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I only have experience with 'theater LARP' (assigned characters, preset scenarios) in college, and generally among a club and its alumni network. Said alumni network turned out to have a sexual predator in it, and getting rid of that missing stair collapsed the LARPing group too. That being said... what was wrong there wasn't caused by nerds being nerds, but rather was exacerbated by nerds thinking that their social spheres were immune to the kind of poo poo they rightfully condemned in frats and other organizations. Which I don't think nerds are unique in thinking. Various groups insist their specific social hierarchies are somehow not given to that kind of abuse, and they're all wrong because patriarchy is a disease. Plus, all hierarchy fosters abuse, period. e: and some of the most LARP-obsessed people I know were totally principled and worked to get rid of the predatory rear end in a top hat, and continue to LARP. It's not the hobby's inherent qualities, it's the organizations that can form around any hobby.
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Mar 9, 2019 07:19
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Razorwired posted:Yeah I had a classmate in the local DR scene. There was a very predictable pattern after a quarter wherein she would get hyped for a DR weekend, present first so she could get on the road, and would invariably come back with a horror story about assault or attempted rape at the event. DR is especially bad because they make a big deal out of being 'hardcore' 24/7 horror games with no breaks or OOG space. Which leads to abusive people using their post apocalyptic horror show characters as an excuse to be abusive.
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Mar 9, 2019 12:48
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with a healthy backing of 1990s era sexual harassment
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Horror-themed LARP and roleplay in general can be a tricky thing. A friend of mine stopped/was understandably banned from running Demon after one of his sessions apparently caused a player to have a PTSD attack.
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Mar 9, 2019 14:03
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Liquid Communism posted:DR is especially bad because they make a big deal out of being 'hardcore' 24/7 horror games with no breaks or OOG space. Which leads to abusive people using their post apocalyptic horror show characters as an excuse to be abusive. I hope to never meet anyone who thinks this sort of thing is in any way a good idea.
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Mar 9, 2019 16:18
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Bieeanshee posted:I hope to never meet anyone who thinks this sort of thing is in any way a good idea. Of course I have only been in PARANOIA LARPs at cons, notable mostly for the refs having to call for everyone to freeze in place as they take sight lines to determine who got hit by stray lasers.
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Mar 10, 2019 00:21
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Bieeanshee posted:I hope to never meet anyone who thinks this sort of thing is in any way a good idea. In theory, the idea of a high stress, high exhaustion horror larp could be quite interesting. It would require a high percentage of crisis counselors and extensive emotional safety tools, but it could be done. The problem is that too many larps put in he players in a high wire act without the net.
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Mar 10, 2019 00:24
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The specific red flags are no breaks or out of game areas, I think, not the simple existence of LARP weekends.
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Mar 10, 2019 01:54
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What Darwinism said. It's not the subject matter, it's the hosed-up ~hardcore~ attitude toward player safety... or rather, its complete lack.
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Mar 10, 2019 02:13
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The idea of doing something that needs “a high percentage” of crisis counsellors on site for funsies sounds absolutely terrible Serious question, in what way is that a fun weekend? Cause I absolutely don’t get it
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Mar 10, 2019 02:18
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So what are the rules that even govern that sort of thing? If you tell the super scary wasteland raiders who come to hassle your fallout universe campfire filking group to gently caress off do they actually grab their rebar clubs and beat you up? The whole thing sounds insane.
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Mar 10, 2019 02:22
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Achmed Jones posted:Serious question, in what way is that a fun weekend? Cause I absolutely don’t get it It's fun if you're the guy role-playing Great Value Lord Humongous and pressuring a bunch of 20 year old nerds to have sex with you "in character"
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Mar 10, 2019 02:45
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Razorwired posted:It's fun if you're the guy role-playing Great Value Lord Humongous and pressuring a bunch of 20 year old nerds to have sex with you "in character" Hey, I'm told Lord Humongous is a great guy who understands the importance of consent.
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Mar 10, 2019 04:54
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Achmed Jones posted:The idea of doing something that needs “a high percentage” of crisis counsellors on site for funsies sounds absolutely terrible Not everyone derives form the same set of activities and the same set of emotional exploration. I, for one, enjoy delving deep into feelings of dread and despair and depression in a space specifically cultivated for it, as a means of achieving catharsis or self-knowledge, or just as a way of exploring trauma in a space that is safe and open for that sort of interactions. Again, I know that’s not for everyone, which is why different games need to offer different things for different people. As an example in tabletop, Malignant is a Polaris hack focusing on a loved one dying of cancer. Not for everyone and might sound absolutely atrocious to you, but to me, in the right group, the strong emotional reaction it could create would be worthwhile in and of itself. andrew smash posted:So what are the rules that even govern that sort of thing? If you tell the super scary wasteland raiders who come to hassle your fallout universe campfire filking group to gently caress off do they actually grab their rebar clubs and beat you up? The whole thing sounds insane. For one, I wouldn’t underestimate the power of social pressuring. Everything is on the same page because everyone has been indoctrinated and even if people feel differently, they don’t want to be the one person reacting differently, being different, being judged for that difference and suffering social ostracism from their favored social group. In addition, there’s an economic incentive. Players who refuse to follow the rules can lose their characters, characters that they have invested a large quantity of money into, both in terms of costuming and props and in terms of buying xp.
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Mar 10, 2019 05:01
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Meinberg posted:Not everyone derives form the same set of activities and the same set of emotional exploration. I, for one, enjoy delving deep into feelings of dread and despair and depression in a space specifically cultivated for it, as a means of achieving catharsis or self-knowledge, or just as a way of exploring trauma in a space that is safe and open for that sort of interactions. Again, I know that’s not for everyone, which is why different games need to offer different things for different people. As an example in tabletop, Malignant is a Polaris hack focusing on a loved one dying of cancer. Not for everyone and might sound absolutely atrocious to you, but to me, in the right group, the strong emotional reaction it could create would be worthwhile in and of itself. The issue here is that the social environment they've set up to ostensibly explore these sorts of emotions and experiences sounds unsafe as poo poo. Like, you've noted this, but it bears reiterating that the actual problem isn't with the idea of a "hardcore LARP weekend" if it's being handled well, but whatever the gently caress this is does not sound handled well in the slightest. And to be perfectly honest, given historical precedent, I doubt I'd trust any LARP organization to safely and effectively attempt the sort of thing you're describing. The odds of it being done in a way that isn't a disaster simply aren't very good.
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Mar 10, 2019 05:47
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Meinberg posted:As an example in tabletop, Malignant is a Polaris hack focusing on a loved one dying of cancer. Not for everyone and might sound absolutely atrocious to you, but to me, in the right group, the strong emotional reaction it could create would be worthwhile in and of itself. You're absolutely right about it sounding absolutely atrocious; and I want to just like, take a moment to say that this is aimed more at the creators of that hack than at you but my younger sister died of cancer on aug 1 last year at age 34. gently caress turning that into a loving game.
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Mar 10, 2019 06:22
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Achmed Jones posted:The idea of doing something that needs “a high percentage” of crisis counsellors on site for funsies sounds absolutely terrible Most LARP events don't try to be as 'hardcore' as staying in-character the whole time, like a healthy event will have set aside areas for light RP and areas or cues that you can give that indicate you're completely out of the game. DR seems to be crazily unhealthy and tries to force people to be in-character all the time with no even OOC safe zones which is loving ludicrous and a ridiculously easy field for predators, and they're trying to absolve themselves ahead of time which says it all honestly.
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Mar 10, 2019 06:45
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So like, what's the appeal there? Is it in fact that some guy gets to be Great Value Lord Humungus and sex a bunch of people in costumes? Is it supposed to be like historical re-enactment?
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Mar 10, 2019 08:16
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I imagine some people want an Extreme Experience without realising that red-lining your own psyche is a terrible idea.
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Mar 10, 2019 08:29
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Nessus posted:So like, what's the appeal there? Is it in fact that some guy gets to be Great Value Lord Humungus and sex a bunch of people in costumes? Is it supposed to be like historical re-enactment? I googled Dystopia Rising and it looks like it's some sort of post-apocalyptic zombie survival thing so I think the appeal is that it's as close as the people really unironically enthused about the prospect of a zombie apocalypse can get to living out their fantasies short of going on a mass shooting spree.
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Mar 10, 2019 08:29
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Meinberg posted:I, for one, enjoy delving deep into feelings of dread and despair and depression in a space specifically cultivated for it, as a means of achieving catharsis or self-knowledge, or just as a way of exploring trauma in a space that is safe and open for that sort of interactions. It's disgusting and bewildering to me that someone could reimagine the worst things in life as a fun amusement park ride, then exit the park thinking "yep, I explored depression." Please don't take this as personal against you, but for god's sake don't participate in trivializing things like that.
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Mar 10, 2019 13:32
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Yeah, there's a reason I came to the conclusion to any LARP that isn't invite-only or otherwise has a clearing house is pretty much leaving an open door for predators. Here in the UK a LARP which isn't invite-only or doesn't a strong equality, diversity and abuse prevention policy doesn't get my attendance. Even then people drop the ball sometimes on enforcing that, but at the same time at least having a policy puts you above events which actively thumb their nose at the concept of having one. And if known missing stairs accumulate at a particular event that's usually a sign that the policy isn't being implemented.
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Mar 10, 2019 16:05
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Warthur posted:Here in the UK a LARP which isn't invite-only or doesn't a strong equality, diversity and abuse prevention policy doesn't get my attendance. Even then people drop the ball sometimes on enforcing that, but at the same time at least having a policy puts you above events which actively thumb their nose at the concept of having one. And if known missing stairs accumulate at a particular event that's usually a sign that the policy isn't being implemented. Yeah. Bear in mind back when I was involved in running LARPs we just... didn't have an awareness how to deal with those issues, or even that much of an awareness of them. Which isn't a excuse, but being educated on these issues just wasn't widespread in the community at the time. It was decades ago, and as long as somebody wasn't doing anything illegal and I didn't get direct complaints, we didn't know quite what to do. Since we played in public spaces, we didn't have the control to easily exclude people, which was another mistake. Granted, I wasn't involved in actually running most of these games, but I was often close to those who were. Some people did go beyond the pale enough to get banned, but they really had to make public asses of themselves or actively do something illegal / disruptive to manage it. The ultimate solution when I ran with a friend was to run invite-only and exclude people who weren't of age, eventually, even if they were friends. That was probably the most successful game I was aware of on a creative level, as by that point we knew a lot of the pitfalls and avoided them.
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Mar 10, 2019 17:03
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moths posted:It's disgusting and bewildering to me that someone could reimagine the worst things in life as a fun amusement park ride, then exit the park thinking "yep, I explored depression." How do you see novels or fictional works in general that deal with depression or other hard topics?
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Mar 10, 2019 17:44
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Halat Hisar was a Finnish-Palestinian LARP about the occupation of Palestine. http://nordicrpg.fi/piiritystila/ IMO, difficult subject matters can be explored in elfgames, but it needs to be thoughtful and respectful.
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Mar 10, 2019 17:58
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Joe Slowboat posted:How do you see novels or fictional works in general that deal with depression or other hard topics? Novels and fictional works are a slightly different beast than playing a game about it. I could sit down tomorrow and start a novel to deal with my feelings about my sister's death. It would almost certainly be cathartic for me, and for others in similar situations my exploration of the grief and my own responses to it might help process their own. It can be like a signpost. Making it into a game is misery tourism. I was put out of commission when my sister died, hardcore. We were close. The cancer went undiagnosed because of doctor incompetence, until literally a week before she was gone. It had metastasized from her ovaries to her lungs and brain before they knew what the hell was going on. I was depressed before she died. I became useless after. We're talking, I'm just now starting to be able to function enough to go to work part time regularly again. We're talking, a few weeks ago I passed back through suicidal ideation and thought, oh good, the antidepressants are starting to work. I lost my faith entirely, going from agnostic to true atheist. Sharing my story helps me, because I can navigate my feelings better if I express them. It helps others, because they can see that yes, the world can keep turning. Misery is not a game. Depression is not a game. Turning it into one is a tasteless and rather offensive act because instead of being a signpost or a catharsis for survivors, it becomes a trigger, a reliving of the worst periods of our lives, for little more than entertainment purposes. It could be used as a tool to help survivors, but that's not what it is and we all know it. So, without rancor, gently caress your what-aboutism.
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Mar 10, 2019 18:09
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I was asking a question, not trying to suggest a 'gotcha,' because I've seen different opinions on the topic. I'm sorry for your loss.
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Mar 10, 2019 18:17
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Molly, playing a game to explore part of the human condition - mourning and loss, the experiences Polaris trades in as a storygame - isn't misery tourism. It's telling a narrative about a dark part of life, but that doesn't make it invalid. There's a distinction between something that is personally distasteful to you and the idea of a game in general. There's nothing wrong with storygames exploring dark contexts, narratives, and experiences, but part of writing those well is stuff like the X Card and understanding not everyone wants to explore those ideas.
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Mar 10, 2019 18:25
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MollyMetroid posted:Novels and fictional works are a slightly different beast than playing a game about it. I really don't see a difference between a written work and a game here. A game can be something like That dragon, cancer which is game made by two parents whose kid died of cancer that tells about their experiences during that time.
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Mar 10, 2019 18:25
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For context, I looked it up.
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Mar 10, 2019 18:35
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MollyMetroid posted:Novels and fictional works are a slightly different beast than playing a game about it. Misery tourism is having fun by watching others be miserable. This is seeking an emotional experience for... not fun exactly, but... satisfaction? I legitimately don’t know how to describe to you how the seeking of a strong emotional experience, even a strongly negative or painful one, can be intensely gratifying and in some cases even help people deal with emotional problems. I *think* the miscomunication here is that you don’t understand why someone would play a game for any reason other than to be happy and have fun, and I also think we probably have a different enough relationship with the very idea of having emotions that I’m going to fail to describe to you why people would play a depressing video game or rpg or something in the first place.
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Mar 10, 2019 18:48
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jakodee posted:Misery tourism is having fun by watching others be miserable. This is seeking an emotional experience for... not fun exactly, but... satisfaction? I legitimately don’t know how to describe to you how the seeking of a strong emotional experience, even a strongly negative or painful one, can be intensely gratifying and in some cases even help people deal with emotional problems. I *think* the miscomunication here is that you don’t understand why someone would play a game for any reason other than to be happy and have fun, and I also think we probably have a different enough relationship with the very idea of having emotions that I’m going to fail to describe to you why people would play a depressing video game or rpg or something in the first place. I *think* the miscommunication here is that you don't know how to read words. I get seeking a cathartic experience through roleplaying games. I do it myself. What's happening here is that I am still deep in grief and kind of lashing out at the idea of someone using the same thing that has shut me down for seven loving months as a bit of catharsis; when I initially responded I had not bothered to seek any information about the game in question and didn't therefore know that it was the author's own form of grieving and catharsis. Thanks for the loving condescension though, that's real loving helpful in any situation.
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Mar 10, 2019 18:53
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Everybody's going to have their own line in regards to this kind of thing, and that line is going to be curved and arbitrary based on our personal experiences. Role-playing games and be a way to experience things we wouldn't; most often this comes down to adventure and empowerment, of course, because that feels great. And that's not to discount the value of that, it can be very helpful to have that outlet. Even fantasy helltraps are part of this, as the "I survived" notion is a different flavor of the above. Using RPGs to explore things that are more troubling is less popular, but still valid, but there's a reason you see it more often than therapy than entertainment. That's not to say it can't be valid thing to explore outside of mental health, to help understand things that are difficult to understand otherwise, but what breaches the line between exploration, education, and entertainment is always going to be a personal one outside of extremes. I'm not personally convinced it can act as catharsis, but I think it can provide awareness and understanding.
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Mar 10, 2019 19:04
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MollyMetroid posted:I *think* the miscommunication here is that you don't know how to read words. I get seeking a cathartic experience through roleplaying games. I do it myself. What's happening here is that I am still deep in grief and kind of lashing out at the idea of someone using the same thing that has shut me down for seven loving months as a bit of catharsis; when I initially responded I had not bothered to seek any information about the game in question and didn't therefore know that it was the author's own form of grieving and catharsis. I wish to apologize for anything hurtful I said, but I am afraid I still don't know what I said that was hurtful or how I misinterpreted your words. To be clear: this is not a bullshit "I'm sorry your OFFENDED snowflake". I'm legitimately both sorry and ignorant of what in particular I said that was out of line. If you want me to drop this conversation entirely I will. If you would be willing to help me try to understand your points, I would appreciate it i you could explain what your initial negative reaction to Malignant was specifically a reaction too. Again: feel free to tell me to just stop asking about this and drop the line of conversation.
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Mar 10, 2019 19:09
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Games do not have to be fun. Just because something says "roleplaying game" on the cover does not mean it should be escapist popcorn trash that has to shy away from engaging seriously with serious subjects. It is entirely possible and genuinely important to make games for the express purpose of communicating ideas and making people who play them experience and understand other points of view. Caveat: this doesn't mean you won't end up with 99% of games that try that being bad or exploitative or both.
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Mar 10, 2019 19:19
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Lemon-Lime posted:Games do not have to be fun. Counterpoint: games are toys for children.
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Mar 10, 2019 19:34
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The Deleter posted:Counterpoint: games are toys for children. Counterpoint: 'Game' is such a wide category that any specific claim about games, overall, is more likely to be incorrect than not. There are games that are not in any way for children (and there are toys that are not in any way for children as well). 'Game' - even the much more specific 'tabletop role-playing game' - is a formal category that allows for a wide variety of purposes, because the defining qualities of the category don't have anything to do with the emotional purpose of the game. I think it's fair to say that most, if not all, games are intended to evoke some kind of emotional response, but that emotional response doesn't have to be what's often called 'fun.'
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Mar 10, 2019 19:42
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jakodee posted:I wish to apologize for anything hurtful I said, but I am afraid I still don't know what I said that was hurtful or how I misinterpreted your words. To be clear: this is not a bullshit "I'm sorry your OFFENDED snowflake". I'm legitimately both sorry and ignorant of what in particular I said that was out of line. If you want me to drop this conversation entirely I will. If you would be willing to help me try to understand your points, I would appreciate it i you could explain what your initial negative reaction to Malignant was specifically a reaction too. Again: feel free to tell me to just stop asking about this and drop the line of conversation. This is a totally different situation, and also I don't want to speak for MollyMetroid, but I'm gently caress. Right. I'm trans. I just transitioned, a few months ago. And I feel like there's a big difference between, say, me "playing" Avery Alder's Brave Sparrow to work through some of my issues -- which I haven't done, yet, but feels like it might be helpful -- and some hypothetical cis rear end in a top hat's RPG equivalent of loving Girl. (Don't watch Girl.) And in most media? There are a lot more Girls than there are Brave Sparrows. So if somebody tries to sell me on a game meant to explore "oh man, how hard it is to be trans, seriously", a game I've never heard of by a designer I've never heard of, pushed by people I have no reason to believe are trans, I'm going to be pretty loving suspicious of it at first.
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Mar 10, 2019 19:43
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Alhireth-Hotep posted:This is a totally different situation, and also I don't want to speak for MollyMetroid, but I'm Sup trans sister! Yeah, I agree about being suspicious at first. I actually looked up malignant for myself specifically because I realized that I made certain assumptions about its source that I hadn't checked before going off. I lashed out without really thinking about it. But you absolutely nail the frame of mind I was in.
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Mar 10, 2019 19:55
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MollyMetroid posted:Sup trans sister! Awesome. I wasn't totally sure I was right, but I could easily imagine making basically that sequence of posts, in another situation. (And thanks!)
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Mar 10, 2019 20:05
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Issues like depression or grief can't be stuffed into a tidy table-top experience, and it's insulting to pretend that it can be. Without going too personal, what most defines those experiences (to me) is that they are both real and inescapable. A core part of what makes them so awful is that you don't get to put it away at the end of a session. At the time, you feel like you can never put it away. Joe Slowboat posted:How do you see novels or fictional works in general that deal with depression or other hard topics? Fictional works frequently can be (and often have been) clumsy attempts to co-opt the gravity of real tragedy. Consider a lovely drama set against the background of The Holocaust or a romance grafted into 9/11. Often it's that, but against mental health. It's also harmful to put misleading depictions out there. People will avoid getting help when their experience doesn't look like the expected, televised one. And I don't mean that depression or grief should be off-limits in the context of fiction or a game. Of course a Queen can show grief when the King dies. But understand that it's a fictionalized, storybook narrative grief. Pretending and playing at it is like driving a wheelchair through Walmart to understand disability. If you're genuinely interested in learning about depression, volunteer somewhere. Talk to someone who suffers from it. Read a memoir. And if you want to know more because you think you might be suffering from it, look into groups like NAMI or maybe talk to a therapist. Your health plan probably covers it thanks to the ACA, or maybe you live in a country that cares about its citizens.
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Mar 10, 2019 20:28
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