|
aphid_licker posted:Franz Josef Strauß has the most fuckin expressive face. GIS him, it's a wild ride.
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2019 19:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 11:03 |
|
|
Marxist-Jezzinist posted:thanks franz josef strauss I mean, are you disagreeing? E Germany’s denazification was just as ineffective as W Germany’s, only they didn’t have the public reckoning about it that the west did in the 60s. They also had an really more problematic framing of the Holocaust, how it was remembered and memorialized, etc.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2019 19:46
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:I mean, are you disagreeing? No
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2019 19:50
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:I mean, are you disagreeing? E Germany’s denazification was just as ineffective as W Germany’s, only they didn’t have the public reckoning about it that the west did in the 60s.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2019 19:53
|
|
|
I am not actually a marxist, a jezzinist, or The East Germany Defender (unless we are talking about cute little cars). E:. I prefer my bearded 19th century political theorists russian as hell ContinuityNewTimes fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Mar 14, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2019 19:53
|
|
|
Ah misread it. I thought you were comparing Hey Guns to Herr Spiegel Affair or something. Just wasn’t parsing. My bad.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2019 19:54
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:east germany was the same, anyone who tries to tell you it was better is selling something All of the fascists ended up in the West, and they'll sneak back over unless we build this defensive rampart. Not a wall, mind you, that's entirely different.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2019 20:06
|
|
|
Jobbo_Fett posted:manned torpedos ...what? How? Why?
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2019 21:53
|
|
|
Tree Bucket posted:...what? How? Why? Italian frogmen were well regarded, and in Italy's proud tradition, they would be used in New York with no means of recovering them because suicidal one-way missions are perfect for such limited gains!
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2019 22:00
|
|
|
Tree Bucket posted:...what? How? Why?   The Decima Flottiglia MAS was a frogman commando unit assigned to use them. You would ride them underwater close to a ship, leave them floating or attach them magnetically, and set the timer for detonation and swim away. On December 19, 1941, the divers disabled two British battleships in the Alexandria harbor with them.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2019 22:02
|
|
|
Jobbo_Fett posted:Italian frogmen were well regarded, and in Italy's proud tradition, they would be used in New York with no means of recovering them because suicidal one-way missions are perfect for such limited gains!  the best thing to do with these elite, talented, highly trained sailors would be to kill them for nothing
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2019 22:04
|
|
|
You say that as if that's a bad thing
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2019 22:29
|
|
|
Marxist-Jezzinist posted:The East Germany Defender (unless we are talking about cute little cars). also for reasons i still don't know, there's a lot of 30yw stuff in the archives in dresden. i mean what are the odds that when the whole city's burning down and exploding, this is what survives
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2019 22:32
|
|
|
Alchenar posted:Collaboration is a wide spectrum. It ranges depending on how you view it to bartering with soldiers for some of their army issue stuff (widespread, quickly forgotten by everyone) to taking part in the civil administration of the occupation (because traffic still needs to be directed, trains still need to run, taxes still need to be collected etc), to actively hunting down Jews for the Gestapo. What happened to you afterwards depended on the circumstances. And whether you were female or not. Bartering your sexual services, affections, or even association for army issue stuff and leniency was usually not quickly forgotten. A somewhat unfortunate attitude, especially given all the resistance women who acted as spies by playing on their looks...
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2019 22:42
|
|
|
chitoryu12 posted:The Decima Flottiglia MAS was a frogman commando unit assigned to use them. You would ride them underwater close to a ship, leave them floating or attach them magnetically, and set the timer for detonation and swim away. On December 19, 1941, the divers disabled two British battleships in the Alexandria harbor with them. ...okay, that makes sense. I was sort of picturing a guy with goggles jammed into a tube, clutching a tiny steering wheel.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2019 22:47
|
|
|
Tree Bucket posted:...okay, that makes sense. I was sort of picturing a guy with goggles jammed into a tube, clutching a tiny steering wheel. That was Japan.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2019 22:50
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:high quality aesthetics, strange motor scooters, food's good...what's your opinion of pebble dashing? Is there another way of finishing plaster?
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2019 22:50
|
|
|
Dance Officer posted:You say that as if that's a bad thing Mishima alt account detected
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2019 22:53
|
|
|
chitoryu12 posted:The Decima Flottiglia MAS was a frogman commando unit assigned to use them. You would ride them underwater close to a ship, leave them floating or attach them magnetically, and set the timer for detonation and swim away. On December 19, 1941, the divers disabled two British battleships in the Alexandria harbor with them. There was also the Japanese version called the Kaiten that did not involve setting a timer and swimming away
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2019 22:56
|
|
|
FuturePastNow posted:There was also the Japanese version called the Kaiten that did not involve setting a timer and swimming away Kaiten were an awful design, you had to surface the sub to man them (US airplane production graph goes here) and cockpit visibility was real bad. So you would likely either die getting in, or after you missed.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2019 23:04
|
|
|
FuturePastNow posted:There was also the Japanese version called the Kaiten that did not involve setting a timer and swimming away There's one surviving Kaiten on Oahu  Edit: holy crap where did the rest of my post go. Anyway, that specific Kaiten was actually piloted during the war, but because of a minor leak the communication and electronics gear all short circuited so instead of being launched, he just stayed stuck to the top of the sub. There's a dark anecdote from the sailor who piloted that Kaiten where he was crying and begging his broken phone to let him launch so he could take out an enemy ship, but instead he had to stay inside it until they finally pulled him out of it. Don Gato fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Mar 14, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2019 23:06
|
|
|
HEY GUNS posted:high quality aesthetics, strange motor scooters, food's good...what's your opinion of pebble dashing? They needed something to remind them that it could always be worse.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2019 23:47
|
|
|
LatwPIAT posted:And whether you were female or not. Bartering your sexual services, affections, or even association for army issue stuff and leniency was usually not quickly forgotten. i first learned about this war as a kid from LIFE's picture history of ww2, which probably had a tendency to whitewash/simplify poo poo (i can't really remember but i think it was one of those 'the only good war' type of narratives), but they had one picture of a woman with a shaved head being paraded down a french street surrounded by a jeering crowd, while she's carrying a baby she'd had with a German soldier. and i was like 'drat' i did a google image search but there are apparently a lot of pictures of women getting their heads shaved and paraded around by a mob in france, i guess it was a sort of shaming ritual that became common to some degree, and it's pretty depressing
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2019 00:11
|
|
|
The stuff about Danish collaborators reminded me of Sven Hessel, Danish Nazi War Porn Author. IIRC he claimed to have gone to Germany and gotten citizenship in the late 30s so he could join the military and that he'd been a tank driver. But it turned out he was actually this goony Nazi who'd never been in the military, was a small-time criminal in Copenhagen before the war, lived with his parents (don't recall if it was in a basement or not), and he got kicked out of the Danish Nazi party and sent to jail for stealing the party head's car and going on a joyride and crashing it before impersonating a police officer while trying to escape. Later he somehow manged to end up as an informant for the police force the Gestapo set up after the deportation of the Danish police. Post-war he was convicted of treason and sentenced to several years in prison but released after a shorter amount of time, and later made a career for himself writing lurid war porn (likely either entirely fabricated or plagiarized from actual Wehrmacht/SS people) with titles like "Legion of the Damned," "Blitzfreeze," "Monte Cassino (The Beast Regiment)," and "SS Death Bastard War Crime Brigade of Death." IIRC up until his death he maintained that he couldn't possibly be the person that'd been identified as him, because how could he have been arrested for stealing the Nazi party head's car when he was actually fighting in Russia?
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2019 05:14
|
|
C.M. Kruger posted:"SS Death Bastard War Crime Brigade of Death." Sounds like a Video Nasty.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2019 05:29
|
|
|
C.M. Kruger posted:The stuff about Danish collaborators reminded me of Sven Hessel, Danish Nazi War Porn Author. IIRC he claimed to have gone to Germany and gotten citizenship in the late 30s so he could join the military and that he'd been a tank driver. This dude kinda owns. e: I kinda missed the "informant for Gestapo" bit and that does not own HEY GUNS posted:so that's what it looks like if a german wizard tries to create a being from beer and sausages? He is def one of those mischieveous spirits from a middle age local myth that'll turn a guy into a calf for accidentally pissing on them while drunk, or some variety of Schrat. aphid_licker fucked around with this message at 10:06 on Mar 15, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2019 09:46
|
|
|
C.M. Kruger posted:"SS Death Bastard War Crime Brigade of Death." Most, if not all, of his stuff was translated into Finnish in the late 90's and I read a fair few of them. I think it shows that the author has talked to people who really were in the front, as the whole thing is this nihilistic "warcrimes, drugs, booze, murders, nothing matters but lets get high while we live".
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2019 10:43
|
|
|
oystertoadfish posted:i first learned about this war as a kid from LIFE's picture history of ww2, which probably had a tendency to whitewash/simplify poo poo (i can't really remember but i think it was one of those 'the only good war' type of narratives), but they had one picture of a woman with a shaved head being paraded down a french street surrounded by a jeering crowd, while she's carrying a baby she'd had with a German soldier. and i was like 'drat' France wasn't the only country to shave women who had relations with German soldiers and send them on a humiliation march down the main street. Norway also deported all Norwegian women who'd married German soldiers: I have a friend whose grandmother ended up deported to East Germany. Their grandmother didn't speak German at the time, which isolated her and basically left her a friendless stay-at-home wife whose only connection to the world around her was a traumatized veteran.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2019 12:16
|
|
|
Cyrano4747 posted:They also had an really more problematic framing of the Holocaust, how it was remembered and memorialized, etc. Can you expand on this a bit? Genuine question, I'd really like to know.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2019 12:41
|
|
|
Yeah the post war process of dealing with the Nazis was ... messy. Quisling and a score other high-ups getting tried and executed for treason is one thing, but there was quite a bit of vigilante mobs and people using the opportunities to settle personal scores.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2019 12:42
|
|
|
Gervasius posted:Can you expand on this a bit? Genuine question, I'd really like to know. Short version is that they identified a nebulous group of “victims of fascism” that encompassed everyone the Nazis has done lovely things to. They didn’t officially recognize the Jews as different from, for example, German communists sent to concentration camps. This gets doubly lovely because “victim of fascism” was an officially recognized protected class in the DDR with a liters membership card and the status entailed you to preferential hiring for government jobs etc. what this means is that persecution of communists dominated the Nazi war crimes discussion to the point that it completely obscured the fundamental racist nature of the regime. This is a big part of why the east never came to terms with the racist nature of the third reich and it’s crimes in the way the west did. It was all framed as essentially political and inside a Marxist-Leninist framework, as the last gasps of end stage capitalism lashing out against the people’s vanguard. It’s not the only reason (economic issues etc come into play in a profound way) but it’s a big part of why neo Nazi movements in Germany concentrated in the east for decades after unification.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2019 12:48
|
|
|
LatwPIAT posted:France wasn't the only country to shave women who had relations with German soldiers and send them on a humiliation march down the main street. Norway also deported all Norwegian women who'd married German soldiers: I have a friend whose grandmother ended up deported to East Germany. Their grandmother didn't speak German at the time, which isolated her and basically left her a friendless stay-at-home wife whose only connection to the world around her was a traumatized veteran. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 13:02 on Mar 15, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2019 12:54
|
|
|
Sven Hessel's entire writings are available for Kindle and in print through Amazon Germany with some decently slickly designed, recent-looking covers. Is that poo poo bad enough that I should write to them about taking it down for whatever good that might do? e: or I'll point some specialized antifash journos at the stuff and see if they can't raise a stink. aphid_licker fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Mar 15, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2019 12:56
|
|
|
Jobbo_Fett posted:Italian frogmen were well regarded, and in Italy's proud tradition, they would be used in New York with no means of recovering them because suicidal one-way missions are perfect for such limited gains! Italy made a Japan flight, if they had been bigger or lasted longer I can see them succeeding at frogmen assault NY docks The real damage would have been however America reacted. The Normandie was neutralized by a fire that IIRC was started by welders making mods to the seized ocean liner, despite the actual chief designer being on the scene, saying "guys, we need to open the sea chocks, let the ship flood so it settles to the bottom. All this firefighter water is gonna make it turn turtle and that's way worse" and everybody ignored him, and the Normandie flops onto its side Cue a panic about saboteurs
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2019 13:26
|
|
|
aphid_licker posted:Sven Hessel's entire writings are available for Kindle and in print through Amazon Germany with some decently slickly designed, recent-looking covers. Is that poo poo bad enough that I should write to them about taking it down for whatever good that might do? If you read the works you realise that it's prominently anti nazi, and portrays the wermacht in a less kind light revisionists portray. It's not Nazi propoganda, and mildly entertaining at most.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2019 13:33
|
|
|
aphid_licker posted:Sven Hessel's entire writings are available for Kindle and in print through Amazon Germany with some decently slickly designed, recent-looking covers. Is that poo poo bad enough that I should write to them about taking it down for whatever good that might do? It's Hassel, and I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve. Censorship to own the... uh... dead fake veterans? Maybe you should read the books first.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2019 13:33
|
|
|
is there a scholarly work on the ww2 warporn that was slithering around our collective subconscious in the 50s and 60s? cause that poo poo was weird
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2019 13:38
|
|
|
spiky butthole posted:If you read the works you realise that it's prominently anti nazi, and portrays the wermacht in a less kind light revisionists portray. It's not Nazi propoganda, and mildly entertaining at most. Nenonen posted:It's Hassel, and I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve. Censorship to own the... uh... dead fake veterans? Maybe you should read the books first. Didn't expect the stuff to be anti-nazi what with it being written by what kinda sounds like a nazi, if not a very good one. At best from what it was decribed like itt it seemed like nihilist violence porn and that being less readily available is good.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2019 13:39
|
|
|
So it the phrase "last ditch effort" of military origin?
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2019 13:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 11:03 |
|
|
I haven't read Hassel since my teens and I just knew it hadn't aged well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6-YPiqOh_w
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2019 13:50
|
|