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juche avocado posted:the us civil war binch that's what he said
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Mar 12, 2019 08:10
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The Glumslinger posted:Yeah, any world war 3 is going to be hell for the countries on which the battles are actually fought. We've been lucky that we haven't had to fight a major war in the US since the mechanization of war. Though honestly, it would be a loving miracle if a real WW3 happens that involves bombing of the participants (ie Russia/China/US/EU/India/Iran) and no nukes get thrown around. I have trouble imagining a case where China bombs a US city that doesn't result in us launching a shitload of nukes, so I personally think this is all just posturing I'm 5 pages late and dont like being the um actually guy but generally the ACW is considered the first mechanized war, like a small scale ww1, because it had everything besides tanks and aircraft. howitzers, gatling guns, etc. the only reason it didnt turn into endless trench warfare was a population and productive capacity difference combined with machine guns basically being an artillery piece that was hard to quickly aim. but you had the same problem of railroads letting you move around just quickly enough to shove tons of troops into a blender
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Mar 12, 2019 09:39
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but yeah speaking from experience just a global or at least North American NIPRNET (unclassified military intranet) outage would totally collapse the Air Force's logistics chain and probably the Navy and Army's too within hours. Someone like me who bothered to think about what I'd do in that situation could probably figure it out but I'm sure theres units out there who'd realize they no longer have a copy of the flying schedule and would have a mental breakdown, so instead of planning maintenance and fueling and cargo up to days in advance it'd all be 'whenever someone remembers to find out or when the plane gets in UHF range'. The procedures for what to do in a complete digital command and control loss exist, but I've never heard of anyone exercising it let alone keeping a checklist handy that didnt just day 'relocate to alternate location with working network'
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Mar 12, 2019 09:53
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During the Korean War the Chinese were nearly able to drive the US and UN forces out of the peninsula entirely. And that was at a time period when their industrial base was so underdeveloped they lacked the capacity to build a single tank. What do you think they could do now? i say swears online posted:that's what he said The Union literally ran advertisements in places like Ireland and Germany promising Western land for anyone willing to sign up and fight in our Civil War. Hundreds of thousands of volunteers were found that way. We've always outsourced our fighting.
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Mar 12, 2019 10:53
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KaptainKrunk posted:can't wait for gmt games mr. president starring trpmp lmao i remember when they announced that game and talked about how it's focused on foreign affairs because that's the one area where a modern president can actually push their agenda, good job barry
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Mar 12, 2019 11:19
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HerraS posted:lol americans cant win a war unless they can outproduce their enemies five to one and get someone else to die in droves This seems like a really good strategy tho?? Having more poo poo and less dead soldiers is like the entire goal of most warfare
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Mar 12, 2019 11:40
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the usa is amazingly bad at war despite basing their entire cultural identity around it fortunately for them win or lose it doesn't really matter, it's just to feed the mic and keep the grift going
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Mar 12, 2019 11:45
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Moist von Lipwig posted:i mostly agree with you with the caveat that biotech is, indeed, developing rapidly and will probably be the forefront of all kinds of horrors in the next major war. AI/ML on the other hand, has hit huge stumbling blocks, largely around the same bottlenecks that traditional computing hardware has. maybe there'll be some big breakthroughs in quantum computing that'll change things but right now it's a lot of hype with little to show for it. Biotech advancement coming up with some new types of bioweapons will still be just as problematic after their advancements as they were before. Like, how do you stop bioweapons from becoming an uncontrollable epidemic, and how do you prevent the political backlash by using bioweapons from doing more harm than the use of the weapons? What's to stop a biowar from going nuclear? There's a lot of supposition that these advancements will be paradigm-changing revolutions in doctrine, but it's just as likely that those advancements won't mean anything because you won't even be able to use them.
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Mar 12, 2019 12:17
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Biotech advancement coming up with some new types of bioweapons will still be just as problematic after their advancements as they were before. Like, how do you stop bioweapons from becoming an uncontrollable epidemic, and how do you prevent the political backlash by using bioweapons from doing more harm than the use of the weapons? What's to stop a biowar from going nuclear? There's a lot of supposition that these advancements will be paradigm-changing revolutions in doctrine, but it's just as likely that those advancements won't mean anything because you won't even be able to use them. 
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Mar 12, 2019 12:33
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Larry Parrish posted:I'm 5 pages late and dont like being the um actually guy but generally the ACW is considered the first mechanized war, like a small scale ww1, because it had everything besides tanks and aircraft. howitzers, gatling guns, etc. the only reason it didnt turn into endless trench warfare was a population and productive capacity difference combined with machine guns basically being an artillery piece that was hard to quickly aim. but you had the same problem of railroads letting you move around just quickly enough to shove tons of troops into a blender even though it didn't end in trench warfare, you can see over the course of the war, battle after battle, troops start digging deeper and deeper fortifications and end up fighting in trenches in some of the late battles
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Mar 12, 2019 13:16
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Larry Parrish posted:I'm 5 pages late and dont like being the um actually guy but generally the ACW is considered the first mechanized war, like a small scale ww1, because it had everything besides tanks and aircraft. howitzers, gatling guns, etc. the only reason it didnt turn into endless trench warfare was a population and productive capacity difference combined with machine guns basically being an artillery piece that was hard to quickly aim. but you had the same problem of railroads letting you move around just quickly enough to shove tons of troops into a blender "trench warfare ww1" really refers to "strategic" trench warfare that ran on the western front. On the eastern front WWI there was no strategic trench warfare because the front was too wide. The ACW can't turn into that at a strategic level (though ppl dug trenches at tactical level) because the front runs from texas to the atlantic and it's too hard to entrench the whole thing. It's a lot more like eastern front WW1 than western front.
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Mar 12, 2019 16:13
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Dreylad posted:even though it didn't end in trench warfare, you can see over the course of the war, battle after battle, troops start digging deeper and deeper fortifications and end up fighting in trenches in some of the late battles yeah Petersburg is generally considered to be trench warfare par excellence before WW1 but that was largely intentional on Grant's part as a way of pinning down Lee's army and destroying it
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Mar 12, 2019 16:13
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The ACW was the first industrialized war but it was not the first mechanized. WW1 was the first real example of truly using machines in combat with tanks, tracked carriers, and airplanes (honorary shout out to the russo-japan war).
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Mar 12, 2019 16:36
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Mech-posting at 85k feet above redacted while I await further instruction from Simperador Trump ii
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Mar 12, 2019 17:00
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I'm very excited for the US to lose ww3
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Mar 12, 2019 17:04
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Mantis42 posted:the Union literally ran advertisements in places like Ireland and Germany promising Western land for anyone willing to sign up and fight in our Civil War. Hundreds of thousands of volunteers were found that way. We've always outsourced our fighting. I'm about to go look this up but before I do I'm registering that "hundreds of thousands" strains credulity w/ me — so that i can come back and what I assume will be my "jeez ok that checks out??" post can have a bit more weight side note i suppose you can technically refer to that as "outsourcing" but there's a huge difference between hiring foreign regiments to fight on your own land with your own citizens and, say, waltzing in during the last movements of WWI and claiming all the glory, yeah? at least i think it's a difference worthy of a different word (would you call hiring foreign nationals and relocating them to Missouri to work call center jobs outsourcing? I wouldn't  )edit: not moving goalposts & I didn't know there was active recruitment as described but separately from that I'm quibbling over outsourcing as a word edit also: having a hard time finding something that distinguishes between recent immigrants, immigrants, and literal i-moved-here-for-the-war immigrants hundreds of thousands (more than or at least in the neighborhood of 200,000  ) seems like too much tho
juche avocado has issued a correction as of 19:30 on Mar 12, 2019 |
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Mar 12, 2019 19:11
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Mantis42 posted:During the Korean War the Chinese were nearly able to drive the US and UN forces out of the peninsula entirely. And that was at a time period when their industrial base was so underdeveloped they lacked the capacity to build a single tank. What do you think they could do now? Also are you trying to imply that the Chinese are genetically good at fighting wars or something? quote:The Union literally ran advertisements in places like Ireland and Germany promising Western land for anyone willing to sign up and fight in our Civil War. Hundreds of thousands of volunteers were found that way. We've always outsourced our fighting. This is actual racist confederate propaganda btw, one of the core confederate propaganda arguments is that they were "real protestant americans" fighting against untermenschen unamerican Catholic Irish immigrants Typo has issued a correction as of 19:31 on Mar 12, 2019 |
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Mar 12, 2019 19:29
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Typo posted:This is actual racist confederate propaganda btw, one of the core confederate propaganda arguments is that they were "real protestant americans" fighting against untermenschen unamerican Catholic Irish immigrants Ireland lmao that owns and that explains a lot of what I've seen in quickly looking this up also seems pretty clear 2 me that mantis42 is saying China had & has a lot of soldiers. there's a lot of bending over backwards required to take the "wow are you claiming the chinese are genetically superior" reading there over the much more obvious one, imo juche avocado has issued a correction as of 19:34 on Mar 12, 2019 |
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Mar 12, 2019 19:30
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Typo posted:This is actual racist confederate propaganda btw, one of the core confederate propaganda arguments is that they were "real protestant americans" fighting against untermenschen unamerican Catholic Irish immigrants So was it a lie, or was it just objectionable framing?
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Mar 12, 2019 19:32
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juche avocado posted:lmao that owns and that explains a lot of what I've seen in quickly looking this up lol one of the ironies about the acw and certain parts of the left like howard zinn is that they essentially accepted the "lost cause" mythos: in the sense that they think the war wasn't because of slavery it was evil capitalist north oppressing the south
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Mar 12, 2019 19:32
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The Civil War thing might have been a fact my brain made up. I definitely remember reading about the US running recruitment ads overseas at one point or another in highschool APUSH. Typo posted:They were able to do so because MacArthur is a moron, and also they did not do very well once they crossed the 38th parallel The thesis of the thread is that the US military sucks despite its technological advantage.
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Mar 12, 2019 19:33
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Feldegast42 posted:Found the Project for the New American Century rebrand yep
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Mar 12, 2019 19:34
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General Dog posted:So was it a lie, or was it just objectionable framing? it's true that there were lots of immigrants in the union armies (because the mid-1800s northern US had lots of immigrants so even if you came like 20 years ago you counted) but the idea that there were hundreds of thousands of fresh off boat immigrants who arrived specifically to fight in union armies is bullshit Typo has issued a correction as of 19:37 on Mar 12, 2019 |
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Mar 12, 2019 19:34
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Mantis42 posted:
the US military while having utterly embarrassing moments is pretty good relative to other militaries if you want to look at a bad moment for china look at their 1979 invasion of vietnam
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Mar 12, 2019 19:35
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nobody has a good time invading vietnam
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Mar 12, 2019 19:37
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1994 Toyota Celica posted:nobody has a good time invading vietnam China actually successfully conquered and held northern vietnam for a long time in imperial times
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Mar 12, 2019 19:38
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General Dog posted:So was it a lie, or was it just objectionable framing? a framing can be a lie I'm having a very hard time finding anything that explicitly says "and lo, these regiments were filled with irish mercenaries promised land in the west," to be separated from what I can find: "there were a decent amount of Irish-Americans in this army, and German-Americans in this one, and...." like, shock! there are lots of recent immigrants and 1st generation descendants of immigrant families in the civil war era united states! also i return to my rhetorical question, knowing now that the goalposts never moved: let's pretend you emigrate from Germany because (and only because) you saw a sweet poster that promised you land in the Great Frontier you join up congrats you're now an american even though you were a german two months ago how does this dispute the implicit claim that it was almost-entirely-to-mostly americans (...and slaves :/) who died in the meatgrinder of the american civil war (psst it doesn't, unless we literally hired german mercs again like we did in the revolutionary war; but also didn't lots of those dudes just end up becoming citizens anyway. whatever.)
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Mar 12, 2019 19:40
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Typo posted:China actually successfully conquered and held northern vietnam for a long time in imperial times yeah, they did, the french took the place over too obviously, that doesn't mean either party had a good time of it what i've read of the ming campaigns in dai viet paints a picture of misery, waste and diplomatic cross-purposes surpassed only when the yuan invaded in the previous dynasty and the glue of their horn recurve bows started to melt from the weather
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Mar 12, 2019 19:41
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juche avocado posted:
The idea that China just human-waved its way into victory in Korea cuz they had lot sof soldiers is also bullshit btw, human waves don't work against modern firepower and according to wikipedia (heh) the total number of Chinese+NK soldiers and UN soldiers were pretty similar in 1951 or so.
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Mar 12, 2019 19:42
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1994 Toyota Celica posted:yeah, they did, the french took the place over too obviously, that doesn't mean either party had a good time of it oh yeah, not saying anybody is gonna have a pleasant time of it even when you "win"
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Mar 12, 2019 19:43
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also there was a famine going on in europe and also republican rumblings so yk there were a whole lot of reasons people might have to end up in america during the civil war I don't think we ran a Who Referred You? Answer So They Can Get A $20 Tax Credit! question on all newcomers
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Mar 12, 2019 19:43
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Typo posted:The idea that China just human-waved its way into victory in Korea cuz they had lot sof soldiers is also bullshit btw, human waves don't work against modern firepower and according to wikipedia (heh) the total number of Chinese+NK soldiers and UN soldiers were pretty similar in 1951 or so. well ok that's weird (that numbers were pretty similar) i meant as a resupplying depleted forces thing not a clog their guns with our bodies thing but i will recalibrate regardless
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Mar 12, 2019 19:44
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juche avocado posted:also there was a famine going on in europe and also republican rumblings so yk there were a whole lot of reasons people might have to end up in america during the civil war yeah the other thing is who is an immigrant in this case? I mean Irish famine occured in the late 1840s so if you came over back then by 1861 you were only in america for like 10 years or so are you still an immigrant or are you american now
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Mar 12, 2019 19:45
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juche avocado posted:well ok that's weird (that numbers were pretty similar) basically china won because they were able to infiltrate corps sized units on UN flanks without detection and did this over and over again for like 6 month because they were able to take advantage of their own -lack- of logistics and heavy weapon to use terrain impassable to heavier units. They were able to turn a tactical disadvantage into an operation advantage. human waves did occur, but when it did occur it was when the PVA already isolated and partially surrounded a smaller force and then suddenly attack under the cover of night to overwhelm an inferior force, then as the US unit retreated, ambush them again to destroy it. And once you destroyed 1 unit the whole UN line becomes unhinged so they had to retreat (and can be ambushed again) and the process repeats itself. So yeah accounts where "we ran out of ammo cuz there were so many Chinese" is true, it's just that they ran out of ammo and had no backup because they were already placed into a partial encirclement to begin with. PVA tactic was executed in an extremely sophisticated and intelligent manner over and over again. If you play HOI, it was more "infiltration" tactic than human wave as we think of british at the sommes etc. Once the line stalemated at the 38th parallel the PVA tried frontal human waves and it ended up slaughtering their soldiers for no real gain. Typo has issued a correction as of 19:54 on Mar 12, 2019 |
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Mar 12, 2019 19:51
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The whole concept of "human wave" is vastly overstated to try and imply Second World powers didn't care about casualties.Typo posted:if you want to look at a bad moment for china look at their 1979 invasion of vietnam China accomplished what they set out to do, which was to prove a point to the Soviet Union that their support didn't count in China's back yard because they were powerless to do anything. Not saying it was easy for them, but if they wanted to conquer Vietnam they could have done it with sheer inertia. They didn't do it because occupying Vietnam is stupid, and Hanoi was so well defended that Deng would have lost the political victory he was trying to achieve with all the casualties they would have taken.
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Mar 12, 2019 20:09
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also in AP US History they tried to teach me that Maryland didn't secede because "Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus," which......... technically yes that's true, but that's not really the story at all, and that led poor confused nth grade me to think that for some reason Maryland's government wanted to be allowed to hold people w/o cause and Lincoln was like "sure yeah if u promise to not be the Confederate bread of a DC sandwich" but no it's literally that Lincoln had secessionist(s) arrested and held him (them? iirc it was one guy in particular?) without cause lmao this was never ever ever ever explained and the correct answer on the quiz was literally "Because Lincoln suspended habeas corpus" and ighdhdbxb
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Mar 12, 2019 20:09
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American education is horrible, it is known
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Mar 12, 2019 20:12
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Lincoln suspending habeas corpus is always something that libertarian freaks try to harp on as being tyrannical, even though persecuting secessionists was obviously correct.
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Mar 12, 2019 20:12
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:
This is true but the PLA was also a complete dumpster fire during the invasion quote:Not saying it was easy for them, but if they wanted to conquer Vietnam they could have done it with sheer inertia. the PLA was enough of a dumpster fire in 1979 even with serious numerical advantage in a longer war they probably still would have lost esp since vietnam had soviet aid
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Mar 12, 2019 20:12
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Typo posted:This is true but the PLA was also a complete dumpster fire during the invasion The speculation is that this was also part of the point. That Deng could prove the army was trash and needed reforms. Typo posted:the PLA was enough of a dumpster fire in 1979 even with serious numerical advantage in a longer war they probably still would have lost esp since vietnam had soviet aid hostilities persisted on the border throughout the 80s. it wouldn't have taken long to reform the Peoples' Army and attempt conquest.
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Mar 12, 2019 20:14
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