|
Darwinism posted:Bleak settings can be great. Rape to convey bleakness is a cheap move by lovely authors to evoke emotion when they fail to otherwise. I was responding to ARB, not you. I don’t disagree that misery porn is lovely escapism. E: this post is a terrible snipe and is not worth two points.
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 05:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 12:29 |
|
|
Len posted:This conversation reminded me of a book I tried to read back in third or 4th grade called Lord Fouls Bane. I remembered nothing beyond the title but apparently the main character decides he's in a coma and rapes someone according to Wikipedia so good on me for quitting that to read Outcast of Redwall instead I thought the core ideas of the world were really cool, but Covenant is such a piece of poo poo it ruins it. I forced myself to finish the (first! There is a second!) trilogy and the dude doesn't even rise to the level of anti-hero; he's just miserable. And he doesn't really get any better.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 05:54
|
|
|
Arivia posted:I was responding to ARB, not you. I don’t disagree that misery porn is lovely escapism. Well to get back to your topic it is kind of funny that Greyhawk turned so hard towards Heroes Doing Heroics in later editions. I think it's the wargame roots that leads to the bleakness in earlier stuff - the party aren't the only FIghters or whatnot for miles, they're just another Fighting Man among thousands of equally poorly painted peers.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 06:07
|
|
|
dwarf74 posted:Oh man. Yeah. gently caress that series. Third.there's a third trilogy, maybe more. Donaldson went back to the well.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 06:23
|
|
|
NinjaDebugger posted:Third.there's a third trilogy, maybe more. Donaldson went back to the well. Aw gently caress, of course there was.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 06:33
|
|
|
Don't forget Donaldson's Gap Cycle books. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 10:52
|
|
|
I read two-thirds of the first Covenant book a few years ago on a positive recommendation. I'm delighted to hear I didn't miss out on anything by giving up.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 11:04
|
|
|
I'm glad my YA fantasy started with Tamora Pierce and Emily Rodda, then Tolkien. Feels like I dodged a lotta bullets.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 11:47
|
|
|
Young adult fantasy peaked at the Abhorsen trilogy. Those books owned. Bell necromancers, river passage of death, the disreputable dog, it had everything.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 12:02
|
|
|
I was born in '74 so I didn't dodge hardly any bullets at all. Donaldson, Piers Anthony, Rosenberg, etc. There simply wasn't all that much fantasy to read, and it was all mixed in with the sci-fi. Mind you, I got some good stuff too - Susan Cooper, Lloyd Alexander, Terry Pratchett, etc. - but I grew up in a distinctly pre-Harry-Potter literary world.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 15:21
|
|
|
dwarf74 posted:I was born in '74 so I didn't dodge hardly any bullets at all. Donaldson, Piers Anthony, Rosenberg, etc. There simply wasn't all that much fantasy to read, and it was all mixed in with the sci-fi. I’m a few years younger, but had purchased the first Thomas Covenant book when I overheard some other nerds joking extensively about the rape in the opening chapter, so I left it in the library and never looked back. One bullet dodged!
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 17:54
|
|
|
I am old and dodged no billets. But I would be interested to hear what books you do recommend, preferably books available on audio.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 18:49
|
|
|
Ropes4u posted:I am old and dodged no billets. Discworld, any
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 18:55
|
|
|
Did any of you read Gene Wolfe's Wizard Knight books? It's a guy from modern America who finds himself in a fantasy world like Thomas Covenant, but it's Gene Wolfe so it's not poo poo and the main character doesn't rape anyone. It's not top tier Wolfe but it has some cool fantasy ideas about planes and gods and poo poo that would translate really well to a D&D type of game.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 19:03
|
|
|
Jimbozig posted:Did any of you read Gene Wolfe's Wizard Knight books? It's a guy from modern America who finds himself in a fantasy world like Thomas Covenant, but it's Gene Wolfe so it's not poo poo and the main character doesn't rape anyone. It's not top tier Wolfe but it has some cool fantasy ideas about planes and gods and poo poo that would translate really well to a D&D type of game. Gene Wolfe rules. Shadow of the torturer is great too
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 19:58
|
|
|
Jimbozig posted:Did any of you read Gene Wolfe's Wizard Knight books? It's a guy from modern America who finds himself in a fantasy world like Thomas Covenant, but it's Gene Wolfe so it's not poo poo and the main character doesn't rape anyone. It's not top tier Wolfe but it has some cool fantasy ideas about planes and gods and poo poo that would translate really well to a D&D type of game. Gene Wolfe is great, but I would still point out that Severian (from his most widely recognized series) is absolutely a rapist among the many other atrocities he's responsible for. I almost mentioned him as a point of comparison to Donaldson as an example of how to write a monstrously evil and narcissistic protagonist without being crass or leering about it, but it seems strange to suggest that Wolfe shies away from that kind of content.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 20:30
|
|
|
I remember Severian getting his end away on a number of occasions, but I don't specifically remember any non-consensual stuff. Unless Wolfe's delivery of Severian's narrative just flowers over it and I missed the boat. He's definitely not a nice person and a tremendous example of an antihero.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 21:26
|
|
|
Ironically the rape occurred in a boat. (In Claw of the Conciliator). Severian is a fascinating thesis on a person's capacity for change, in that he starts as the worst possible person (while being weirdly naive in a certain sense; he's a transparent vessel for the culture around him and also he was raised to be a torturer) and slowly develops into someone else. While never really developing any capacity for self-awareness. E: if you want 'Severian but it's about a painfully decent guy learning to be underhanded' the Long Sun books are a good read, if not the masterpiece that the Book of the New Sun is. Soldier of the Mist is also fantastic.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 21:38
|
|
|
I'm still glad that my introduction to fantasy was David Eddings. He may have set out to do an explicitly by-the-numbers take on the Hero's Journey, but it was a fun read. I feel a lot less good about having read a bunch of Xanth books back in the day.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 22:02
|
|
|
Subjunctive posted:I’m a few years younger, but had purchased the first Thomas Covenant book when I overheard some other nerds joking extensively about the rape in the opening chapter, so I left it in the library and never looked back. One bullet dodged! Donaldson had another short series doing the whole stranger from another world thing that I can remember 3 details about : All magic was based on mirrors, they actually wanted a badass space marine instead of an emotionally unstable girl and they get him later but he freaks out and shoots up the palace, and the protagonist is constantly threatened with sexual assault. the only time she isn't is when the bad guy who captured her is gay and "prefers male meat". dude needs to cut back on that stuff.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 22:07
|
|
|
Does a connecticut yankee in king arthur's court count as being part of this genre of story
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 22:17
|
|
|
Joe Slowboat posted:Ironically the rape occurred in a boat. (In Claw of the Conciliator). Oh, wow, yeah, I remember that exact scene and did not pick up on that.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 22:17
|
|
|
dwarf74 posted:I was born in '74 so I didn't dodge hardly any bullets at all. Donaldson, Piers Anthony, Rosenberg, etc. There simply wasn't all that much fantasy to read, and it was all mixed in with the sci-fi. Man I loved reading the Xanth books back in high school(found like a dozen of them at a garage sale the summer before my freshmen year), though outside of that trial in the first book I don't remember anything particularly offensive about them
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 22:38
|
|
|
Zeerust posted:Oh, wow, yeah, I remember that exact scene and did not pick up on that. Neither did Severian, at the time. Meanwhile, the only good thing about Xanth books is that I stumbled across Mercedes Lackey by reading a book they co-wrote, and realized the parts I liked were by her, and the parts I was unmoved by were the Piers Anthony parts.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 22:58
|
|
|
drrockso20 posted:Man I loved reading the Xanth books back in high school(found like a dozen of them at a garage sale the summer before my freshmen year), though outside of that trial in the first book I don't remember anything particularly offensive about them
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 22:59
|
|
|
drrockso20 posted:Man I loved reading the Xanth books back in high school(found like a dozen of them at a garage sale the summer before my freshmen year), though outside of that trial in the first book I don't remember anything particularly offensive about them
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 23:02
|
|
|
drrockso20 posted:Man I loved reading the Xanth books back in high school(found like a dozen of them at a garage sale the summer before my freshmen year), though outside of that trial in the first book I don't remember anything particularly offensive about them They are so much worse than you can imagine.
|
|
#
?
Mar 10, 2019 23:27
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/SystemMastery/status/1104814490841866240 https://twitter.com/SystemMastery/status/1104823191443132416
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2019 00:10
|
|
|
FirstAidKite posted:Does a connecticut yankee in king arthur's court count as being part of this genre of story It's literally the invention of the genre. Albeit preceding the modern invention of swords & sorcery fantasy, but inasmuch as the king arthur myth is a fantasy legend anyway, I think it counts in that respect too. I'm close to the same age as dwarf, so I also did not miss those bullets. My parents actually handed me xanth. It was a different age. But I can also still recommend, from my 1980s-90s reading list, the fantasy novels from CJ Cherryh, and for YA fiction, I think Robert Asprin's Myth books probably hold up.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2019 00:30
|
|
|
Ropes4u posted:I am old and dodged no billets. I personally recommend everything Abhorsen related. And their audiobooks are read by Tim Curry, which is great.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2019 00:32
|
|
|
Lawrence Watt-Evans is decent fantasy going back into the 80s--he's not quite 'cozy' but he's not rapey or gritty or edgy or any of those things, and he tends to include relatively lighthearted elements in his stories. Ithnalin's Restoration is more recent but it's about a wizard's young apprentice trying to put the wizard's body back together after an accident split his personality among a number of household objects that promptly animated and ran off. It's set in his long-running Esthar world, which first appeared in The Misenchanted Sword. I also read a few Xanths, dug out of the public library's limited selections. Also a lot of FR and Dragonlance novels. I suppose reading a lot of crap is helpful for developing one's taste and understanding one's reactions but lord I read a lot of crap.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2019 01:03
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:I'm close to the same age as dwarf, so I also did not miss those bullets. My parents actually handed me xanth. It was a different age. I think most fantasy back then had weird, embarrassing sex stuff tbh. But yes, the Myth series by Asprin is one of the good ones, and it's a shame it isn't more often remembered. I still have those!
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2019 01:21
|
|
|
Asprin's kind of funny for me, because I read some of the Myth books and then stumbled across a standalone novel he did called The Bug Wars. The myth books were kind of corny in their humor and a bit towards the melodramatic, but otherwise are fine. The Bug Wars is...not that. Not that its rapey or anything (that I remember, its been a long time), but its a grim story essentially about how megacorps manage to take over in the future and has mercenaries burying themselves alive and other weirdness. It was certainly not what 12 year old me was expecting after reading about a fantasy land full of cheesy puns and goofy capers.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2019 01:28
|
|
|
The Pern books are all about dragon riders who bone whenever their dragons are feeling sexy, IIRC, but that's literally all I can recall of those books 30 years later. Are they bad? I bet they're bad. There was that fantasy series where they're all catholics, uhh, I can't find it easily because searching for fantasy with catholics just gets a lot of writing about catholic fantasy authors. Ring a bell for anyone?
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2019 02:37
|
|
|
senrath posted:I personally recommend everything Abhorsen related. And their audiobooks are read by Tim Curry, which is great. oh dang I need to get onto that, I'm just imagining him pronounce the Disreputable Dog over and over in my head and smiling
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2019 02:44
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:The Pern books are all about dragon riders who bone whenever their dragons are feeling sexy, IIRC, but that's literally all I can recall of those books 30 years later. Are they bad? I bet they're bad. Camber of Culdi?
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2019 02:48
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:The Pern books are all about dragon riders who bone whenever their dragons are feeling sexy, IIRC, but that's literally all I can recall of those books 30 years later. Are they bad? I bet they're bad. The Warlock in Spite of Himself and its sequels by uhhhh Stasheff. Not great, suuuuper Catholic, though it did give us St Vidicon of Cathode. Also reminded of Master of the Five Magics and its sequel. B-tier I thought, but basic magic-with-rules puzzle solving, no rape (that I recall, been yeeeeears) occamsnailfile fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Mar 11, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2019 02:49
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:Camber of Culdi? Yes! Camber/Deryni novels. Katherine Kurtz. My mom and older sister read like 20 of them, I think I read two or three. occamsnailfile posted:The Warlock in Spite of Himself and it’s sequels by uhhhh Stasheff. Not great, suuuuper Catholic, though it did give us St Vidicon of Cathode. Pretty sure I read that, have zero memory of what it's about.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2019 02:51
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:The Pern books are all about dragon riders who bone whenever their dragons are feeling sexy, IIRC, but that's literally all I can recall of those books 30 years later. Are they bad? I bet they're bad. Anne McCaffrey is... just google her name and "tent peg" and you'll find out how she thinks homosexuality works.
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2019 02:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 12:29 |
|
|
Freudian posted:Anne McCaffrey is... just google her name and "tent peg" and you'll find out how she thinks homosexuality works. Dammit I wanted to be the person to talk about tent pegs but by god your name is perfect for it
|
|
#
?
Mar 11, 2019 03:07
|
|
