law go "it doesn't matter that you attached it to yourself, it's still a gun that you used for crimes and you can't keep it."
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Mar 8, 2019 14:55
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The metahumans I can understand having hesitation about "fixing", but Grodd definitely would have been
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Mar 8, 2019 15:47
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Tiggum posted:If someone had a gun grafted to their arm and then used that gun to commit crimes, would that gun be an integral part of their body that it would be wrong to remove? Or would the law go "it doesn't matter that you attached it to yourself, it's still a gun that you used for crimes and you can't keep it." Pretty sure they took Bucky's arm away in the Marvel movies once he was captured. Phylodox posted:Taking blood doesn’t permanently alter your body chemistry. And no, man, bodily integrity doesn’t stop just because you’re enhanced. That’s like saying, “Sorry, lady, you had a boob job, now I get to remove your kidney.” Where does the kidney come in?? I would absolutely be down for removing this lady's fake boobs if she used them to kill people.
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Mar 8, 2019 16:30
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Like I am totally in favor of your relative right to bodily integrity in real life, but at the same time I would lean towards making vaccinations mandatory, so I feel like there's a point where your rights need to be superseded to protect other people. If you got splashed with the particle accelerator and now you piss lasers, I think that if you're purposely committing crimes with your pisslaser, the law should have some mechanism to take your pisslaser away simply because society's right to safety precludes your right to continue pissing lasers.
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Mar 8, 2019 16:45
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The very fact that vaccinations aren’t mandatory shows that society disagrees. Bodily integrity is considered a protected human right. Even in the absurd hypothetical situation wherein some woman is using her breast implants to kill people.
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Mar 8, 2019 17:09
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Phenotype posted:Pretty sure they took Bucky's arm away in the Marvel movies once he was captured. The only time he didn't have an arm was after Iron Man destroyed it in Civil War. When he was in custody earlier in the film, he still had it.
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Mar 8, 2019 17:18
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So would it be alright if instead of a syringe it was a beam? Or they just put up meta dampeners all around the world?
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Mar 8, 2019 18:19
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Avalerion posted:So would it be alright if instead of a syringe it was a beam? Or they just put up meta dampeners all around the world? It’s really not a super complicated subject. Would the beam change their physiology without their consent? Meta dampeners just stop them from being able to use their powers, they don’t remove them. It’s analogous to using handcuffs instead of removing their arms.
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Mar 8, 2019 18:24
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Phylodox posted:The very fact that vaccinations aren’t mandatory shows that society disagrees. Bodily integrity is considered a protected human right. Even in the absurd hypothetical situation wherein some woman is using her breast implants to kill people. Hey, that was your own absurd hypothetical situation, buddy.  There has actually been a lot of talk about making vaccines mandatory in the last year or two because the idiot anti-vaxxers are actually starting to cause outbreaks, so I don't know if you can say society is definitely in disagreement with that. And the analogy only goes so far, because anti-vaxxers aren't actually going out and trying to kill people with the measles. There isn't really a real life analog for someone having a dangerous weapon implanted in their body (fortunately), but I think taking away the weapon is a reasonable solution. I just don't agree with the idea that removing your superhuman ability as a punishment for crimes involving your superhuman ability is an unconscionable violation of your rights.
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Mar 8, 2019 18:25
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"It's too late, you fools! I've just drank a serum that lets me make people's heads explode! The only way to stop me is to douse me with the antidote here in this bucket!" "Quick, Flash, throw the bucket at him!" "We can't! The ability to make people's heads explode is part of his physiology now and it's wrong to change--." *heads explode*
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Mar 8, 2019 18:36
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Phenotype posted:Hey, that was your own absurd hypothetical situation, buddy. It was in response to someone basically saying “Human rights only apply to factory default humans”, which is ridiculous because we humans enhance ourselves all the time. quote:There has actually been a lot of talk about making vaccines mandatory in the last year or two because the idiot anti-vaxxers are actually starting to cause outbreaks, so I don't know if you can say society is definitely in disagreement with that. Society is. That’s not to say that people aren’t, but that’s what things like the Supreme Court are for, to act as a buffer between the law and mob mentality. quote:And the analogy only goes so far, because anti-vaxxers aren't actually going out and trying to kill people with the measles. There isn't really a real life analog for someone having a dangerous weapon implanted in their body (fortunately), but I think taking away the weapon is a reasonable solution. I just don't agree with the idea that removing your superhuman ability as a punishment for crimes involving your superhuman ability is an unconscionable violation of your rights. I mean, we already have deadly weapons implanted in our bodies; fists, feet, teeth. If someone tears another person’s throat out with their bare hands, even if they’re utterly unrepentant and determined to do so again, we don’t remove their hands.
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Mar 8, 2019 18:36
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Phylodox posted:I mean, we already have deadly weapons implanted in our bodies; fists, feet, teeth. If someone tears another person’s throat out with their bare hands, even if they’re utterly unrepentant and determined to do so again, we don’t remove their hands. This seems like a bad faith argument here. For one, everyone is born with fists and feet and teeth. Everyone has a right to their fists and feet and teeth. The world is constructed for use by people with fists and feet and teeth. Meta powers are just something that people stumble into, no one is unreasonably disadvantaged by losing them. As far as functioning in the world goes, it would be harder on someone to lose their driver's license than their magic murder powers. For two, the entire point is that meta powers are orders of magnitude more dangerous than fists and teeth.
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Mar 8, 2019 18:45
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Phenotype posted:This seems like a bad faith argument here. For one, everyone is born with fists and feet and teeth. Everyone has a right to their fists and feet and teeth. The world is constructed for use by people with fists and feet and teeth. Meta powers are just something that people stumble into, no one is unreasonably disadvantaged by losing them. As far as functioning in the world goes, it would be harder on someone to lose their driver's license than their magic murder powers. For two, the entire point is that meta powers are orders of magnitude more dangerous than fists and teeth. That’s a terrible point. You don’t forfeit your rights to your body because it doesn’t disadvantage overmuch. Bodily integrity is absolute. It has to be, otherwise it’s worthless, and that opens the door to all manner of horrible things.
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Mar 8, 2019 18:50
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The thing is within the show, until very recently powers were like clothes, people would take them on and off flippantly. I never would have even considered it "bodily integrity" until recently. Like, that guy that got Fire powers from Melting Point and then immediately started doing crime. I guess they locked him in Iron Heights, but I think they would have been completely justified in taking his powers away, because it really seemed like a "thing he has" not a "thing he is".
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Mar 8, 2019 18:59
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Phylodox posted:That’s a terrible point. You don’t forfeit your rights to your body because it doesn’t disadvantage overmuch. Bodily integrity is absolute. It has to be, otherwise it’s worthless, and that opens the door to all manner of horrible things. From where I stand, it is a basic human right to have eyes. It is not a basic human right to have eyelasers. Removing your eyelasers is not going to impact your ability to function in society, whereas removing your eyes certainly would. That's why it's a bad faith argument to compare removing eyelasers to removing someone's hands. I think we've just got a difference of opinion here -- I don't think I'm going to convince you that it's not a terrible violation of their bodies, and you're certainly not convincing me that it's at all unjust. I simply don't have anywhere near the regard for "bodily integrity" that you do, particularly when we're talking about taking away magic powers from violent people who randomly acquired them long into their adulthood. Phenotype fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Mar 8, 2019 |
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Mar 8, 2019 20:09
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MACAROOOOOOOONS
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Mar 8, 2019 20:11
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Our constitution explicitly allows bear arms that's a pretty reasonable precedent for allowing a giant man-shark
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Mar 8, 2019 20:12
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Phenotype posted:I simply don't have anywhere near the regard for "bodily integrity" that you do, particularly when we're talking about taking away magic powers from violent people who randomly acquired them long into their adulthood. I mean...dude, this isn’t really an “agree to disagree” kind of thing, it’s the very cornerstone of any free society, that if a human being is entitled to nothing else in this world, then they are entitled to sovereignty over their own body. If you disregard that you’re basically disregarding freedom at its most fundamental level.
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Mar 8, 2019 20:13
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pile of brown posted:Our constitution explicitly allows bear arms that's a pretty reasonable precedent for allowing a giant man-shark Checkmate, atheists
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Mar 8, 2019 20:15
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Engineer the cure into some sort of time-release serum... baked into some manner of previously mentioned pastry.
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Mar 8, 2019 20:19
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I don't disagree with all the ethical arguments but we are talking about a magical contrivance for a fictional show full of basically cartoon characters. In a hypothetical real world situation where Mr. Laser Eyes was downtown attacking people with his laser eyes and the actual police had the option of 1) shooting him in the head or 2) shooting him with a tranq dart full of power removing medicine so the could be restrained and given a trial, I would vote for option 2. In the show there is a near-god who moves at light speed and can time travel who can just stop an evil meta after roughly 40 minutes of commercial interrupted shenanigans. The Flash is more concerned about creating these villain caricatures who gain miraculous powers and use them to like rob an armored truck the next day, so it makes it hard to take any kind of actual philosophical musings seriously.
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Mar 8, 2019 20:19
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Phylodox posted:I mean...dude, this isn’t really an “agree to disagree” kind of thing, it’s the very cornerstone of any free society, that if a human being is entitled to nothing else in this world, then they are entitled to sovereignty over their own body. If you disregard that you’re basically disregarding freedom at its most fundamental level. Uh, this is entirely an agree to disagree kind of thing, it has nothing to do with the cornerstones of free society. This is a silly hypothetical argument about what would be fair treatment in a world where random people stumble across the ability to shoot laser beams. I personally think sovereignty over your own body should be suspended in such a case. I don't think you're an idiot for disagreeing, but it is not fundamentally anti-freedom or whatever to have the stance that if you have a dangerous body modification and hurt other people with it, you might be forced to lose that modification. If we ever have a particle accelerator explode, then you are welcome to run against me for Senate with our competing meta law enforcement platforms.
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Mar 8, 2019 20:22
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It's only a matter of time that the cure serum is used on a member of the Team Flash.
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Mar 8, 2019 20:28
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Phenotype posted:Uh, this is entirely an agree to disagree kind of thing, it has nothing to do with the cornerstones of free society. ... You can’t just say “No” to that, man. It’s not a personally held belief. No society can be said to be free where a man does not hold dominion over his own body. The Flash is ridiculous hyperbole, yes, but it’s not so fundamentally different that this no longer applies. Cisco’s ethical stance on this is 100% valid.
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Mar 8, 2019 20:32
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Burning_Monk posted:It's only a matter of time that the cure serum is used on a member of the Team Flash. It will get used on Ralph but then it turns out he squished all his meta-juice into his thumb like that episode of Adventure Time
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Mar 8, 2019 20:39
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Phylodox posted:... I don't think anyone understands exactly what mean by "Dominion over your own body" and you aren't explaining it well. Treat me like an idiot and explain what is "body" very slowly.
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Mar 8, 2019 20:46
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Phylodox posted:... But when you commit a crime, your rights get restricted. Our difference of opinion extends to whether or not the state should be allowed to remove your powers when you use them to commit crime. And making statements that start "No society can be said to be free" doesn't make them immutably true just because of the lofty tone. "You have dominion over your own body unless you luck into magic powers and then try to kill people with them, then we can take the magic powers away" sounds pretty free to me.
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Mar 8, 2019 21:11
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You know what, gently caress you guys. I'm just gonna take my FREAKED references and go home.
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Mar 8, 2019 21:16
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Phenotype posted:But when you commit a crime, your rights get restricted. Our difference of opinion extends to whether or not the state should be allowed to remove your powers when you use them to commit crime. And making statements that start "No society can be said to be free" doesn't make them immutably true just because of the lofty tone. It's immutably true if you consider the very nature of a free society for more than a moment. The simplest, most fundamental exercise of freedom is being able to decide what happens to your body. That's bedrock. You can have all sorts of freedom beyond that, but if you don't have that first one, you're not really free. It has nothing to do with my lofty tone, one thing flows logically from the other. Besides, we know for a fact that the authorities in the Arrowverse have non-invasive, temporary methods to dampen meta's powers. The cure should only be used as exactly that, a cure for those who desire it and consent. Never preventatively or as a punishment.
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Mar 8, 2019 21:24
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Phylodox posted:It's immutably true if you consider the very nature of a free society for more than a moment. The simplest, most fundamental exercise of freedom is being able to decide what happens to your body. That's bedrock. You can have all sorts of freedom beyond that, but if you don't have that first one, you're not really free. It has nothing to do with my lofty tone, one thing flows logically from the other. I disagree.  Buddy, we're talking about violent criminals here, too. Even in the real world, their freedoms are restricted.
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Mar 8, 2019 21:33
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Phenotype posted:I disagree. The real world isn't always ethical, though, is it? And even in our fallible real world, violent criminals being subjected to unwanted medical experimentation is considered illegal and unethical.
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Mar 8, 2019 21:34
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